71 replies to this topic

[Daggett]

Anjian, on 22 July 2018 - 08:20 PM, said:

This seems to be the only game where I have seen this happen. I don't know if this has to do because the game is North American, the subtle, unconcious influence of American sports in the game. Many of the wargames I see in the market are Russian, and for them, chess is the thing. They are influenced by chess in the design of the map and in the context how units are going to move across it.

I guess the main underlying "problem" could be that in MWO we have vastly different unit-speeds. Most other shooters have no, only minor or only temporary speed differences so there would be not much gain in nascaring.

Edited by Daggett, 23 July 2018 - 06:43 AM.

[Dragonporn]

Nascar is an issue, it unpreventable one and quite annoying when you're in a slower mech. Generally it is main indicator of bad teamplay. By the principle, Assaults are the main firepower of the team, those mechs are to be escorted and protected if possible. When team runs off ahead, you can't help it, but to fall behind and just await while enemy team crash into you from the opposite side. When both teams nascar, it's a cluster**** fight, decided usually by who gets to enemy Assaults first. Several times it was quite hilarious when enemy team started nascar, while our team was aware and well positioned with protected flanks and Assaults, it usually ended in hard stomp. Their charging force was wrecked in pieces, because their heavy hitter arrived too late, and numbers advantage was already on our side. It's hard to get decent level of coordination in solo queue, since everyone is doing his own thing, so we have to live with it (or rather die with it).

catsonmeth, on 22 July 2018 - 06:34 PM, said:

It's bigger, squishier, more specialized, and slower than a locust. 12cmgs only do 3 more DPS than 6splas (afaik), and that's spread over the whole duration rather than one second of every few. Heat generally isn't that big of an issue, so the only real advantage a PIR has over a LCT-1E is the ability to crit, which, yes, is pretty massive, but not so overpowered as to be broken considering the drawbacks relative to the 1E.

I'd definitely bet against a PIR in most light v light situations.

MGs are hitscan, you just spray over backside of any mech and you have whole backside critted before big guy can move torso either side. With SPLs you can successfully hit only one component, and with ~24 damage there's no guarantee it can crit anything inside. Assaults and most Heavies have enough structure not to lose shot component. And while SPLs recharge, you can already take action preventing second hit. It's incomparable how fast you can eat through open structure with MGs critting (x12 lol) vs. SPL pinpoint damage. And as I said before, damage isn't an actual problem, crits are, but we can't nerf MG family just to balance PIR, we need backbreaking quirks for PIR to discourage boating as many.

On Lights 1v1 note, it's generally a bad idea to fight another Light when you're in one, because if you can't kill it in 2-3 secs, it's a waste of time you could use wrecking big boys, which you are designed for. But in case of PIR, hitscan damage leg of Light mech is very-very easy, and even with pisspoor MG dps, it still eats through armor very quickly, occasionally helping it up with some small lasers equipped. Because main ability to survive for ANY Light out there is not to get hit. That's the general principle. You usually don't go near mechs boating RACs, MGs or Streaks in a Light, because they gonna have easier time hitting you. With PIR being on par in terms of speed with most other Lights, if you get in a range of one, you'll have to either fight or die, no way to run. Only one mech I was able to successfully kill PIRs 1v1 every time - Streak Jenner IIC, but then again, in most cases fight ended with me losing leg still.

[catsonmeth]

Dragonporn, on 23 July 2018 - 07:35 AM, said:

Nascar is an issue, it unpreventable one and quite annoying when you're in a slower mech. Generally it is main indicator of bad teamplay. By the principle, Assaults are the main firepower of the team, those mechs are to be escorted and protected if possible. When team runs off ahead, you can't help it, but to fall behind and just await while enemy team crash into you from the opposite side. When both teams nascar, it's a cluster**** fight, decided usually by who gets to enemy Assaults first. Several times it was quite hilarious when enemy team started nascar, while our team was aware and well positioned with protected flanks and Assaults, it usually ended in hard stomp. Their charging force was wrecked in pieces, because their heavy hitter arrived too late, and numbers advantage was already on our side. It's hard to get decent level of coordination in solo queue, since everyone is doing his own thing, so we have to live with it (or rather die with it).


