226 replies to this topic

[S O L A I S]

Mystere, on 25 September 2018 - 09:08 PM, said:

How many of the great commanders in history were front-line fighters?

But...this is a game. So it is more relevant to ask how many great chess teachers/coaches were bad at playing chess?

[S O L A I S]

Variant1, on 30 September 2018 - 07:08 PM, said:

The game should be about having fun not winning, winning is the effect of playing both players can have fun winning/losing to assume that only winning is fun is arbitrary. Also dont smack talk 3rd person vehicle combat games are best played in third person, and maybe some of us like looking at our mechs and shooting at the same time?

No one does the "dont press r" its only a minority of players, that or most likely inexperienced ones. Also most of us dont use voip because real men type with keyboards and can play just as well as those that use voip. From my experience playing pugs, pugs can play pretty well without comms, infact silent matches feel like the players work things out without a single word is impressive.

Oh gees....

There are lots of games that meet your requirement that games 'should' be about 'fun' and not winning. This however is not one of those games.

This is a combat game, based on combat, with a combat focus. There are some modes with alternate win conditions, but killing everyone is the go to.

So that you are playing this combat game with clear defined win conditions and that you think winning is not important is great for you. It does however not mesh or bode well for the poor folks stuck playing with someone not concerned with trying to win while they are.

[S O L A I S]

Mystere, on 01 October 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

Folks, Alexander The Great and Julius Caesar did not become great commanders through genetics. They had to learn how to become one. Thus, if people are not given the chance and practice, how are they supposed to learn?

Except you don't take command of an army if you have not yet learned to shoot, or read a map, or know where to go or what to look for......

[S O L A I S]

Khobai, on 03 October 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

no. you cant deliberately stack teams in sports. thats why they do player drafts and have max team salaries to prevent deliberate stacking. MWO has no such safeguards and stupidly allows players to stack one team with all the best players to ensure victory.

im referring to group queue primarily. but also syncdropping in solo queue. syncdropping is in essence a way to team stack in solo queue.

Absolutely. It is the definition of building a goddamed team: A goddamned unfair stacked team that abuses the lack of a matchmaker to give itself an unfair advantage.

When you stack an unnatural number of good players on one team, without a matchmaker to equally balance the number of good players on both teams, youre robbing the other team of having a fair chance to win.

I dont believe I said it was against the rules in MWO.

I just said it was a condoned form of cheating in MWO. PGI may turn their head the other way and ignore the problem, but it is still very much cheating IMO.

Youre abusing the system to gain an unfair advantage. That is by definition cheating. It may not be against the rules, so in that sense its perhaps a lesser form of cheating, but its still certainly unfair and unsportsmanlike. Theres no other way of looking at it: its taking advantage of the system to give your team a deliberate and superbly unfair advantage.

One of the primary reasons PGI hasn't reacted to rampant form of cheating by good players grouping up, is that they and pretty much the entire rest of the world don't agree with your warped reasoning or mental gymnastics used to conclude that this is cheating.

In fact you should start by getting your head around what an unfair advantage means instead of trying to take it out to left field to fit your peculiar narrative. Like I mean really dig deep and consider what an unfair advantage really and truly and actually means. Hint, it's not 'but they're better than me, unfair!'

[BumbaCLot]

Aramuside, on 26 September 2018 - 01:58 AM, said:

I'm just presuming this is a troll thread because telling people not to call is so dumb its unbelievable....

With the stat padding people do via solaris the stats are almost literally meaningless without a breakdown of match types, group and solo.

It gets even worse as I know a couple of very good drop callers that play almost nothing except FW so essentially don't appear at all....

Solaris stats don't go on Jarl's list or the monthly leaderboards.
Huh?

