79 replies to this topic

[guardian wolf]

Alexander Joe Eisenkreuz Steiner, on 11 September 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Sry, but ME Ships do around 15ly/day, Reapers even 30ly/day. And BT Ships can only Jump to Jumppoints, are incredibly slow if they don't jump, and their communication, electronic and information systems are a joke, which lead to poor long range reconaissance. So in fact they have a rather poor logistics and striking capability.
Also spread forces thin? Are you aware how much more Naval Vessels Halo an ME Fleets have compared to BT? Which btw means, they have actual Tactics and Strategies for fleet combat in space.
And ground forces: Most of the BT Groundforces would be destroyed before even landing. Then they can still be shot from the ground. In ME every Trooper is not only armored but also shielded, and with a CAIN it can take out every Mech. And a Cain is small stuff. And Halo grond forces are also nothing to scoff at. And that's only a few points.

Sry, but ME Ships do around 15ly/day, Reapers even 30ly/day. And BT Ships can only Jump to Jumppoints, are incredibly slow if they don't jump, and their communication, electronic and information systems are a joke, which lead to poor long range reconnaissance. So in fact they have a rather poor logistics and striking capability.
Also spread forces thin? Are you aware how much more naval vessels HALO an ME fleets have compared to BT? Which btw means, they have actual tactics and strategies for fleet combat in space.
And ground forces: Most of the BT ground forces would be destroyed before even landing. Then they can still be shot from space. In ME every Trooper is not only armored but also shielded, and with a M-920 Cain it can take out every Mech. And a Cain is small stuff. And Halo grond forces are also nothing to scoff at. And that's only a few points.
In short I can see a discussion between ME and Halo, but BT is no contender. Because ME and Halo are much more advanced. Like compering two modern day armed forces to one from the 18th century.
Also BT is centered around mechs, which don't make sense it their role as ultimate weapons of war in the first place. Don't get me wrong, they are cool, I like them that's why I'm here. But I never took BT for a serious sci-fi setting because than it falls apart.
In short I can see a discussion between ME and Halo, but BT here is only fanservice. Because ME and Halo are much more advanced. Like compering two modern day armed forces to one from the 18th century.
Also BT is centered around mechs, which don't make sense it their role as ultimate weapons of war in the first place. Don't get me wrong, they are cool, I like them that's why I'm here. But I never took BT for a serious sci-fi setting because than it falls apart.

Is there an echo in here? And as for the CAIN, it is still experimental as far as I know, so it would be only deployed in limited numbers. Also only one shot.

[Alexander Joe Eisenkreuz Steiner]

guardian wolf, on 14 September 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

Is there an echo in here? And as for the CAIN, it is still experimental as far as I know, so it would be only deployed in limited numbers. Also only one shot.

Oh, lol. No idea how that happened. Thx for the hint. Should be fixed now. (Serves me right for posting late at night, and then being so tired that I don't bothered to check the actual post.)

And the Cain can be reloaded, but it takes up 5 heavy weapon power Cells (each Cells reloads 20%). With all ammo cap. upgrades you can fire it twice per mission in ME2. Still ammo is a problem with it.

Edited by Alexander Joe Eisenkreuz Steiner, 14 September 2012 - 11:23 AM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Toughie, battletech has moved away from its space magic early on while mass effect embraced it heavily. Mechs are kind of big as a whole to deal with the sort of weaponry seen in mass effect though I would love to see someone pelting a mech with biotic attacks. Now protomechs, they would do alot of hurt and make mass effects atlas cry at night.

Halo ....everyone would just be bunny hopping around so no one would take them seriously.


stupid bunny hop.

[Zakatak]

guardian wolf, on 14 September 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

Is there an echo in here? And as for the CAIN, it is still experimental as far as I know, so it would be only deployed in limited numbers. Also only one shot.

CAIN is nothing special.

25 gram shell moving at 5km/second isn't that exciting really. 312.5 kilojoules, or about the same as your typical 30mm cannon. "Nuke launcher" is a gross over exaggeration, unless you want to call the thing on the front of an A-10 Warthog a nuke launcher.

The UNSC's anti-materiel rifle is the M99 Stanchion (only in the books), which fires a .21 caliber slug at 15km/second. That's about 1125 kilojoules, or 3.6 times the power, and it isn't experimental like the CAIN. Granted, it can only be fired when prone due to the recoil, while ME has mass magic do-everything fields powered by element magic.

