152 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

For a Niche game, 5 years, and still going, is not to shabby really. Besides, even the Community has proven that "they" themselves can't even "Balance" MWO and they are far greater in number than the staff of PGI.

[Mystere]

Almond Brown, on 07 August 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

For a Niche game, 5 years, and still going, is not to shabby really. Besides, even the Community has proven that "they" themselves can't even "Balance" MWO and they are far greater in number than the staff of PGI.

There are two flaws with your statements:

• Did PGI at any time ever hand over balancing to the "community"? If not, then it is absolutely impossible to prove -- or disprove -- something that never even existed.
  
• MWO never reached a "feature complete" state based on what was sold to the Founders. From that perspective alone, it is arguably an even less than "shabby" game.

[Big Tin Man]

Cado,

Perhaps you need to flush out your idea of what a solo queue would exactly look like (or maybe I missed it in your wall of text). Are FP matches kicking off at a regular interval, or as soon as the MM finds 12 players on each side?

The issue with current FP populations that I'm getting at is if there are 12 pug clanners on one side, and 3 pugs on the IS side, and then an organized IS 12 man sync drops, the match would happen for 12 pugs vs. a 9-12 man depending on what SSR chose. Nothing would change. Pugs would cry as they are facing organized competition. SSR would not work, as the population is too low and the games are too long to let the player base reaccumulate and create a better SSR pool to draw from.

If your idea is that FP matches start every 5-10 minutes and a larger pool gathers together to draw from, that could work. Groups would scream about being broken up, and last I checked, the folks in groups are the ones buying mechpacks. Money talks and PGI gets that.

[Daurock]

Big Tin Man, on 07 August 2018 - 09:04 AM, said:

If your idea is that FP matches start every 5-10 minutes and a larger pool gathers together to draw from, that could work.

While I'm not sure a 5-10 minute "window" for people to que between drops (A'la solaris 3 minute timer) would solve anything on the off-hours, I do think the idea has some merit for prime time hours.
Let's assume the MM grabbed as many of the "Largest" groups on each side of the pile every ten minutes, forming teams around them, and then worked in the smaller groups into each successive game. (Forming a total of 3 or so games every 10 minutes) In theory, that'd put the big groups fighting the biggest ones available, and the smaller and middle sized people fighting each other as well. It probably would do as good a job as possible of segregating the "pugs' from the "premades" without resorting to forcing team matching, and/or dramatically lengthening wait times.

Could a Large group sync-drop? (as either individuals, or even as 2 or 3 medium-large sized groups?) Sure, but instead of dropping as one team, they'd have a high chance to be spread out into multiple matches, filling out other groups on their own side that joined in the same window. Now they'd be facing the same opposing groups, but with only half the team a known value. If they drop as a pair of 6s or similar, half may well get to stomp some pugs, but the other half may very well see an opposing 12 man, and get hammered just as badly because they're missing half their own team. Instead, hopefully that large group would probably prefer to keep the main force together as a unit. (And in doing so, facing the largest opposing unit that signed up in that 10 minute window.)

Would that be a palatable Option for newbies? Vets? I don't know, but i do think it has at least a semblance of being a better option than whats out there now.

Edited by Daurock, 07 August 2018 - 10:18 AM.

[TWIAFU]

SFC174, on 05 August 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Well it certainly has increased SoloQ wait times for me. Given the population size, there's going to be a downside with any attempt to shift players into different modes. And the time commitment for FW will mean a significant part of the population will never want much to do with it.

What "time commitment"?

Do one CW drop for two SQ, is that the time commitment you mean?

If not, what commitment are you referring to?

[SFC174]

TWIAFU, on 07 August 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

What "time commitment"?

Do one CW drop for two SQ, is that the time commitment you mean?

If not, what commitment are you referring to?

It's actually more like 3 games in Solo to one in Faction (not including scouting of course). And that's not including queue time either.

