23 replies to this topic

[MechTech Dragoon]

We all know coolshots are a massive tool for high alpha builds, and anything that needs allot of heat in general, allowing them to pump out WAY more damage than they should. So, how do we fix it?
Well, A. We remove coolshots, i know, i like them too, but honestly they make allot of my builds effective when they shouldn't be. For example, on my pulse kodiak with 8 medium pulse and 1 large pulse, because of coolshots, i can hit for 61, pinpoint one location, in 1 second, with no overheat risk or ammo consumption, and i can do it again about 2 seconds later. That,s a dead atlas, bang, done. Why? coolshot.

SO! instead, we add in this lil bad boy http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Coolant_Pod
Weighs a ton, takes a slot (which doesnt sound like much, but will matter in those high alpha builds. The weight and slot has to come from something.).
Instead of reducing your heat by 14 points for one second (thats the equivelent of having 93 extra double heat sinks....not okay.) Thiss will double the effectiveness of single heat sinks by double(or a percentage), and double heat sinks by half(again, or a percentage), for x seconds (to be decided by the balance team). It will also be an equipment, so would either take an extra button, or, take up a weapon group. Meaning your coolant pod is really only as effective as your coolant system is. As an extra disadvantage, it blows up when struck, just like a gauss rifle would. (Id suggest even after use, as it is a powerful tool, but it could be treated like ammo and only explode if unused, again to be decided by the balance team). It would also have a limit to being used one at a time. (they are capable of doing this, gauss has a firing limit).

So for example again in my wubiak, instead of being able to vent 14 points of heat in one second, with no sacrifice to tonnage or slots. With a coolant pod A. i would have to change my build, (sadface) and B. as it stands it would vent 5.85 points of heat over a duration. That is a massive, massive difference to my potential damage output, and a needed one, because destroying an assault mech in two shots is really not alright.



If anything, consumables in their entirety (along with their skill tree section) should just be removed outright. Air and arti strikes a filling a niche of area denial that lrms should be capable of through low cooldowns and massive spreads, hitting multiple enemies clustered together.
They are also devestating against lighter mechs, trying to weave in and out of combat often getting hit by allied arti strikes.

Coolshot reasoning is mentioned above. With it could also come, in all likely hood a removal of ghost heat in its entirety. Without something to bring your heat down quickly, you'll see a hell of allot more people stagger firing their weapons....or ending up dead from being a sitting duck.

UAVS could stay, but instead of being a cost, be a baseline one shot use item equipped on every mech. OR! again, like coolant pods, be an equipment, but requiring ammo.

But aside from all of these factors, consumables are a P2W system. I have a friend who doesn't want to use more than one consumable on his mech because it would cost him 80k a match to play it. Which makes the grind worse, which...if im not mistaken, the skill tree and cbill grind is complained about ALLOT.

Edited by XkrX Dragoon, 27 July 2018 - 08:26 AM.

[Darth Vaper]

Better solution than ultranerfing the clan lasers.

[Bremman]

Cool shots were controversial on release and should never have been put into the game to begin with. They really should be removed and are absolutely one of the factors reducing the fun in the game. New players don't even understand what is happening when they die to a meta build using coolshots.

[Green Spleen Submarine]

Woah man, that's far too reasonable. No way's its getting added to the game

[Spectralfx]

Coolshots are part of a problem, but down the road, I am unsure if it would fix most of the imbalances we see right now.

One thing is for sure, the rethinking of that mechanic that is far too rewarding to hot builds wouldn't hurt the current meta. We can see this in the Solaris Arena, since those builds are pretty much non-viable in that environment where Coolshots are not even allowed to begin with.

+1 to OP

[Capn Cat]

Background: I am in the camp of those who think c-Lasers are deserving of a small, carefully-considered nerf. The goal would be to leave them and the builds using them viable, while shifting them closer in performance to their counters.

My critique of the current proposed changes on the PTS is that it disproportionately affects sub-par mechs, such as the Ice Ferret, while leaving the stated target of the MCII relatively unscathed.

All this leads up to my feedback on your own proposal - It targets all mechs equally, regardless of their effectiveness. Beyond the changes on the PTS it also affects IS laserboats, and any other mech which runs hot - such as SRMs.

Mechs completely unaffected would be MG, LBX, Gauss Rifles

[Cyrion]

Too bad there's one glaring problem with your suggestion, OP.

PGI wants consumables in the game so people waste C-bills.

Everyone knew the Consumable Tree was broken as hell the minute it was released back last summer. Yet ultra-strikes didn't get nerfed for six months or more. Coolshots got a pretty quick nerf because they were just absurdly broken, but they didn't get nerfed again until just recently.

Most game developers who care about their game and who have a conscience don't change the game to generate more money. They do it through cosmetics and other silly stuff which has no bearing on gameplay. Not PGI. If they can find a way to get you to waste your resources, increase your grind, and encourage you to spend more money, they'll do it.