Edited by Zakatak, 14 September 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[Catamount]

The CAIN is an interesting weapon, but not terribly practical (on harder difficulties, they don't even take out Atlases, iirc). It should be noted that it'll probably get considerably smaller as time goes on, though.

Also, if the M99 really had anywhere near that power, going prone wouldn't make a bit of difference. The recoil would probably send the gun backwards with so much force, it would instantly slice backwards through the user, turning them into a fine bloody mist. You're talking about a gun that would be equivalent to firing a hundred of these at the same time



So either that figure wasn't thought out much, or Halo also has some exotic technology not being accounted for here (which is absolutely possible).


Mass Effect would still seem to have the edge in ground combat, of course, for reasons outlined above, but their biggest edge would be in space. Their weapons have similar yields to Halo weapons, but vastly greater ranges (again, also already discussed at length), and those are just pre-war technologies. By the time the war with the Reapers was underway, the technology that was already more than a match for Halo ship-based tech was being replaced by Reaper tech that could plaster that former technology in a fight, and innovations from the war. That's where Thanix cannons came from, as well as new shields capable of withstanding them. Imagine when those technologies start filtering down to ground combat

(considering how easily Thanix-cannon technology sliced through Alliance cruisers at the Battle of the Citadel in single hits, and the absurd jump in power the Normandy sees from installing one and having its firepower go up by at least an order of magnitude, I'd say the Reaper war forwarded ME technology by about a century in just a couple of years)

Edited by Catamount, 14 September 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[Zakatak]

Catamount, on 14 September 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

The CAIN is an interesting weapon, but not terribly practical (on harder difficulties, they don't even take out Atlases, iirc). It should be noted that it'll probably get considerably smaller as time goes on, though.

Also, if the M99 really had anywhere near that power, going prone wouldn't make a bit of difference. The recoil would probably send the gun backwards with so much force, it would instantly slice backwards through the user, turning them into a fine bloody mist. You're talking about a gun that would be equivalent to firing a hundred of these at the same time

If the gun was to weigh about 15kg (sounds about right) and had no recoil management system, it would send the thing flying back at about 10m/s. Cutting the shooter in half is a bit of an exaggeration, but obviously recoil is still going to be a huge problem. Luckily, the bigger the gun you have, the more space you can dedicate to absorbing shock. The M107 is a fairly low recoil weapon, despite firing ginormous ammo.

The UNSC has an obvious large technology advantage over us, so they may be able to make the thing work without killing the shooter (MA37 is a carbine with tiny recoil, and they put Lapua's in that thing, right?). Recoil energy can be spread in other directions, like the Kriss Super-V design which angles the recoil downward to make a .45ACP feel more like a .22LR rimfire. With a strong enough frame, you could have the gun take most of the shock. I think it was mentioned the bipod were designed to sink into the ground too, which helps as well.

Hurray for fanwank. Halo is the only reason I haven't thrown out my Xbox.

And I'm not convinced that 65kt is the yield of a MAC Cannon at full charge. Covy ships can have their shields taken down by a 30 megaton HORNET Mine without being fully destroyed. I understand 30 megatons means alot less in the vacuum of space, but 65kt gun compared to a 30mt nuke is still like shooting a pistol at a tiger tank. Although it probably isn't any of that teraton crap.

Edited by Zakatak, 14 September 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[Alexander Joe Eisenkreuz Steiner]

Zakatak, on 14 September 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

CAIN is nothing special.

25 gram shell moving at 5km/second isn't that exciting really. 312.5 kilojoules, or about the same as your typical 30mm cannon. "Nuke launcher" is a gross over exaggeration, unless you want to call the thing on the front of an A-10 Warthog a nuke launcher.

Yeah, but it's a special explosive projectile. According to ME Wiki: "The real world equivalent is the Railgun, which has clocked speeds at over 2.4 kilometers per second, with a projectile weighing in at 3.2 kg / 7.0547 pounds."

That put's the Cain at at least 9,216 MJ. Here's the link: http://masseffect.wi...wiki/M-920_Cain

Catamount, on 14 September 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

The CAIN is an interesting weapon, but not terribly practical (on harder difficulties, they don't even take out Atlases, iirc). It should be noted that it'll probably get considerably smaller as time goes on, though.

I don't think you get to use it against Atlases. Because IIRC Atlas is exclusive ME3, and in ME3 you only get a Cain at a certain point of Priority Earth, and there's no Atlas around. I think you refer to the YMIR Mechs on Insanity in ME2.