MGs are hitscan, you just spray over backside of any mech and you have whole backside critted before big guy can move torso either side. With SPLs you can successfully hit only one component, and with ~24 damage there's no guarantee it can crit anything inside. Assaults and most Heavies have enough structure not to lose shot component. And while SPLs recharge, you can already take action preventing second hit. It's incomparable how fast you can eat through open structure with MGs critting (x12 lol) vs. SPL pinpoint damage. And as I said before, damage isn't an actual problem, crits are, but we can't nerf MG family just to balance PIR, we need backbreaking quirks for PIR to discourage boating as many.

On Lights 1v1 note, it's generally a bad idea to fight another Light when you're in one, because if you can't kill it in 2-3 secs, it's a waste of time you could use wrecking big boys, which you are designed for. But in case of PIR, hitscan damage leg of Light mech is very-very easy, and even with pisspoor MG dps, it still eats through armor very quickly, occasionally helping it up with some small lasers equipped. Because main ability to survive for ANY Light out there is not to get hit. That's the general principle. You usually don't go near mechs boating RACs, MGs or Streaks in a Light, because they gonna have easier time hitting you. With PIR being on par in terms of speed with most other Lights, if you get in a range of one, you'll have to either fight or die, no way to run. Only one mech I was able to successfully kill PIRs 1v1 every time - Streak Jenner IIC, but then again, in most cases fight ended with me losing leg still.

I don't usually pilot assaults, but I've been in them enough to have gone against every backstabber. The thing is, I know what any good assault hunter can do, so I immediately call for help and start spreading damage, and I can't say I've been killed unfairly by a MG boat.

The "speed is your armor" mantra isn't really accurate, especially for whaling. Speed and size just multiply armor's effectiveness. It seems silly, but try putting armor nodes on a light, and you'll notice a big difference in your capabilities. RACs and most other DPS are usually easy targets for lights because they're easy to spread and require a lot of rounds on target.

As for PIR hunting, they run from everything but specialized builds like long-range flankers. I can't think of any common light that's easier to kill in a dogfight.

[Anjian]

Daggett, on 23 July 2018 - 06:42 AM, said:

I guess the main underlying "problem" could be that in MWO we have vastly different unit-speeds. Most other shooters have no, only minor or only temporary speed differences so there would be not much gain in nascaring.

NASCAR wasn't born with MWO during its early phase. It came some time during the game's evolution, as a result of balance changes, increases in unit speed, changes in the map design and spawn locations. Differences in unit speed alone should not be causing it, since in other games thare are also tremendous differences in unit speeds.

Edited by Anjian, 23 July 2018 - 07:48 PM.

[KoalaBrownie]

JediPanther, on 21 July 2018 - 07:27 AM, said:

Pgi's poor map design is the cause of NASCAR plain and simple. How many maps have a central feature weather it be geography,a structure or combination of the two? If it isn't the map it is reinforced by domination point. Add to that the fastest mech is roughly 170kph while the slowest assault is a 40kph slug and easy target.

Nascar is the result of player habit, nothing more. Drop 24 new players onto any map and see if they nascar.
Next time you drop turn left not right for a change.

[El Bandito]

Anjian, on 23 July 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

NASCAR wasn't born with MWO during its early phase. It came some time during the game's evolution, as a result of balance changes, increases in unit speed, changes in the map design and spawn locations. Differences in unit speed alone should not be causing it, since in other games thare are also tremendous differences in unit speeds.

KoalaBrownie, on 23 July 2018 - 08:01 PM, said:

Nascar is the result of player habit, nothing more. Drop 24 new players onto any map and see if they nascar.

Nascar was heavily influenced by early mechs of that time, such as the Atlas, and Centurion, where their biggest firepower was on the right side. Therefore it made sense to peek with your right when possible.

[KoalaBrownie]

El Bandito, on 23 July 2018 - 08:08 PM, said:

Nascar was heavily influenced by early mechs of that time, such as the Atlas, and Centurion, where their biggest firepower was on the right side. Therefore it made sense to peek with your right when possible.

Yeah, and the habit has remained.
I used to flank left sometimes on Skirmish, after a few times running into the entire enemy team I learned to only go left on Dom.