Hell, that's the entire reason for the Skill Maze and the ridiculous 91 points per mech. They want you to be frustrated grinding out mechs and being handicapped the entire time. They want you to have to blow 4.5 million per mech just to get it up to level with everyone else. And that's AFTER spending millions on Double Heatsinks, Endo, Ferro, etc. which costs the same for Lights as it does for Assaults.

Consumables aren't going away. PGI loves the fact that even if you're a great player you'll only ever be making around 250k C-bills a match on average. Which means after you blow 2 Coolshots a game (which outside of some Gauss/LBX only builds you're basically forced to do to be competitive) you're down to 170k. Throw in UAVs or strikes and now you've made a whopping 90K C-bills for the match. GG.

[omnomtom]

I'm voting yes, but with a little proviso - I don't think there's any need for coolant pods to be added. Removing cool shots would go a long way to tuning down high alpha builds without crippling lower alpha mediums and lights like a nerf to medium lasers would. But cooling pods as in the lore run counter to that idea - their usefulness scales directly with the number of heatsinks you have equipped, which makes them a far stronger piece of equipment on assaults than it is on smaller 'mechs.

[Soulless86]

While you're at it get rid of consumables, I know they're a C-bill and MC sink. But they're a stupid mechanic and a lowly player of one month can see that in the first week of playing this game.

people say Arty strikes are to stop people from camping, isn't that what LRMs are supposed to do?

Edited by Soulless86, 16 July 2018 - 12:37 AM.

[Chester Rico]

Soulless86, on 16 July 2018 - 12:28 AM, said:

While you're at it get rid of consumables, I know they're a C-bill and MC sink.

That is exactly why they're not going to get removed.

[Hexenwulf]

Due to skill tree and the seemingly-intended cbill/mc sink of coolshot, Perhaps it could be implemented as a hybrid of the two (maybe make the coding less complex)?

Coolant pod equipped allows for coolshot to be equipped. This way, you still need to pay 40k to refill but also at a cost of 1t of payload. Additionally, the coolshot skill nodes are not instantly invalidated.

A second coolant pod could be equipped only if the coolant reserves node unlocked.

I'm still not convinced even coolant pods would fix the problem. It would give some other balancing levers though, possibly higher tonnage of coolant pod, or extra crit space required, or even having an extra chance of being destroyed by crit, creating tradeoffs for builds that really want to have a temporary bonus to effective heat capacity.

*edit: i should read the OP in full before posting...

Edited by Hexenwulf, 16 July 2018 - 10:24 AM.

[IronEleven]

Would it help? Yes. Would PGI do it? No.

[catsonmeth]

Soulless86, on 16 July 2018 - 12:28 AM, said:

While you're at it get rid of consumables, I know they're a C-bill and MC sink. But they're a stupid mechanic and a lowly player of one month can see that in the first week of playing this game.

people say Arty strikes are to stop people from camping, isn't that what LRMs are supposed to do?

I hate strikes. Way too powerful vs lights and mediums. Sure, a light can get out of the way faster, but that's only if it sees the smoke in time, and even then, is it enemy or friendly? Is it an airstrike or arty strike? If it's a friendly airstrike, which way is it going? There's no max range, its hitscan, and deals tons of damage to a large area.

And besides, playing defensively should be a valid tactic. It's nice to have something for crowd control to break up murderballs, but there are better options.

[KursedVixen]

XkrX Dragoon, on 15 July 2018 - 06:36 AM, said:

We all know coolshots are a massive tool for high alpha builds, and anything that needs allot of heat in general, allowing them to pump out WAY more damage than they should. So, how do we fix it?
Well, A. We remove coolshots, i know, i like them too, but honestly they make allot of my builds effective when they shouldn't be. For example, on my pulse kodiak with 8 medium pulse and 1 large pulse, because of coolshots, i can hit for 61, pinpoint one location, in 1 second, with no overheat risk or ammo consumption, and i can do it again about 2 seconds later. Thats a dead atlas, bang, done. Why? coolshot.

SO! instead, we add in this lil bad boy http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Coolant_Pod
Weighs a ton, takes a slot (which doesnt sound like much, but will matter in those high alpha builds. The weight and slot has to come from something.).
Instead of reducing your heat by 14 points for one second (thats the equivelent of having 93 extra double heat sinks....not okay.) Thiss will double the effectiveness of single heat sinks by double, and double heat sinks by half, for x seconds (to be decided by the balance team). It will also be an equipment, so would either take an extra button, or, take up a weapon group. Meaning your coolant pod is really only as effective as your coolant system is. As an extra disadvantage, it blows up when struck, just like a gauss rifle would. (Id suggest even after use, as it is a powerful tool, but it could be treated like ammo and only explode if unused, again to be decided by the balance team). It would also have a limit to being used one at a time. (they are capable of doing this, gauss has a firing limit).

