198 replies to this topic

[Peace2U]

Since I started this topic, I have seen several others crop up with similar/same issues and comments.

For example:
https://mwomercs.com...e-new-assaults/
and
https://mwomercs.com...illed-by-pir-1/

What I have read and understand comes down to two lines of thinking.
1. The Piranha is Over Powered.
2. You need to aim better.

The 1st line of thinking appears to be based upon at least some verifiable facts:
a: The Piranha has a much higher than average kill or KMDD rate than any other light.
b: The kill/death ratio of the Piranha is also disproportionately higher than average.

The 2nd line of thinking, however, seems to depend heavily on perspective and speculation.
a: Only GOOD light pilots are scoring well with the Piranha.
b: Potatoes (inexperienced players) cannot kill the Piranha due to lack of skill/ability or situation awareness, and therefore become cannon fodder for the Piranha.
NOTE: Perspective/Speculation are in fact valid argument points and should be treated with the respect they deserve based upon their logic.
For example: If you are able to correctly aim and fire at the assaulting Piranha, you should be able to kill it easily.(this is true, but does not take into account poor hit registration/ping disparity with a small, fast light)
These are the types of things that have validity, but are difficult to quantify.

This discussion has, at times, become slightly heated because we have players who are passionate about the game.
THIS IS A GOOD THING.
We want passionate players who will help the game to grow in a positive direction, and who knows, maybe even help to increase our player base - - - -

I will only request that we put our heads together, regardless of your personal perspective on this issue, and try to come up with a viable solution to present to the developers that will not neuter the Piranha, but will make it have to work a little harder to get the kill.

Remember, It's a Game - Games are meant to help us have fun.
Let's work together on a solution and keep the fragging on the battlefield, where it belongs.

Peace-Out

[Y E O N N E]

You can look up the recorded performance statistics for the people saying "Piranha OP" and note that they trend worse than the players saying "git gud". So, is the "aim better" really all that speculative? I don't think so.

We haven't even agreed that the Piranha needs to be neutered at all, so let's get that straight before we agree to any compromise made purely to appease bads.

[John Bronco]

I've been on the fence on this, because they do take some skill to pilot. But then I played a game against 2 of them and an ACH supporting. Absolutely unstoppable. They need to lose some hardpoints.

[Y E O N N E]

A couple of Fleas and a Wolfhound supporting will make mincemeat of those Piranhas.

[Wil McCullough]

We should make the game nore similar to bt. That's what the lore nerds want, don't they?
We can start by changijg mg damage to be the same as in tt - the same as an ac2.

How's that?

[Dragonporn]

The real problem in this game is hard counter system it has, like when I run striker Light (Osiris f.e.), and I manage to go one on one with pretty much any Assault, it has absolutely no possibility to fight back, some builds cannot even aim at me, if they have high torso mounted weapons for example.

When you run Lights, getting hit by something like HGR means you didn't pay attention and enemy got potshot at you. Every decent Light pilot always picks very comfortable angle to close distance to its target, something that has agility and speed of a Light running at ~130 KMH doesn't need much armor, only paying attention and picking advantageous fights.

But that's not only it. Steaks are also ridiculous hard-counter to Lights, which is rather useless vs. anything else. Gauss is the same gimmick weapon, if you don't run it in arms, and somebody scratch backside of your ST, eat freaking explosion, but as a tradeoff you get weapon that can one hit kill most Lights and Mediums, and 2-3 hits kill some Heavies and even Assaults. We also get laservomit build, when you just pop your head, get 99% heat, sick pinpoint damage to enemy component and sit there cooling off. Same about MG boats, although PIR isn't the only one, just very good example. And don't even get me started on lurmboats...

All of this is very dumbed down, yet extremely effective systems to run. If game had much less of useful "one button metas", it would be a lot more fun to play, and many issues, along with TTK would be solved. I get that freedom of loadouts must exist, but some restrictions needed to avoid obvious cheese. Rack up ghost heat penalty for ALL lasers higher, let only one HG and maybe two normal Gauss to have, give mechs negative quirks for boating same weapon system overall, do something already.Those patches with +/-0.05% to some useless parameters just don't cut it anymore...

