91 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

process, on 15 July 2018 - 07:03 PM, said:

Biased in favor for Clans? My feeling is Clans suffer greatly when they can't maintain range, yet don't have a good variety of weapons to deal with short range. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the PTS changes made if it means more viable options.

Not faction-specific, it's a general trend. MGs, HGauss, quad LB-X, MRMs, LRMs, ATMs, and UAC spam, RAC spam, and Pulse Lasers are all DPS-oriented builds and they are some of the strongest in the game on 'Mechs like the ANH, BSW, HMN, PIR, CP-S, MCII, MAD-IIC, and even still on the KDK-3. Even laser vomit builds typically trend toward lower alphas with higher sustain because it is so easy to get pushed, and once you have expended your coolshots you better hope your team doesn't fold.

Really, the PTS changes aren't going to hammer 'Mechs like the EBJ or HBR and bigger, but they hurt the smaller ones quite a lot.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 15 July 2018 - 07:26 PM.

[Nightbird]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

Really, the PTS changes aren't going to hammer 'Mechs like the EBJ or HBR and bigger, but they hurt the smaller ones quite a lot.

Hammer them enough to be worse than similar IS Lights and Mediums?

[Y E O N N E]

Nightbird, on 15 July 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

Hammer them enough to be worse than similar IS Lights and Mediums?

In my opinion, yes. For example, I would rather take a lasers-only Locust or a Flea than a similarly built Piranha for any class of laser smaller than an ER Large.

Like, I can fit 5 tons of Medium Lasers onto a Locust for 25 damage, 17 heat, 0.9 duration 4.1 total cycle time, and still get in two extra DHS on an XL 180, one of which I could convert into another laser if I wanted to.

For comparable performance in the same bracket, the Piranha has to spend 8 tons to get 25 damage, 18 heat, 0.9 duration, 3.9 total cycle time, and gets no extra DHS with its XL 180. It has a 60 meter optimum range advantage, but a 60 meter maximum range deficit, so range works out to a wash. Otherwise it is hotter and has potentially longer burn (-15% IS laser duration nodes vs. -10% Clan). The main advantage it has is that it doesn't die when that XL side is destroyed, but otherwise the Locust is inherently higher performing. I don't consider the XL deltas to be much of an issue on 'Mechs that small and that squishy.

ER Mediums on PTS make it look even more dire, because cER Mediums require an extra 0.35 seconds of staring and 4 points of heat to do only 1.25 more points of damage when you look at 5x cERML vs. 5x isERML. The 40 meter range advantage on cERML just doesn't count for much when you can run faster than 70 kph. Heavy Mediums have even longer burn time and run even hotter with just three.

There is just nothing in the Clan arsenal that compares to the IS Medium-class Laser on Lights.

[Nightbird]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2018 - 08:20 PM, said:

Like, I can fit 5 tons of Medium Lasers onto a Locust for 25 damage, 17 heat, 0.9 duration 4.1 total cycle time, and still get in two extra DHS on an XL 180, one of which I could convert into another laser if I wanted to.

Try 5 tons of ER smalls instead, or micros.

[lazorbeamz]

Daurock, on 15 July 2018 - 12:10 PM, said:

My opinion on the C-ERML is Rather Mixed right now. I think that on Live, it is indeed Way too strong. I think that the mechs that are boating them on the PTS need a little help.

Essentially, clan ERMLs on the patch seem like they the same heat as IS ERMLs. The extra heat is basically negated by the extra sinks right now, so they run about the same, heat wise. The clan one though, has other challenges on the patch that the IS one doesn't - Namely, duration, and the fact that the chassis that carry them are not as good as the usual IS suspects.

Further, I am coming to note that the clan ERML just seems lackluster to the cerLL now. being just as hot per damage, with shorter range. I think we need the cerML to be more significantly sustainable than the same build running with ERLLs.

Those two things lead me to believe the right path is for the cerML a simple heat gen reduction, with no additional changes to duration, or cooldown. Bringing the heat down on a per laser weapon to the same level as the IS ERML should make the clan Laser boats capable of better sustained fire, (due to the usual extra heatsinks carried) at the cost of duration when compared to IS mechs.
It also helps Separate the Clan Medium and large class lasers in the heavy and assault mechs, since the clan medium lasers would actually have a firepower advantage once they get into range when facing off with a mech running larges. Right now, the heavy and assault chassis are usually slot-locked, meaning that even if an assault mech wanted to carry mediums with more sinks, instead of larges, he really cant. Couple that with the fact that the CERLL is an incredibly efficient Damage/SLOT weapon, and you find it extremely valuable in the bigger chassis. It's partly why ceRLL spam is going to become an even bigger thing if the changes go through as planned.