So for example again in my wubiak, instead of being able to vent 14 points of heat in one second, with no sacrifice to tonnage or slots. With a coolant pod A. i would have to change my build, (sadface) and B. as it stands it would vent 5.85 points of heat over a duration. That is a massive, massive difference to my potential damage output, and a needed one, because destroying an assault mech in two shots is really not alright.



If anything, consumables in their entirety (along with their skill tree section) should just be removed outright. Air and arti strikes a filling a niche of area denial that lrms should be capable of through low cooldowns and massive spreads, hitting multiple enemies clustered together.
They are also devestating against lighter mechs, trying to weave in and out of combat often getting hit by allied arti strikes.

Coolshot reasoning is mentioned above. With it could also come, in all likely hood a removal of ghost heat in its entirety. Without something to bring your heat down quickly, you'll see a hell of allot more people stagger firing their weapons....or ending up dead from being a sitting duck.

UAVS could stay, but instead of being a cost, be a baseline one shot use item equipped on every mech. OR! again, like coolant pods, be an equipment, but requiring ammo.

But aside from all of these factors, consumables are a P2W system. I have a friend who doesn't want to use more than one consumable on his mech because it would cost him 80k a match to play it. Which makes the grind worse, which...if im not mistaken, the skill tree and cbill grind is complained about ALLOT.

how about a default coolant tank that you get and can manually flush like MW4? Refills come per game or via coolant truck option so you only get soo much coolant per game like how ammo is refilled after a game........ add some sort of balance somehow (Can't think right now)

Edited by KursedVixen, 27 July 2018 - 06:01 AM.

[Lescun]

We all know consumables are just a blatant c-bill sink. Remove them from the game entirely, do not replace.

[MechTech Dragoon]

Lescun, on 27 July 2018 - 06:54 AM, said:

We all know consumables are just a blatant c-bill sink. Remove them from the game entirely, do not replace.

If replaced, the point in the replacement would be to have a separate, non-op equipment that is used in similarity to an ams or beagle probe or rocket launcher. Not costing anyone any c-bills outside of the initial equip cost that you see with creating a build for any mech . No more losing your c-bills to be effective in combat.

Take the link to sarna to see what i'm talking about, but this piece of equipment would be a one time use (just like rocket launchers) and vent heat by an amount determined by your already equipped heatsinks. For example, you would vent an extra 0.75 hps for 10 seconds, if you had 10 double heat sinks+a coolant pod, totaling at 7.5 heat vented, over ten seconds, if the balance team decided it would work for 5 seconds, that's 3.75 heat points over 5 seconds. . At the cost of one slot, one ton, and an equipable item that can explode like a gauss rifle, and can only be used once(and one at a time if you have multiple). Much less op than 14 points of heat in one second. Adding in these and removing coolshots, would still give high heat and high energy builds an option to include into their load out to reduce their heat at important times, but with sacrifice and risk on their part, and they'd need to actually wait to vent their heat, instead of it happening all at once and being able to alpha again right away.

[Peiper]

Thanks for picking up the torch. I think I gave up on this in 2014. Here is a slew of new/alternative/better ideas for equipment. And though not listed in the OP, I agree there that coolant flushes should be equipment that takes weight. Anything you add to a mech takes weight. If targetting computers can weigh up to 7 tons, certainly UAV launchers and coolant pods/flushes should also take up space and weight. Either that or, like I say in the beginning, only scout mechs should have access to TAG to call in strikes. Give them more to do. You know, role warfare! Anyway, enjoy XkrX Dragoon. You're on the right track.

https://mwomercs.com...warfare-scouts/

[dervishx5]

MWO's coolant pod is WoT's golden ammo. Not taking them puts the player at a disadvantage. It's a rich warrior's game.

Still, I blame MW3 for introducing this concept to begin with...

Edited by dervishx5, 27 July 2018 - 12:23 PM.

[ShooterMcGavin80]

I just played quickplay group drops for about three hours. Not sure where this huge clan laser alpha strike thing is a problem. I did however get killed quite a few times with dual heavy gauss and LRM/ATM spam. Lasers are almost obsolete.

[MechTech Dragoon]

ShooterMcGavin80, on 27 July 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

I just played quickplay group drops for about three hours. Not sure where this huge clan laser alpha strike thing is a problem. I did however get killed quite a few times with dual heavy gauss and LRM/ATM spam. Lasers are almost obsolete.

I cant comment on heavy gauss being effected by this, because thats its own problem in itself that needs fixing....really just needs its projectile size changed since...ya know, its a quarter ton slug, which really shouldnt be slipping into a cockpit.

However, its not just lasers, all weapons would be effected by this, the most heavily in order would be energy, missile, uacs, reg acs, and gauss, meaning gauss would need its own balance checks, should this be a thing pushed for.