[thievingmagpi]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 September 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

You can look up the recorded performance statistics for the people saying "Piranha OP" and note that they trend worse than the players saying "git gud". So, is the "aim better" really all that speculative? I don't think so.

We haven't even agreed that the Piranha needs to be neutered at all, so let's get that straight before we agree to any compromise made purely to appease bads.

I'm very open to my average stats, and am one of the people saying Piranha OP. I say this because it's my best mech by a lot, and I feel like that's not due to my (average) skill.

I think it's also important to state that "OP" is a continuum. Things can be..a bit OP, and things can be really OP. I'd put the PIR in the "a bit OP" category. It's not pre-nerf Kodiak OP, which wasn't Long Tom complete obliteration OP.

The "it's only a bit OP" may become exaggerated, in that it appears "very OP" as a result of being dumped into matches with people who can't aim.

I think the mechanics that make it "a little bit OP" should be addressed. However, the systems that allow it to run amok with near impunity are not mechanical game systems, those are just player habits and any talk of nerfs should not be coloured by that.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

thievingmagpi, on 19 September 2018 - 09:02 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure at least one Stuart took out a Tiger by shooting it in the back

The stuart shot it underneath in North Africa. The Tiger was coming towards them and the tank commander waited for it to cross an incline in the earth. When it was propped up to climb over, they shot it underneath and took it out. Pretty sure that was the first Tiger the Western Allies captured.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 25 September 2018 - 03:31 PM.

[Navid A1]

Hey, OP.

Do you have a Piranha?

Have you tried piloting a Piranha?

[Peace2U]

To answer the previous question, I do not own or have piloted a piranha.
I have been in many matches where both my team and the opposing team had them, and was able to witness their effectiveness 1st hand.
Also spent time watching many videos of both Pir pilots and those who have been unfortunate enough to run into them.
Have also been on the receiving end of their assault myself, and was only able to kill them a small percentage of the time.
If they travel in pairs, or are accompanied by another fast light, I can hear the fat lady sing every time, regardless of the chassis I am sporting.

So there is no misunderstanding, I am not in favor of nerfing this chassis until is becomes 'average'.
However, based upon recent feedback and facts that support them, the piranha is clearly punching above it's weight class.
I am in favor of some minor adjustment to not only prevent this little guy from ruling the battlefield, but still remain a viable threat.

Since it has so many hard points, you cannot blame the pilots for filling them up, and utilizing the mech to it's maximum potential.

My solution would be to provide a universal heat penalty across all chassis for firing more than 4 mg continuously.
This will keep the piranha pilots happy because they won't feel they are being picked on, and will cause any mech firing more than 4 mg to have to release the trigger after a continuous burst of, let's say 6 seconds, to let his gun barrels cool off for a few seconds.
I will apologize right now if my numbers seem unrealistic, however I would appreciate some correct data on a proper way to control the fire rate on machine gun boats (not just the piranha).

Help me out here, guys and gals.
Remember we arn't trying to neuter machine gun boats (like the piranha), just give them a reason to let up on the continuous stream of lead for a few seconds once in a while.

I would imagine a piranha pilot would not want to overheat while standing on the feet of a 100 ton mech (visualize THAT in your mind's eye).

Thanks everyone for your valuable feedback.

[Y E O N N E]

A penalty for more than four MGs penalizes 'Mechs that have more than 4, and less than 12, that are not performing at the same level.

No.

[UnofficialOperator]

Can't wait to get my cbill flea then we will see more excuses...

[thievingmagpi]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 September 2018 - 05:05 PM, said:

A penalty for more than four MGs penalizes 'Mechs that have more than 4, and less than 12, that are not performing at the same level.

No.

I've felt that putting a GH penalty at 8 might work. This way the MLX is set as the top benchmark fro MG performance and it is not affected.

What the ghost heat means is that you can still open up with 12 mgs, but you would need to be a bit more conservative and/or strategic about it. You can fire of a few bursts of 12 at critted enemies for shorter periods of time as your heat spikes, but no more just holding down the fire button and just running around watching stuff fly off of enemies.

