59 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Mystere, on 08 August 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

Did you just cast a vote for more accurate and effective indirect fire?

No I didn't. I clarified that Artillery in the real world works fine compared to LRMs in MWO. Being spammed isn't an issue.

This is because in the real world, it's about one-upping the enemy, every time -- best example is Cold War. In MWO, there must be a semblance of balance so one certain playstyle doesn't overperform and outshine another.

LRMs being powerful while primarily indirect-fire would make it imbalanced, this is precisely why they are weak right now. Make them primarily direct-fire, now we have a much larger leeway to buff the weapon to relevance and outside of mediocrity. If only KoalaBrownie and Vellron2005 get that.

Mystere, on 08 August 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

In a related note, I absolutely loved the CW Long Tom. Did you?

Honestly, no.

[Mystere]

Prototelis, on 08 August 2018 - 06:13 PM, said:

Its okay to boat lrms, it is not okay to sandbag your teammates.

There is almost no difference in DPS between IDF and DF, thats the problem. The weapon system incentivizes hiding and using other people as your armor to throw up big numbers.

Honestly I think they should nuke the spread on IDF to the point where a good bit of the missiles will miss, more of an AOE effect than guaranteed DPS.

I am still not conviced it is a weapon problem as opposed to it being a people (i.e. teamwork) problem.

InspectorG, on 08 August 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

Four of the above encourages the use of the W key.

One does not.

But then again, i say buff the tutorial...

What about those wo do not use any keys at all?

Edited by Mystere, 08 August 2018 - 06:31 PM.

[Prototelis]

Mystere, on 08 August 2018 - 06:29 PM, said:

I am still not conviced it is a weapon problem as opposed to it being a people (i.e. teamwork) problem.

Oh thats definitely part of the problem, but you almost can't blame peeps for sandbagging when the game encourages it.

[Appogee]

I'm really tired of FP matches where I have no choice but to take cover from 4 waves of LRM spammers. I try to get shots off before the TAGs can sweep me or the ECM Arctic Cheetah lands a buffed NARC on me from hundreds of meters away, requiring me to hide and wait for 2 minutes from the relentless rain of missiles from enemies that haven't even seen me.

I take Stealth Armour and double AMS, but these alleged 'counters' are no help on maps like Caustic. You can't push and kill the LRM boats because the LRMtarding Supernovas don't even need to move out of their spawn to rack up ridiculous levels of damage and win the match... with no skill required.

This is not Mechwarrior. I have to force myself to play out these matches and not simply disconnect in disgust. Might as well be sitting in our bases on opposite sides of the planet launching BVR cruise missiles at each other.

Edited by Appogee, 08 August 2018 - 06:49 PM.

[Dee Eight]

I'd say the IS answer to ATMs is the MML, but pgi cannot code an ammo switch so... all we'd get is sliding damages and probably a stupid min range.

[Monkey Lover]

Jman5, on 08 August 2018 - 12:46 PM, said:

Personally, I'm just excited that I will no longer have to deal with instant-locks from streak SRMs + free Artemis.

It be better if they just fixed it. Make streaks 1 ton more if artemis was equipped.

[YueFei]

The right way to deal with LRMs is to increase the influence of input from the shooter, and mimic the mechanics of missiles in real life, but that would require a complete re-work of the basic mechanics.

Imagine a skilled LRM shooter who pulls trickshots with them and curves them around cover to hit you, all on his own, without relying on his teammate's lock. Even if I was the one getting hit by that, I wouldn't be mad, I'd be impressed.

You can limit the shenanigans by imposing a LATAX budget so that the missiles can't pull multiple orthogonal turns one after the other... it'd run out of delta-V long before it could reach its target if you tried.

In other FPS's, people get stoked when they're watching good players make amazing throws with grenades/flash/smoke/etc. Why can't it be the same in MWO with LRMs?

[Vellron2005]

Appogee, on 08 August 2018 - 06:42 PM, said:

I'm really tired of FP matches where I have no choice but to take cover from 4 waves of LRM spammers. I try to get shots off before the TAGs can sweep me or the ECM Arctic Cheetah lands a buffed NARC on me from hundreds of meters away, requiring me to hide and wait for 2 minutes from the relentless rain of missiles from enemies that haven't even seen me.

I take Stealth Armour and double AMS, but these alleged 'counters' are no help on maps like Caustic. You can't push and kill the LRM boats because the LRMtarding Supernovas don't even need to move out of their spawn to rack up ridiculous levels of damage and win the match... with no skill required.

This is not Mechwarrior. I have to force myself to play out these matches and not simply disconnect in disgust. Might as well be sitting in our bases on opposite sides of the planet launching BVR cruise missiles at each other.

Ah dear Apogee, now you know how regular people feel when they see 12 linebackers or Assassins or a nice 12-man wave of Annihilators moving against them..

It's not just Lurms that can get ridiculous..

Also, just so you know, there's a lot of skill required, and a good degree of luck, to Lurming.. It's not all fire button mashing as most people think..