Honestly, the same heat change can probably be applied to the clan Heavy Large. Right now, it also doesn't have the range to justify it's terrible Heat/Damage ratio, and just falls flat compared to both the erMLs, and ERLLs. Dropping the heat from 16 to 13, maybe 14 would probably be all that is needed there.

CerML vs CerLL
Well they are similarly hot per damage now but. CerML dies 5.25 damage per ton with less range. CerLL does only 2.5 damage per ton with more range. The tradeoff is obvious. Cerml is more sustainable already because you have so much spare tonnage for those extra DHS. 1erll = 2 erml + 2 dhs.

Maaaaaaaybe we only need a duration buff for cerml and thats it.

CerLL will be popular post patch. But only on assault mechs. Big lasers for big mechs this is appropriate right?. The heavies will not have enough cooling to always afford erll boating.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 15 July 2018 - 11:47 PM.

[Daurock]

lazorbeamz, on 15 July 2018 - 11:18 PM, said:

CerML vs CerLL
Well they are similarly hot per damage now but. CerML dies 5.25 damage per ton with less range. CerLL does only 2.5 damage per ton with more range. The tradeoff is obvious. Cerml is more sustainable already because you have so much spare tonnage for those extra DHS. 1erll = 2 erml + 2 dhs.

Maaaaaaaybe we only need a duration buff for cerml and thats it.

CerLL will be popular post patch. But only on assault mechs. Big lasers for big mechs this is appropriate right?. The heavies will not have enough cooling to always afford erll boating.

I would argue that even all the way down to some mediums, the ERLL is going to largely displace the ERML. Take the Huntsman, for example. Fitting 3xERLL STILL allows you to fit all your available slots with heatsinks. Running 6x ERMLS in actually allows you fewer maximum heatsinks than the larges do, because you run out of slots. Thus, the huntsman actually runs cooler running a full LL build than he would running with a full set of meds. Really, anything running with endo+Ferro, and having more than roughly 20 tons of pod space (Available well into medium territory) is going to be better off running the Larges over mediums, simply due to Space constraints. A full set of clan mediums is going to become a VERY rare thing. Perhaps that is as intended, (After all, there are also very few pure IS ERML boats out there)

As you said, you could simply reduce the duration of the cERML, making the mechs use them basically copies of IS mechs. (Running with higher heat, but with more sinks makes them functionally the same heat) I think though, that after playing a bit on the PTS, I'd prefer Not to make them a copy, but instead give them an advantage over IS sustained damage, (done by bringing the heat/damage level on par with the IS one, and letting the extra heatsinks presumable also present on the mech do the rest) and have the burn duration remain a clan disadvantage. Additionally, it makes the medium laser a functionally better damage dealer compared to the cerLL, in exchange for its shorter range.

As a side-note, this discussion could probably apply even more strongly with the HLL- In most of the heavy mechs, it is the laser actually being replaced . It too probably needs a bit of a heat drop, to correspond to its much larger space requirement than the erLL.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

The IS Fanboying in here is real.

[lazorbeamz]

Daurock, on 16 July 2018 - 05:32 AM, said:

I would argue that even all the way down to some mediums, the ERLL is going to largely displace the ERML. Take the Huntsman, for example. Fitting 3xERLL STILL allows you to fit all your available slots with heatsinks. Running 6x ERMLS in actually allows you fewer maximum heatsinks than the larges do, because you run out of slots. Thus, the huntsman actually runs cooler running a full LL build than he would running with a full set of meds. Really, anything running with endo+Ferro, and having more than roughly 20 tons of pod space (Available well into medium territory) is going to be better off running the Larges over mediums, simply due to Space constraints. A full set of clan mediums is going to become a VERY rare thing. Perhaps that is as intended, (After all, there are also very few pure IS ERML boats out there)

As you said, you could simply reduce the duration of the cERML, making the mechs use them basically copies of IS mechs. (Running with higher heat, but with more sinks makes them functionally the same heat) I think though, that after playing a bit on the PTS, I'd prefer Not to make them a copy, but instead give them an advantage over IS sustained damage, (done by bringing the heat/damage level on par with the IS one, and letting the extra heatsinks presumable also present on the mech do the rest) and have the burn duration remain a clan disadvantage. Additionally, it makes the medium laser a functionally better damage dealer compared to the cerLL, in exchange for its shorter range.