[Catamount]

Alexander Joe Eisenkreuz Steiner, on 14 September 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

I don't think you get to use it against Atlases. Because IIRC Atlas is exclusive ME3, and in ME3 you only get a Cain at a certain point of Priority Earth, and there's no Atlas around. I think you refer to the YMIR Mechs on Insanity in ME2.

Oh god; you're right. I'm not sure how I missed that, given how many times I've run through the franchise D:

[Fusea]

Zakatak, on 24 December 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:

Flood > Reapers

The Flood ended a civilization of people so advanced that they could create structures light-seconds across (300,000km+) and build planets. The Forerunners were more advanced then the Imperium/Federation/Asegard could ever hope to be. The parasite could control anything biological, digital, or mechanical, and it only took a few years to bring the Forerunners to their knees.

That isn't what this is about. The bane of Mass Effect ships is energy weapons, and the Normandy SR1 was destroyed in a few hits by a beam similar to a NL/55 or a Heavy NPPC. If the BTech ship in question can get within laser range, it may have a chance. The Pillar of Autumn is ideally suited to take on the SLDF Cruiser, but not the Alliance cruiser.

I see a game of rock-paper-scissors. Mass Effect beats Halo, Halo beats Btech, Btech beats Mass Effect.

Me thinks you doth sell the Reapers short. They also created massive structures and did so in profusion. They also created an artificial zone of habibility in the galactic core which has enough radiation to make the core of Sol seem pleasant by comparison. And while the Flood brought a powerful galactic civilization to extinction, the Reapers did the same thing numerous times over the course of millions or tens of millions of years. Additionally, the Reapers were brilliant with Nano technology against biological life and hacking against artificial life.

Also in favor of the Reapers is the mobility of forces and logistics. The Reapers were quite capable of making the jouries from planet and system to system entirely unaided. The flood relied on vessels captured from their victims. The Reapers require no supply. The Flood required sentient creatures to grow and thrive. Esentially, all the Reapers would need to do is cripple any ship they found, then carefully sterilize the planet... which is their typical MO. As millions years old sentient machines they would certainly have time on their side.

What really swings it in the direction of the Reapers for me is the history of Halo itself. The Forerunners were able to keep the Flood at bay with a super AI and a fleet of unmanned ships. In fact, they held off the Flood for something like 300 years. It wasn't until the AI switched sides and joined the Flood that they succeeded in overwhelming the Forrunners. I don't imagine the Flood could convince the Reapers to change sides.

Anyway, enough on the wild tangent. I tend to agree with you about the rock, paper, scissors aspect of the battle. Though I do think the SLDF cruiser has a bit of an advantage in assets. Off the top of my head, I can't think of one that didn't carry around fighters and dropships, and that could be a huge advantage, especially since among the 3, the Battletech equipment seems to be the least bothered by energy based point defense weapons.

As far as leaving the ECW out of the fight to level the playing field for the SLDF cruiser? I don't think it's really all that important. The interconnectivity of the SLDF equipment in battle was extremely limited. The only information being exchanged was voice and limited tactical data. And even within the ship, there was no overall computer control. The ship had a number of discrete computer systems that really didn't talk to each other. So while I'm certain Edi or Cortana could easily slip past the encryption, I don't know it would accomplish much. I could see it now... Edi hacks into the SLDF ship and takes over... the tactical display. While im sure having a hostile AI bombard the crew with strange alien **** wouldn't be an ideal battlefield situation, I don't think it would be exactly crippling either.

Edited by Fusea, 14 September 2012 - 03:59 PM.

[Catamount]

Zakatak, on 14 September 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

If the gun was to weigh about 15kg (sounds about right) and had no recoil management system, it would send the thing flying back at about 10m/s.

And I'm not convinced that 65kt is the yield of a MAC Cannon at full charge. Covy ships can have their shields taken down by a 30 megaton HORNET Mine without being fully destroyed. I understand 30 megatons means alot less in the vacuum of space, but 65kt gun compared to a 30mt nuke is still like shooting a pistol at a tiger tank. Although it probably isn't any of that teraton crap.