[TWIAFU]

KoalaBrownie, on 23 July 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:

Yeah, and the habit has remained.
I used to flank left sometimes on Skirmish, after a few times running into the entire enemy team I learned to only go left on Dom.

NASCAR habit is to go right a vast majority of the time.

It is beyond most pilots to realize this and make the difficult adjustment and go left.

Use habit and pattern to your advantage and exploit it.

[Dragonporn]

catsonmeth, on 23 July 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

I don't usually pilot assaults, but I've been in them enough to have gone against every backstabber. The thing is, I know what any good assault hunter can do, so I immediately call for help and start spreading damage, and I can't say I've been killed unfairly by a MG boat.

The "speed is your armor" mantra isn't really accurate, especially for whaling. Speed and size just multiply armor's effectiveness. It seems silly, but try putting armor nodes on a light, and you'll notice a big difference in your capabilities. RACs and most other DPS are usually easy targets for lights because they're easy to spread and require a lot of rounds on target.

As for PIR hunting, they run from everything but specialized builds like long-range flankers. I can't think of any common light that's easier to kill in a dogfight.

I don't really think word "unfair" is appropriate. Lights have upperhand and designed to leghump/flank slow Assaults and kill them this way, they stand no chance in straight up combat, so take every advantage you can get. I run Lights myself and find it perfectly fair. But the thing is, you don't really see much negativity coming from players about most Light mechs, as you see for PIR, well unless player is rather new and doesn't know how to defend himself from those pesky hunters in general.

But again, it's not about getting killed, I was pointing out crits mostly. Say, you're engaged in fight with your Assault, PIR comes from behind, spray your backside, even when you try to twist, it can follow, so in a few moments most of your stuff is crited out. I jam my backside to the wall, friendlies kill Piranha. Yay, stick for an Assault is saved!... Even if somehow weapons survived, losing heatsinks will make you build up heat super-fast and cooldown forever, so you'll be running at 50% of your efficiency at best, and that was worth couple of seconds staring at your back. I mean MLX can boat MGs pretty well too f.e., but it's all about ttk. x12 MGs v x8 is BIG, plus 145 KPH vs. 113 KPH.

On RAC note, if you have it low slung and you can unlock, DPS'ing leg of a Light isn't too hard, and it chews it up pretty quick. I have CTF with x4 RAC/2s and King Crab with x2 RAC/5s + x4 LMGs, both weapons in arms. You can't really twist or shield leg damage in anything, especially not from this kind of DPS.

Again, on Light 1v1 note, with my Osiris 2V it takes forever to fight PIR, and usually I lose, my stealth scout Raven 3L has absolutely no chance against PIR either, with ACH if I can alpha its leg with first hit, I win, but otherwise I die. With Locust I can dodge and run circles around it forever, but in the end, I don't have enough firepower to beat it. As I mentioned before my Jenner IIC, but again, legged Light is useless, so not sure how much of a win it is. Reason why PIR pilots rarely engage in 1v1, which is true, is because they aware that fighting other Light will always take longer than it should, so better spend this time elsewhere, but their ability in 1v1 is pretty obvious.

[Calebos]

Discussing the balance in this game is pure nonsense antil this piece of crap starts to work properly. Even just dropping down from dropship causes frame drops I have never ever saw so horribly coded game. And developer(Really? Are they worth of this word? I do not think so ...) noobs are jst puking new and new mechs and sh*ttish maps ...

[Grus]

Ralatar, on 21 July 2018 - 03:40 AM, said:

None of the above would matter if we had a performance based MM. It's all in place, we have match score average's for each weight class we have. With monitoring and tweaking as needed it would allow for like skilled players to be matched up based on their performance in the weight class they are dropping in. Been brought up before after the failed ELO using win/loss as a measure. A number of us have been asking since around 2013-14. Would mean that if you perform at a tier 2 lv in lights but a tier 3 in Assaults then you would use the respective ranking when you drop. Would think that 4 tiers would work and keep the time to match players down and still give a much better experience than we currently have.

Most of the losses people have happen in the mechlab.. Way before they even get in a match. MM only really effect the upp 40% of the player base. IMO

Edited by Grus, 25 July 2018 - 12:14 PM.

[OmniFail]

I just wish they would hurry up and buff the laser damage to fix the alpha strike problems so they can go back to nerfing the over performing LRMs