As a side-note, this discussion could probably apply even more strongly with the HLL- In most of the heavy mechs, it is the laser actually being replaced . It too probably needs a bit of a heat drop, to correspond to its much larger space requirement than the erLL.

its probably true that you can fill mediums with ERLL and DHS. But you want some erml always if you want to maximize your alpha strike being twice as good when compared to erll. So using erml is pretty inevitable on mediums. And on the heavies you can mass DHS on top of it.

If you want maximum alpha you always first stack erml and then add anything else you want. heavy lasers or erll. Erml come first always.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 16 July 2018 - 06:20 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Nightbird, on 15 July 2018 - 09:00 PM, said:

Try 5 tons of ER smalls instead, or micros.

I have, it just isn't comparable if I am trying to poke. The ER smalls will give you the same damage per gun and better heat management by being half weight, but they still burn for a fifth of a second longer and they don't have the range. The micros are just an alternate way of doing the same thing as cSPL which, even after nerfs, is really the only laser the Clans have with the right mixture of range, heat, damage, and duration for classic fast Lights...but as I said above, the IS have that same bracket pinned.

And that's on Live; PTS is just flatly less effective than that in trading.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 16 July 2018 - 06:25 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

lazorbeamz, on 16 July 2018 - 06:15 AM, said:

its probably true that you can fill mediums with ERLL and DHS. But you want some erml always if you want to maximize your alpha strike being twice as good when compared to erll. So using erml is pretty inevitable on mediums. And on the heavies you can mass DHS on top of it.

Yeah, no it's not inevitable at all. Seriously? too good to pass up, with these stats? your sorely mistaken. cMPL will offer better overall performance and alpha, and the cHML will offer a slightly higher alpha for less tonnage.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 16 July 2018 - 06:20 AM.

[Nightbird]

The push for larger lasers will cost tonnage, which means less DHS and engine. The end point is larger alpha than IS, more DHS than IS, more DPS than IS, and faster than IS. The gap will be smaller though, so many tears are expected.


I still would prefer energy draw over this, assuming it only applies to energy weapons (incl gauss) and is a simple 1 damage = 1 energy formula. Get rid of the damned GH for these wespons.

[lazorbeamz]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 16 July 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

Yeah, no it's not inevitable at all. Seriously? too good to pass up, with these stats? your sorely mistaken. cMPL will offer better overall performance and alpha, and the cHML will offer a slightly higher alpha for less tonnage.

cMPL for alpha? really poor. 3 damage per ton against 5 damage/ton for a cerml. Cerml is 66% better then medpulse for alpha strikes lol.

Heavy mediums have been nerfed to keep them on the same level with cerml alpha strike wise because on PTS 6 cerml do the same alpha as 4 HML.
there are tradeoffs however: cerml fire farther and have lower durations. HML are more heat efficient and work better for hardpoint starved mechs plus they save you tonnage.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 16 July 2018 - 06:29 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

lazorbeamz, on 16 July 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

cMPL for alpha? really poor. 3 damage per ton against 5 damage/ton for a cerml. Cerml is 66% better then medpulse for alpha strikes lol.

Hmmm, it's almost like Ghost heat exists and 31.5 damage is a terrible alpha strike. How about you tell me what clan medium wants to run six 5.25 damage medium lasers?

[Jack Shayu Walker]

It's not the Arctic Wolf, it's not The Ice Ferret, it's not the Hunchie-IIC, it's not the Huntsman, It's certainly not the Nova, It's not the Stormcrow, the Shadowcat can't, is it the Black Lanner?

Nightbird, on 16 July 2018 - 06:26 AM, said:

The push for larger lasers will cost tonnage, which means less DHS and engine. The end point is larger alpha than IS, more DHS than IS, more DPS than IS, and faster than IS. The gap will be smaller though, so many tears are expected.


I still would prefer energy draw over this, assuming it only applies to energy weapons (incl gauss) and is a simple 1 damage = 1 energy formula. Get rid of the damned GH for these wespons.