While that may not sound like a lot to you, if you look at my history on Jarl's, I average 6-7 games/day. Jarl's says the average MWO player only averages 4 games/day, so you're talking about only having time for 1 faction game on average, or 2 for me.

I simply don't believe (and I submit that player stats would suggest I'm correct) that people are going to want to play one game a day, particularly if they are solo players taking the risk they're going to get stuck into a bad matchup (because no matchmaker - not that the solo mm is anything to be proud of) and get stomped. At least in Solo they can (1) quickly get another match and hope to get a better team (2) play the mech they want, as often as they want.

I think FW has a place in this game and I think improvements are warranted. I just don't see, given PGI's history of utter failure with the mode, and the current population size, how its ever going to be much larger than it is right now without either (1) cratering solo or (2) drastically changing how people are able to participate in it.

[Kanil]

SFC174, on 07 August 2018 - 11:47 AM, said:

While that may not sound like a lot to you, if you look at my history on Jarl's, I average 6-7 games/day. Jarl's says the average MWO player only averages 4 games/day, so you're talking about only having time for 1 faction game on average, or 2 for me.

I would imagine most people don't play every day, though. Playing 8 games every other day is still averaging 4 games a day, but means a session where you only play FP would still feature more than one match.

Obviously queue times exist and factor into decision making, but looking beyond those, I can't help but think most people don't play this game thinking "well, I've got exactly 6 minutes, I guess I'll play a QP match."

[SFC174]

Kanil, on 07 August 2018 - 12:12 PM, said:

I would imagine most people don't play every day, though. Playing 8 games every other day is still averaging 4 games a day, but means a session where you only play FP would still feature more than one match.

Obviously queue times exist and factor into decision making, but looking beyond those, I can't help but think most people don't play this game thinking "well, I've got exactly 6 minutes, I guess I'll play a QP match."

True, but my point about getting stuck into a stomp whose end is clear in the first 5 minutes if you're a solo player against a pre-made stands. And even if I'm getting 2 games per gaming session, well, "feels bad man".

As long as you need to field a group of moderate size in FW to have a decent shot at wins (for the average player), it'll be a problem. FW should not be SoloQP, but if you want to grow participation, someone's gonna have to come up with a 3rd way.

[Quxudica]

Mystere, on 07 August 2018 - 08:26 AM, said:

There are two flaws with your statements:

• Did PGI at any time ever hand over balancing to the "community"? If not, then it is absolutely impossible to prove -- or disprove -- something that never even existed.
  
• MWO never reached a "feature complete" state based on what was sold to the Founders. From that perspective alone, it is arguably an even less than "shabby" game.

Remember when Community Warfare was supposed to be the actual game? Complete with real Role Warfare, mechs were going to have real functionality on the battlefield beyond being glorified walking turrets and battles would have actual stakes? Remember when Quick Play game modes were being referred to as place holders?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Quote

True, but my point about getting stuck into a stomp whose end is clear in the first 5 minutes if you're a solo player against a pre-made stands. And even if I'm getting 2 games per gaming session, well, "feels bad man".

As long as you need to field a group of moderate size in FW to have a decent shot at wins (for the average player), it'll be a problem. FW should not be SoloQP, but if you want to grow participation, someone's gonna have to come up with a 3rd way.

To be honest this FW event really just feels like they are bribing people with MC and cosmetics to be stomp fodder for established clans. I've been on the winning side of most of my FW drops and even still none have been fun, it rapidly becomes clear when one side is snowballing and the other side has nothing to do but sit and get farmed. I'm playing the mode purely for the MC and will gladly not touch it again once thats done with.

Edited by Quxudica, 07 August 2018 - 12:35 PM.

[SFC174]

Quxudica, on 07 August 2018 - 12:31 PM, said:

To be honest this FW event really just feels like they are bribing people with MC and cosmetics to be stomp fodder for established clans. I've been on the winning side of most of my FW drops and even still none have been fun, it rapidly becomes clear when one side is snowballing and the other side has nothing to do but sit and get farmed. I'm playing the mode purely for the MC and will gladly not touch it again once thats done with.

