70 replies to this topic

[Abaddun]

Marlowe Lecter, on 10 July 2018 - 06:41 AM, said:

Its very telling that not a single person has mentioned TORSO TWISTING in this argument. Totally negates "pin point" alphas of lasers.

It will take you at least 0.5 seconds to react to the blast by which time 40% of the damage has gone through. The rest will depend on you twist speed.

[Grus]

NimoStar, on 09 July 2018 - 11:16 PM, said:

The problem with lasers is not that they are "overpowered" per se, but that they have no counter.

Ballistics has travel time and ammo limits which makes them dodgable. LBX and UAC also have dispersion, Gauss has charge. PPCs work similar to ballistics and also are high tonnage, most have min range.

Missiles have AMS, and depending on the type also ECM, Stealth and radar deprivation.

Against lasers, you have no specific way of defending yourself. Always pinpont damage at any distance, instantly traveling.

The solution is not to nerf laser damage then, because pros will find it a way to make it work by just following CT or most damaged component as enemies travel like they do now.

The solution is to introduce equipment which works as a counter to lasers

My proposal is this:

Reflective Armor: Reduce beam damage by -30%, 10% heavier than Standard armor, -7 slots (like ligh ferro fibrous but heavier instead of lighter)

Something like this as most of you will know what implemented in MW4 so it is already time-tested and balanced...

30% is a bit much.. maybe 15/20. But is be ok to test this out on the PTS. I would rather see stuff added than nerfs.

Abaddun, on 10 July 2018 - 07:01 AM, said:

It will take you at least 0.5 seconds to react to the blast by which time 40% of the damage has gone through. The rest will depend on you twist speed.

The average reaction time is more like .25 to .3 seconds I thought...

[Abaddun]

Grus, on 10 July 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

The average reaction time is more like .25 to .3 seconds I thought...

Considerations where given to the speed in which the player recognises the danger and takes appropriate action. Though you are probably right, 0.5 seconds is quite slow, maybe even potato slow.

[Jman5]

What they should do is use the existing AMS slot as a generic defensive slot where you can slot in 1 of 3 items: AMS, AES, or ABS. Anti Missile Shield works same as before while Anti Ballistic and Anti Energy shields just as act as a % damage reduction vs energy or ballistic weapons.

You can only equip 1 ABS and 1 AES.

What I like about this is it lets players naturally react to the prevailing meta of the day without relying on PGI to buff/nerf stuff. If everyone's running around with missiles, you max out your AMS. If everyone is boating dakka, you swap it for ABS. If it's lasers, you go AES. The double and triple AMS slotted mechs would gain new advantages as well.

But I guess some lore-guys will object because this wasn't in the manual from the 1980s.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

PPC should not be reduced by this armour.

[Korz]

I like the idea of adding the armor types to the game but I think to promote non boating you could do a 50% reduction in damage from type one and 20 increase in damage to type two and drop the internals taken. Instead just give less points per ton to the armor weights more.

Going to just make some numbers up but here goes;

Normal armor 16 points per ton
Ferro armor 20 points per ton but 7-14 internals.
Reactive armor 10 points per ton
Reflective armor 10 points per ton

Reactive armor would be 50% damage reduction against ballistic weapons, with a +20% damage from lasers.
Reflective armor would be 50% damage reduction against laser weapons, with a 20% damage from ballistics.

Now boating any one type of weapon would still work just not as well as now.

[Mystere]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 10 July 2018 - 07:37 AM, said:

PPC should not be reduced by this armour impart effects such as HUD disruption, targeting loss, highly reduced heat dissipation and heat spike.

FTFY.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Sarcasm mode enabled.

Yes, lets put in reactive armour to further neuter ballistics.

The point of reflective is to help offset the complete and total advantage that lasers have.

The more I think about it the less it seems like a good idea. It's like releasing bats to take care of the mosquito problem and then trying to figure out what to release to deal with the bats. Eventually you have honey badgers on the loose and you have to simply move away.

[Marlowe Lecter]

Abaddun, on 10 July 2018 - 07:01 AM, said:

It will take you at least 0.5 seconds to react to the blast by which time 40% of the damage has gone through. The rest will depend on you twist speed.

Even if it takes players longer to react, or your number of 40% is low, it still doesn't mean people should write off torso twisting. The original poster never mentions it and neither do any of the folks offering other suggestions in the post. That right there is the big problem. If a player doesn't twist, they are gimping themselves. Now add in one of the suggestions mentioned here, okay great, the non-torso twisting crowd now lowers the damage of lasers by a set amount, be it 10 to 50%. The players who actually do torso twist are going to lower the damage of lasers by even more. And no one took that into account when making their suggestions.

[Nightbird]

Korz, on 10 July 2018 - 07:38 AM, said:

I like the idea of adding the armor types to the game but I think to promote non boating you could do a 50% reduction in damage from type one and 20 increase in damage to type two and drop the internals taken. Instead just give less points per ton to the armor weights more.

Going to just make some numbers up but here goes;

Normal armor 16 points per ton
Ferro armor 20 points per ton but 7-14 internals.
Reactive armor 10 points per ton
Reflective armor 10 points per ton

Reactive armor would be 50% damage reduction against ballistic weapons, with a +20% damage from lasers.
Reflective armor would be 50% damage reduction against laser weapons, with a 20% damage from ballistics.

Now boating any one type of weapon would still work just not as well as now.