So what's going through your head is: "Clams OP, clams is only cryin cuz Clams won't be OP anymore!"?

[Nightbird]

I play plenty of Clan mechs, have rank 10 at least for all Clan factions. Clan lasers are superior to IS, and will still be superior after this nerf. I don't forsee any challenges with winning on Clan side with this change, that's with the tonnage difference.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Nightbird, on 16 July 2018 - 07:43 AM, said:

I play plenty of Clan mechs, have rank 10 at least for all Clan factions. Clan lasers are superior to IS, and will still be superior after this nerf. I don't forsee any challenges with winning on Clan side with this change, that's with the tonnage difference.

Well then I would have to really call into question your foresight XD Mr. "Play Plenty of Clan Mechs". I thought your argument was "well cERMeds are worse than IS ERMeds, but it's fine, clanners will use them anyway." Please, do explain how a mere 40 meters and a token .25 damage outweigh the substantial duration advantage the IS ERMeds enjoy?

The fact is clan lasers will not be superior after this change. Many, like the cERMed especially, will be outright inferior.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 16 July 2018 - 07:52 AM.

[-Spectre]

lazorbeamz, on 14 July 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

Medium and lights should resort to heavy medium and heavy large lasers or even who knows? small pulse or er small. Anyway clan lights used to be overpowered with the old lasers. like that arctic cheetah with 6 cerml 42 hitscan alpha at 450m with jumpjets. Come on its just silly. It is crazy OP. Try doing the same with sphere lights and see how it works for yourself?
Sphere gets like 30 damage at 300meters instead lolz.

What about the 5 mpl Wolfhounds? It shreds any Clan light it comes across, holds its own against Clan mediums, and is even formidable to Clan heavies. The fact is, alpha doesn't matter if it isn't repeatable, because the engagement inevitably closes range to where you can no longer duck behind cover to cool down after each alpha.

[Rusharn]

Nightbird, on 16 July 2018 - 07:43 AM, said:

I play plenty of Clan mechs, have rank 10 at least for all Clan factions. Clan lasers are superior to IS, and will still be superior after this nerf. I don't forsee any challenges with winning on Clan side with this change, that's with the tonnage difference.

The Clan Lasers have not been Superior for a long time, while having longer range less slots and being lighter, the IS lasers, fire faster, cycle faster, and run cooler and in the case of the ERmed the IS version is just as light and slot efficient as the CERMed. In fact the Clan and IS Ermeds on live have comparable performance, and if Mixed tech happened on live righ tnow, there are several Clan mechs I would consider putting the IS ERMeds on. But with the PTS change the CERMed is an inferior weapon system compared the the IS ERmed. As the ERMed lasers are the mainstay weapon systems for both sides their performance above all else needs to stay comparable. With the PTS change the cERmed is inferior, not by a little bit, cripplingly so. Running a 7 ERMed + UAC20 Bounty Hunter, no clan heavy that was using lasers could stand against me. The IS weapons fire faster, cooler, and with the pin point damage I was able to core right through the center of the Clan mechs made easier as they often shut down, assuming they didn't explode from over heating on overrides. They don't stand a chance.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Rusharn, on 16 July 2018 - 08:45 AM, said:

The Clan Lasers have not been Superior for a long time, while having longer range less slots and being lighter, the IS lasers, fire faster, cycle faster, and run cooler and in the case of the ERmed the IS version is just as light and slot efficient as the CERMed. In fact the Clan and IS Ermeds on live have comparable performance, and if Mixed tech happened on live righ tnow, there are several Clan mechs I would consider putting the IS ERMeds on. But with the PTS change the CERMed is an inferior weapon system compared the the IS ERmed. As the ERMed lasers are the mainstay weapon systems for both sides their performance above all else needs to stay comparable. With the PTS change the cERmed is inferior, not by a little bit, cripplingly so. Running a 7 ERMed + UAC20 Bounty Hunter, no clan heavy that was using lasers could stand against me. The IS weapons fire faster, cooler, and with the pin point damage I was able to core right through the center of the Clan mechs made easier as they often shut down, assuming they didn't explode from over heating on overrides. They don't stand a chance.

**** sign me up for a 12 IS Std Medium Laser Nova.

[Nightbird]

Duration on C-ERML is a pretty common comment, will probably be reduced.