I wonder what pisses people off more.. when they get focused down by a rain of LRMs from people they can't see, or when they see a zerg rush of OP SRM brawlers ripping them to shreds, knowing they can't do absolutely nothing to stop them, even though they are in their face..

YueFei, on 08 August 2018 - 10:21 PM, said:

Imagine a skilled LRM shooter who pulls trickshots with them and curves them around cover to hit you, all on his own, without relying on his teammate's lock. Even if I was the one getting hit by that, I wouldn't be mad, I'd be impressed.

Yes! bring back LRM bending!

Edited by Vellron2005, 08 August 2018 - 11:02 PM.

[Cato Zilks]

InspectorG, on 08 August 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

But then again, i say buff the tutorial...

Lol, no can do. There are literally only two people confirmed to have been moved off MWO development and onto MW5. One of those two was the tutorial guy. Sorry dude, tutorial aint changing anytime soon.

[Kroete]

The6thMessenger, on 08 August 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

LRMs being powerful while primarily indirect-fire would make it imbalanced, this is precisely why they are weak right now. Make them primarily direct-fire, now we have a much larger leeway to buff the weapon to relevance and outside of mediocrity. If only KoalaBrownie and Vellron2005 get that.

Some years ago i suggest to give lrms big spread, big like you will hit maybe more then one mech if used indirect,
but buff tag, artemis and narc, and if you go direct with tag and artemis (or have a narcer) you will get nearly pinpoint (torso) damage. It also includes changes ecm to give only locktime increase and spread increase and no "stealth). And a 10% speedbuff for lrms.

But pgi decided to make lrms skillless massspamming at high range.

[Appogee]

Vellron2005, on 08 August 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

I wonder what pisses people off more.. when they get focused down by a rain of LRMs from people they can't see, or when they see a zerg rush of OP SRM brawlers ripping them to shreds, knowing they can't do absolutely nothing to stop them, even though they are in their face..

You make a fair point.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Anything that counters my playstyle is OP.

[Asym]

Appogee, on 08 August 2018 - 06:42 PM, said:

I'm really tired of FP matches where I have no choice but to take cover from 4 waves of LRM spammers. I try to get shots off before the TAGs can sweep me or the ECM Arctic Cheetah lands a buffed NARC on me from hundreds of meters away, requiring me to hide and wait for 2 minutes from the relentless rain of missiles from enemies that haven't even seen me.

I take Stealth Armour and double AMS, but these alleged 'counters' are no help on maps like Caustic. You can't push and kill the LRM boats because the LRMtarding Supernovas don't even need to move out of their spawn to rack up ridiculous levels of damage and win the match... with no skill required.

This is not Mechwarrior. I have to force myself to play out these matches and not simply disconnect in disgust. Might as well be sitting in our bases on opposite sides of the planet launching BVR cruise missiles at each other.

Hey App, Get GuD..... Adapt, overcome and survive.... Isn't that what the ePeen crowd has been telling seals and noobs they've been gleefully slaughtering and intentionally farming for years? My, my, my, how things change.....

How does it feel? Makes you want to quit when someone uses meta or OP stuff to exploit an "open ended" game environment....

Look at WoWs and they have the exact same problem in their game. In fact, the literally do in fact, sit in opposite camps and shoot at each other because a new meta consumable has completely destroyed the "value proposition" of the game and the "disruptive technology" has fractured the game culture's expectations...................players in the middle are leaving and have stopped playing with the roles that that game's universe is based on..................Sound familiar???

As I have said many times before: "You reap what you sow...." And all of the negativity since the Skill Tree Change has come back three fold and this game lost everyone in the middle......it's "us" and "them" and there never can be balance this way...

You are a good player in a game that is and has lost its will to survive......

Edited by Asym, 09 August 2018 - 04:48 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Vellron2005, on 08 August 2018 - 12:45 AM, said:

IDF missile tracking is atrocious right now.. even with full sensor tree.. Locks are lost literally less than a second after they are attained, and you just fire your full alpha. No sooner than the missiles clearing the tubes, no lock. :-( Not to mention lock-on arcs.. NO way to torso twist without loosing lock, no LRM bending.. Further nerfs would be terrible.

Well, you can also invest into the Sensor Tree to counter locks

[Captain Caveman DE]

Appogee, on 08 August 2018 - 06:42 PM, said:

I'm really tired of FP matches where I have no choice but to take cover from 4 waves of LRM spammers. I try to get shots off before the TAGs can sweep me or the ECM Arctic Cheetah lands a buffed NARC on me from hundreds of meters away, requiring me to hide and wait for 2 minutes from the relentless rain of missiles from enemies that haven't even seen me.

I take Stealth Armour and double AMS, but these alleged 'counters' are no help on maps like Caustic. You can't push and kill the LRM boats because the LRMtarding Supernovas don't even need to move out of their spawn to rack up ridiculous levels of damage and win the match... with no skill required.

This is not Mechwarrior. I have to force myself to play out these matches and not simply disconnect in disgust. Might as well be sitting in our bases on opposite sides of the planet launching BVR cruise missiles at each other.