I'd rather give PGI $10 for some MC than play FW under the current conditions...….wait a second, now its all becoming clear to me...…...

[Rustyhammer]

Rustyhammer, on 06 August 2018 - 10:23 PM, said:

You have split queues for solo and groups for QP. I noticed that during Oceanic time it's often easier to get a game in FP rather than GQ.

I'd actually love to drop in Group queue as a solo player. These days, level of derpness in solo QP is all time high.

Cadoazreal, on 06 August 2018 - 11:05 PM, said:

Streamers often run group drops from twitch ask one for an invite

It's not about getting into a group, it's about being in the group and not getting a single match. Some days GQ is totally dead during Oceanic time and groups HAVE TO sync drops to get matches.
Let solo players optionally queue for both QP and GQ at the same time, allow no more than 2-3 pugs on each team and GQ will be much more populated than now.

What makes you think splitting FP queue into solo/group will help with population when you have a running example of opposite in the much more popular quick play? Splitting will kill the new Group FP outside of Friday nights NA time and pugs won't be queuing in the new Solo FP as they still going to be stomped heavily due to much easier sync dropping outside of NA peak time.

[Khobai]

Its pretty simple.

You have a release valve. When player population drops below a certain amount the release valve opens and allows mixed queues.

But when player population is above a certain amount the queues are split.

If theres enough players online for the queues to be split then theres no reason the queues shouldnt be split.

Again its not a problem that cant be solved. And you cant ruin FP anymore than its already been ruined. So theres nothing to lose by trying it.

Edited by Khobai, 07 August 2018 - 06:46 PM.

[Rustyhammer]

To some extent it's similar to what is happening right now.
If you have 11 solo pugs in the queue and a 12 man group goes in the same queue, the 12 man group gets the lobby.
If it's less than 12 man group, the rest is filled with solo pugs and other smaller groups on first come first served basis.
Right now you can get 12 solo pugs on your team only if there are no groups queued.
With the current payer numbers, your release valve will be always open except maybe Friday night NA time.

You can ask PGI to give groups priority and delay forming a pure solo pug group to the last 2 mins of waiting lobby (when call of arms is triggered). When you get 12 queued solo pugs on both sides let them also form a lobby. This may actually make sense.

You can also ask PGI for select option of not being queued against any group. When you get 12 similar minded players queued on both sides who have this option selected, you get a lobby. This will also make sense.

Keep in mind, there are solo players who prefer dropping with and against groups. I.e it's one of the ways to learn some strategies from organised groups and maybe gets recruited. Please do not advocate for you own solo player preferences being imposed on solo players who don't want to join a group (for one reason or another) but actually prefer group aspect of the game.

P.S. You should also realise that split queues will penalise any group less than 12 and even penalise 12 man groups to some extent (who like dry drops?). Groups being penalised for playing game mode designed for organised gameplay is the last thing you want to do.

[Radbacker]

Well I was having fun with this event for the first 3 days, seemed to match PUG vs PUG but last night it was all 10-12 man pre-mades so I turned it of in disgust after my 3rd stomping. It really was like the big pre-mades
were only playing in one side and the other had none to be matched with, do these large teams really enjoy stomping the enemy 10-48??? I can see why they call it seal clubbing now and frankly it is just no fun being the seal, at game number 3 I was very tempted to just eject but I didn't want to be a ****.
Surely after stomping one or two PUG drops you'd change factions and try to get a challenge especially as there ar no penalties for changing factions now but I guess was its true clubbers gotsta club

[Savage Wolf]

Considering how low the population was, 6 times that is still really low and if it requires giving away MC to make people want to play FP, they are still doing something terribly wrong.

Edited by Savage Wolf, 08 August 2018 - 05:03 AM.

[Kanil]

SFC174, on 07 August 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

True, but my point about getting stuck into a stomp whose end is clear in the first 5 minutes if you're a solo player against a pre-made stands. And even if I'm getting 2 games per gaming session, well, "feels bad man".