I feel like it would still be very effective, but would cut down on those kills that even I feel are pretty cheap. I've definitely run up into the top of HPG or mining and just ran around like a madman not really aiming and come away with a handful of kills.

[Variant1]

people still think the mg piranah is op? id argue the laser piranah is more op because it doesnt run out of ammo and doesnt need to waste so much tonnage on ammo.

Infact i had a match a few days ago on my treb, holy cow the laser pirnah needs get a nerf bat. They need to bump the ghost heat for micro to 8, aply a ton of negative heat gen and cooldown quirks because this thing is ridiculous.
https://imgur.com/a/NWaKoK5


So i encountered a 10 micro pulse piranah, alone in 1v1. the thing shot so fast it was ridiculous, its a 27 alpha with very little heat, and with heat gen and cooldown in the "skill" tree it can shoot that thing way more often/faster for little to no heat. Either people start realizing the "skill" tree is a bad idea or PGI cranks out a nerfbat to the laser piranah because that thing is definently op

edit: had i not been nearby teamates i would have been dead because i could barely shoot back because of how quick the cooldown "skill" tree allowed the pir to shoot

Edited by Variant1, 25 September 2018 - 08:51 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

It's a 90 meter gun...the epitome of high risk, high reward.

[Tonberry Knife]

I would like someone to explain to me why the Piranha gets all of those hardpoints, small hitboxes and a "pass" as a glass cannon when other lights do not.

You may not think the Piranha is OP in terms of overall gameplay but among lights, it is definitely OP. Then you'll probably say "Let's buff other lights to the Piranha's level!" You know PGI isn't going to do that because it would involve both resizing and re-quirking all of the other lights to bring them in line with the Piranha.

So where do we go from here? It's still a problem regardless if you want to admit it or not.

Edited by Tonberry Knife, 25 September 2018 - 09:18 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

It's not OP against Wolfhounds, Urbanmechs, Mist Lynxes, Arctic Cheetahs, Commandos, and Fleas in their current states.

[dario03]

Tonberry Knife, on 25 September 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

I would like someone to explain to me why the Piranha gets all of those hardpoints, small hitboxes and a "pass" as a glass cannon when other lights do not.

You may not think the Piranha is OP in terms of overall gameplay but among lights, it is definitely OP. Then you'll probably say "Let's buff other lights to the Piranha's level!" You know PGI isn't going to do that because it would involve both resizing and re-quirking all of the other lights to bring them in line with the Piranha.

So where do we go from here? It's still a problem regardless if you want to admit it or not.

Re-size for a lot of mechs could be done by just reverting them to what they used to be. But if they don't want to do that then just re quirking could be done. A lot of lights have very little quirks.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Variant1, on 25 September 2018 - 08:49 PM, said:

people still think the mg piranah is op? id argue the laser piranah is more op because it doesnt run out of ammo and doesnt need to waste so much tonnage on ammo.

Infact i had a match a few days ago on my treb, holy cow the laser pirnah needs get a nerf bat. They need to bump the ghost heat for micro to 8, aply a ton of negative heat gen and cooldown quirks because this thing is ridiculous.
https://imgur.com/a/NWaKoK5


So i encountered a 10 micro pulse piranah, alone in 1v1. the thing shot so fast it was ridiculous, its a 27 alpha with very little heat, and with heat gen and cooldown in the "skill" tree it can shoot that thing way more often/faster for little to no heat. Either people start realizing the "skill" tree is a bad idea or PGI cranks out a nerfbat to the laser piranah because that thing is definently op

edit: had i not been nearby teamates i would have been dead because i could barely shoot back because of how quick the cooldown "skill" tree allowed the pir to shoot

You're an LRM boat fighting a light mech at close range 1v1. You 100% deserved to lose that fight.

[Lethe Wyvern]

Tonberry Knife, on 25 September 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

You may not think the Piranha is OP in terms of overall gameplay but among lights, it is definitely OP.

Can we find out on the basis of what criteria such a conclusion was drawn? Like: "1)blabla 2)blabla... etc"