^
this. the lurmfests are just the most boring thing out there.

and no @the comment with assassin-rushes etc. first, they require a bit more effort to do and the use of w-keys, whereas lurming requires reading a newspaper,holding a mousebutton (sorry) and not falling asleep. and the other side -can- at least shoot back, where-as the lurm-victims generally won't (read: can't, cause scared).

I agree it's no fun being on the recieving end of an assassin-rush either, though.
it's just that it's the way lesser evil, and isn't half as trollish (though still is).

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 09 August 2018 - 06:45 AM.

[Kroete]

Captain Caveman DE, on 09 August 2018 - 06:45 AM, said:

agree it's no fun being on the recieving end of an assassin-rush either, though.
it's just that it's the way lesser evil, and isn't half as trollish (though still is).

You dont have lrms mechs only, you need a spotter or two, but you only need 12 assassins.
The numbers clearly say that the assassin rush is more trollish.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Kroete, on 09 August 2018 - 07:13 AM, said:

You dont have lrms mechs only, you need a spotter or two, but you only need 12 assassins.
The numbers clearly say that the assassin rush is more trollish.

seen and done both more than enough times;
on team lurm, at least 2 people are playing, yeah @narcers.
the rest is trying to stay awake, REAL HARD.
YMMV, ofc.

[Chados]

The thing they want to nerf is streakboating. They can’t do it without nerfing LRMs because the lock mechanic is the same. And Artemis’ lock and tracking bonuses work for both so the only way to close the streak loophole and nerf streaks is nerf LRMs too. Chris wants to make it impossible for a StreakCrow to hold a lock on a Pirate’s Bane or ECM Piranha, so he’s buffing ECM to restore it to its invincible deity-blanket status from pre-2016, reducing the lock cone even more (which will have the added effect of making absolutely sure we can’t even think about the old school LRM tricks like bending around obstacles), not considering the effect of combined ECM and radar deprivation, rendering Artemis a waste of tonnage, rendering AMS irrelevant, and making any LRM play other than parasitic indirect fire from max range impossible, and not testing it on the PTS first because he is convinced that he is RIGHT and those of us with thousands of drops in LRM mechs know squat.

In other words, it’s the old Paulconomy again, PGI balance-by-sledgehammer, just with a different name at the helm but the same old effect on the game. Poorly thought out and untested über-giganerfs instead of carefully thought out solutions. Only now we have lip-service to the player complaints about not wanting to render whole weapon systems utterly useless but for their most annoying and antisocial uses. Buckle up, buttercup. After they ruin missile play they're coming for machine guns next. They’ll fix the PIR-1 the same way they did the Kodiak-3. They will nerf machine guns across the board without any regard for those light platforms with one or two or four ballistic hardpoints. You watch and see if they don’t.

(edit) What really makes me salty about this is how cavalier Chris is about all this. We are repeating history here. We went through all this in 2016 when ECM got nerfed. They did it because the invincible deity-blanket combined with radar deprivation was killing all missile play and that was before the skill tree and therefore WITH Artemis buffs that included greater spread tightening, better lock tracking, and faster spin up than we have now, not to mention a lock cone that was twice the size we will have after the patch, and before we had mechs that could boat three and four AMS. Those who forget history relive stupid mistakes. As always, I will simply park all my LRM mechs-since the Flea hit I’ve been in lights anyway-and I’ll reconfigure my one KFX as a base SRM platform. I’ll find other ways to have fun, and you’ll see a resurgence of some other meta. Because the Paulconomy is all about chasing the meta and that is what Chris is doing now-same game, different name. Compare what he’s doing here to the approach they’re taking with lasers. They’re being a lot more careful with that because far more people are dependent on Clan laser vomit than they are on homing missiles. No one likes parasitic missile people and lights don’t like streak boats so the salt is proportionally less than what they got through the two PTS sessions, which also demonstrated that their ideas to stop the 94 point alpha only made things worse elsewhere. That’s the real reason they are pushing the missile/ECM changes to live without testing-they don’t want to be shown that it is major overkill to do all this at once.

Edited by Chados, 11 August 2018 - 04:47 AM.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

A lot of players want to make this into a very simple point-and-click game that only uses direct fire, because "aiming" is the only skill. Seems like Chris and Paul agree with them.

[Khobai]

Chados, on 11 August 2018 - 04:22 AM, said:

The thing they want to nerf is streakboating.

there is no reason streakboating needed to be flat-out nerfed.

1) streakboats sacrifice being good against non-lights in order to be better against lights.

2) most lights can easily outrun streakboats anyway, if theyre too stupid to run away they deserve what they get.

3) inadvertently nerfing other lockon weapons just to nerf streaks is wrong


now do I think streaks should be adjusted to be less effective vs lights and more effective vs heavies/assaults? probably. they do counter lights a little too hard IMO. But just flat out nerfing streaks is dumb.

Edited by Khobai, 11 August 2018 - 06:54 AM.