FIFTEEN KILOS?! I had a chance to clean and shoot a world war II .303 enfield a couple months back, and that thing weighed a ton (solid heavy wood ran the entire length of the gun, including the barrel), and it couldn't have been more than half that! The similarly sized Mossberg 100ATR (.30-06) that was also used that day, on the other hand, which is made using modern materials but materials still inferior to Halo's, weighs only about 3 kilos. I think 15 might be a bit of an overestimation

Edit (9/15): I do note the M82 is 13-14kg (I had no idea is what that much heavier than... well, everything), so it's not impossible. Still, weight's a lousy way to handle recoil, so as long as they can build a lighter gun (fair assumption; materials are more advanced), I would hope they would.

Still, you're right. Given a big enough weapon with advanced enough recoil control, it would at least be...manageable. As I said, I'm more apt to think there's just more technology possessed by the UNSC that we're aware of than that the figure itself has problems.


On the ships...eh, color me a bit skeptical. I'm not saying the idea is necessarily wrong, but I don't think support is quite there to overturn the provided outputs. Remember, too, that Covenant ship numbers on anything regarding energy should outstrip the UNSC. The Covenant has M/AM tech; the UNSC has fusion. The only advantage they have is that the Covenant doesn't actually understand most of their superior technology; innovation and competent design just isn't going to be their strong suit (in other words, the UNSC out-engineers them).

Quote

Hurray for fanwank. Halo is the only reason I haven't thrown out my Xbox.

Indeed. I finally get to finish Halo 3 now that someone has moved in next door with a 360. I've just bought a copy on Amazon (curse you, Microsoft, for stopping your PC release at Halo 2!)

Edited by Catamount, 15 September 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[Fusea]

So having read through the whole post, I have to say that I think people aren't giving Battletech enough credit. While they have the slowest ships, they also have the only ships that make use of actual directed energy weapons. Even the Covenant forces use sub light plasma torpedos. What that means is that the only the SLDF cruiser has instant hit weapons. That means that out to its maximum range, about 1000km, it can hit the target simply by pointing at it, where the other ships will have to lead the target and guess at possible maneuvers. And since everyone has speed of light sensors, the first warning anyone would have about the beam weapons would be their own melting hull. It also effectively negates the maneuverability advantage. It's very hard to see a laser coming with enough warning to jump out of the way. Even worse, since the SLDF cruiser mounts multiple weapons in each fire arc a clever gunnery commander would just order fire in a spread pattern to ensure that no matter what the target did, it would be hit by some of the weapons. Another trick would be using the missiles as an area denial system. I know where the missiles are going to go and so do you. You can take the pounding from the lasers and NPPCs or dodge into the missiles. Now as the absolutely slowest of the 3 the SLDF cruiser won't be able to capitalize on this advantage, but it could certainly keep either of the others out of its 'personal space.'

As far as boarding parties, the SLDF has the advantage hands down. With some of the SLDF ships carrying as many as 100 battlearmored marines, a boarding party of 50 standard infantry is going to be utterly destroyed. The battle armor carries heavy weapon, both anti infantry and anti armor. And once again, the dreaded directed energy weapons are on the list, along with high calibur machine guns and automatic grenade launchers. In both Halo and Mass Effect that kind of concentrated fire power makes short work of the suit shields.

And while most Btech cruisers would be using the jump points, they are by no means limited to those locations. The preference for jump points is in simplicity and security. It is much easier and safer to deploy the sails in the utterly empty space at the poles of a system, and there is less concern about jumping into a moon or an asteroid. It also makes it much easier for ships to transit to a known location than try to figure out where the captain will be bringing his ship in. It's perfectly possible for a warship to jump into empty space between stars and charge its drives and its batteries from its own reactor over the course of 3 or so days before double jumping another 60-80 light years. This would make the SLDF cruiser actually the fastest of the 3 for long distance travel. And unlike either of the other 2, it is completely untraceable. While both Halo and ME state that ships can be tracked in slip space and mass drive (even through multiple mass relays in ME3), a jumpship simply connects 2 points in space instantly.

So, with this in mind and the other posts, I would say the ME Cruiser would have the advantage at long ranges, the Btech Cruiser at medium ranges, and the Halo Cruiser takes the prize in the knife fight.

[mechasword]

dal10, on 26 December 2011 - 01:48 PM, said:

according to the wiki a ship board mac cannon fires at 64 kilotons. about twice what mass effect uses.

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[Bespoke Cheese Cake]

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[MarineTech]

[Bespoke Cheese Cake]

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[MarineTech]

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[Bespoke Cheese Cake]

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[MarineTech]

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[Bespoke Cheese Cake]

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[MarineTech]

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