No need to make up stats, laser reflective armor, reactive armor, hardened armor all exist in Battletech... in 3080 and after. MWO won't mess with this so it'll be added when the year is right.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 10 July 2018 - 07:50 AM, said:

Sarcasm mode enabled.

Yes, lets put in reactive armour to further neuter ballistics LRM and hinder other missile types

Fixed that a bit because canon reactive armor doesn't actually interfere with ballistic damage beyond negating certain armor piercing capabilities of an ammo type this game (also) doesn't feature.

Maybe Korz actually meant Ballistic-Reinforced armor? ... Well, that's way beyond the current timeline of this game

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 10 July 2018 - 08:38 AM.

[Bigbacon]

Just make heat matteR!!!!

Add negative effects as it goes up. Added lower cooling and heat cap if you spike it. USE heat.
no one should be alphaing 60+ without worry and then doing it again a few seconds later.you should be immediately taken out of the battle for awhile to cooldown and lumber around because they can't move fast or twist well, hell, make weapons have a chance of not working well, ANYTHING.

Heat is a wasted mechanic in the game pretty much.

Make it matter. Heat right now is mostly a trivial thing.

Edited by Bigbacon, 10 July 2018 - 08:56 AM.

[Rafe Yomin]

NimoStar, on 09 July 2018 - 11:16 PM, said:

The problem with lasers is not that they are "overpowered" per se, but that they have no counter.

Ballistics has travel time and ammo limits which makes them dodgable. LBX and UAC also have dispersion, Gauss has charge. PPCs work similar to ballistics and also are high tonnage, most have min range.

Missiles have AMS, and depending on the type also ECM, Stealth and radar deprivation.

Against lasers, you have no specific way of defending yourself. Always pinpont damage at any distance, instantly traveling.

Pinpoint damage? Ok, i'd like to see you do pinpoint damage to a light's leg with lasers in a fight . They are hitscan, but do their damage over time. Against any moving target, you'll splash a bit. If the target is torsotwisting a bit, it'll go everywhere. Pinpoint damage is PPC's and Gauss and AC's.

Edit: as a reply to the post above about heat: pretty much. The problem with Battletech lore "balance", is that Battletech uses targeting computers. You fire on a mech, and the targeting computer tries to hit where you're hitting, or on what it's locked on. Here we just point and click. The extra heat would make troubles for the targeting computer, and make damage splash all over the mech or even straight out miss. Here everything keeps just hitting straight where we click.

Edited by Rafe Yomin, 10 July 2018 - 09:07 AM.

[FupDup]

Vellron2005, on 10 July 2018 - 12:12 AM, said:

30% is too much.. 20% seems better.

Also, add it to both Clan and IS.. Also add Reactive armor, which provides the same protection against Ballistics.

Reactive Armor protects against missiles and artillery, not ballistics. MW4 lied to you.

What you want for that is Ballistic Reinforced Armor (works against both missiles and ballistics), which is far out into the timeline.

Edited by FupDup, 10 July 2018 - 09:51 AM.

[Prototelis]

Abaddun, on 10 July 2018 - 07:01 AM, said:

It will take you at least 0.5 seconds to react to the blast by which time 40% of the damage has gone through. The rest will depend on you twist speed.

Homey, you gots to start turning before those lasers start vomiting.

Do you wait for the Gauss rifle to fire before you begin twisting? No. You read the got damn paperdoll and plan to take one on the left side before you turn and burn the dynamite in their chest cavity.

[MechaBattler]

I'd like the option. But it shouldn't be a requirement to fix laser balance. : /

Which is not to say I endorse the changes. I'd like to try them first.

Edited by MechaBattler, 10 July 2018 - 10:40 AM.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Nightbird, on 10 July 2018 - 08:12 AM, said:

No need to make up stats, laser reflective armor, reactive armor, hardened armor all exist in Battletech... in 3080 and after. MWO won't mess with this so it'll be added when the year is right.

Pretty sure it's been stated they have abandoned any kind of time line...which is fine...because it was actually quite pointless.

Bigbacon, on 10 July 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

Just make heat matteR!!!!

Add negative effects as it goes up. Added lower cooling and heat cap if you spike it. USE heat.
no one should be alphaing 60+ without worry and then doing it again a few seconds later.you should be immediately taken out of the battle for awhile to cooldown and lumber around because they can't move fast or twist well, hell, make weapons have a chance of not working well, ANYTHING.

Heat is a wasted mechanic in the game pretty much.

Make it matter. Heat right now is mostly a trivial thing.

We have coolshot. Heat has never really seemed to be a proper factor in this game. More like an anchor the player base has never really let them develop because of the drastic changes needed to make it impact mechs, which, would make boat builds cry and leave the game.


I would have been fine with their energy draw attempt if a small portion of the player base didn't go into open revolt.

Perhaps that sort of feature would work for Solaris or something of the sort. Solaris needs to play different than regular play.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 10 July 2018 - 10:56 AM.

[The Mysterious Fox]

Marlowe Lecter, on 10 July 2018 - 06:41 AM, said:

Its very telling that not a single person has mentioned TORSO TWISTING in this argument. Totally negates "pin point" alphas of lasers.

mobility nerfs, component health nerfs, engine desync, rescale and a weak mobility skill tree :/ why address that when we can pump OMEGA quirks

[Alkabides]

Laser damage reduction % should degrade as damage inflicted by say an AC or missles? Scruffs up the reflective surface.

[Grus]

Mystere, on 10 July 2018 - 07:41 AM, said:

FTFY.

Your thinking of a Plasma cannon.