As long as you need to field a group of moderate size in FW to have a decent shot at wins (for the average player), it'll be a problem. FW should not be SoloQP, but if you want to grow participation, someone's gonna have to come up with a 3rd way.

You make it sound like it's a "getting stomped" problem and not a "time commitment" problem.

[TWIAFU]

Kanil, on 08 August 2018 - 01:33 AM, said:

You make it sound like it's a "getting stomped" problem and not a "time commitment" problem.

And solo not using any one of the numerous tools they asked for and now have to be put on 'even footing' with groups/unit in the group/unit queue.

Look at SQ for all the evidence of how a solo only option in CW would go. SQ stomps are 12-2 in CW they would be 48-12. But that rolfstomp is ok so long as they dont have to teamwork or face teamwork.

[Asym]

GBxGhostRyder, on 07 August 2018 - 06:34 AM, said:

To be honest I don't think players hate players they are angry at PGI I think most of the anger comes from what PGI has done over 5 year as in devalue players mechs by so many nerfs that were uncalled for and So much unbalance in the game modes themselves as in Premades VS solo players first in QP then in FP for so long

This game has so much to offer that many games do not but PGI has squandered there community almost alienating there community from MWO in a attempt to kill there own product? You have to ask why? Is it because the Captain at the Helm has been drunk and smoking the whacky weed to long?

Or is it just they don't give a crap about there playerbase and what they have to say as far as what they would like to play in this game or any types of improvements? Are they truly listening now or is this just another have baked attempt to get the last USD from players before its closed down?

I really wanted to play CW again like it was back just after closed beta when the community trusted Russ and PGI and things were going well for both groups of this playerbase solo players and large groups. Also I wanted to really play Solaris but that is a total unbalanced game mode I learned to hate very quickly which could be fixed by making 4 divisions based on chassis type but PGI is so resistant to player input about MWO they will actually do just the opposite of what the playerbase wants just to piss them off.

So in reality I will set back and just wait for the proof I can trust what PGI has to say about FP or anything like they say proof is in the pudding.

PGI bit off more than it could chew well before the game went live. Whomever was that proposal manager really sisn't have a clue..... Once purchased, the scope of the magnitude of that error became know and PGI went into crisis mode in the first year. Wrong engine, wrong concepts and they completely goofed in the "level of precision the market expected".....

They were thinking "Rock-and-Sock'em-Robots" and MW3 and the market expected modern graphics, competent renderings of their favorite mechs look but especially those mechs attributes..... PGI failed on day one.... It's not a miracle they are still in business because this is an "extreme, small niche market....."

The value proposition is: give them something cause without us, there is nothing....... And, it has worked for > 4 years..... I can say that that is an extremely patient market.........

PGI et al. was "just surviving" and many were sticking on, no matter what, because "something is better than nothing...."

OK....? I'll stick around and watch and hope that one day soon, PGI gets serious or sells the IP..... GLHF.

[Tenacious B]

Ah.. that's why my qp queue times were unusually long.

[Almond Brown]

Mystere, on 07 August 2018 - 08:26 AM, said:

There are two flaws with your statements:

• Did PGI at any time ever hand over balancing to the "community"? If not, then it is absolutely impossible to prove -- or disprove -- something that never even existed.
  
• MWO never reached a "feature complete" state based on what was sold to the Founders. From that perspective alone, it is arguably an even less than "shabby" game.

Interesting. So you would assert that had PGI turned the "Issue of Balance" over to the Community, it would be better today than it is currently preceived? Pretty hard "to prove -- or disprove" as well.

It seems one would have to "dig up" the Post or statement that PGI ever said MWO had reached that so called ""feature complete" state. Always just assumed it was still trying to get there, as are so many others of these types of Online only games... but I may have missed that "memo".

Edited by Almond Brown, 08 August 2018 - 07:30 AM.