[BumbaCLot]

Variant1, on 03 October 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

im super cereal. playing the game should be for fun not winning. this win win mentality is not good for any communities health since theres always going to be a losing team

Well im also going to propose a counter to that, its not fun winning when your enemy team is down a whole bunch of guys, its not fun winning when matchmaker paired all the alpha strikers on one team and a bunch of mixed builds on the other. Fun should be more focused on playing and having a good time not winning. Because ive had games where i lost and had fun, those are the games where it usually are close games, or that odd game where the last enemies run out of ammo then it becomes a hilarious slap fight. Its especialy fun when you engage with the enemy and your injured team has to push against turrets on incursiona nd everyone dies to them XD.

Yeah 3rd person in mwo isint exactly advanageous but i like playing in it anyway, because i play for fun, i dont go all out meta cheese builds to stat pad and win because thats not fun.

From the 4-5 posts I've read from you about 'real men use keyboards' and the nonsense you talk in this thread, I don't think you have the ability to stat pad, win, play meta (alpha strikers?) or whatever else it is you think people do in this game.

But hey keep on playing in 3rd person and having fun! I'm just glad I made it to Tier 2 so I don't have to deal with the worst of the worst and the new players that have 3 more tiers to go to get away from all the nonsense.

And while we are on this thread, yes, there is one person that motivated me more than any other to get into Tier 2 ASAP.
He drop calls, doesn't shoot anyone, is on the leaderboard (as it is ranked by wins only) every month, and was the first and only person I have ever muted in this game.
As the OP isn't in Tier 3 4 or 5, he is safe from this person. But I'm sure more than a few of you know who I am talking about.
I wouldn't even be so mad if he just shot things from time to time. But seriously? Who are the people in this game who go on and on about 'having fun' and 'teamwork' and 'shooting mechs when others are shooting them' who have never gotten a solo kill, broken 100 damage, and have played this game for years?
It literally boggles my mind.
I'm not the quickest guy, best shot, way too impatient, and typically the first person to die as I run out to shoot the enemies way too often, but I typically put 4-500 damage out before I crumple. But man some people think it's ok to not do over 100 damage per game forever? Can they not divide the winning team's damage by 12 and realize that's not how this works?

[Vxheous]

BumbaCLot, on 04 October 2018 - 09:53 PM, said:

From the 4-5 posts I've read from you about 'real men use keyboards' and the nonsense you talk in this thread, I don't think you have the ability to stat pad, win, play meta (alpha strikers?) or whatever else it is you think people do in this game.

But hey keep on playing in 3rd person and having fun! I'm just glad I made it to Tier 2 so I don't have to deal with the worst of the worst and the new players that have 3 more tiers to go to get away from all the nonsense.

And while we are on this thread, yes, there is one person that motivated me more than any other to get into Tier 2 ASAP.
He drop calls, doesn't shoot anyone, is on the leaderboard (as it is ranked by wins only) every month, and was the first and only person I have ever muted in this game.
As the OP isn't in Tier 3 4 or 5, he is safe from this person. But I'm sure more than a few of you know who I am talking about.
I wouldn't even be so mad if he just shot things from time to time. But seriously? Who are the people in this game who go on and on about 'having fun' and 'teamwork' and 'shooting mechs when others are shooting them' who have never gotten a solo kill, broken 100 damage, and have played this game for years?
It literally boggles my mind.
I'm not the quickest guy, best shot, way too impatient, and typically the first person to die as I run out to shoot the enemies way too often, but I typically put 4-500 damage out before I crumple. But man some people think it's ok to not do over 100 damage per game forever? Can they not divide the winning team's damage by 12 and realize that's not how this works?

Hey, someone that's not a "top tier" player gets it! This is what most high skilled players want out of the rest of the population, players that'll at least try their best and learn from their mistakes, instead of blaming others on why they lose/suck/whatever.

I hate to break it to you though, Tier 1 is the worst, because you'll get the biggest range of skill there, from true Tier 1's, to those that made it there through sheer amount of games played that are worse than many Tier 3's.

[torgian]

A long time ago, when I last played this game, I tried to be a commander in drop-in games. Failed, won, and some people were {Richard Cameron}. Overall I had a pleasant experience.

If I came back tot his game, I'd probably just be the humorous ******* pretending to be in the army and screaming "oh s***! I'm getting my a** punctured by this a******!!!!" and generally don't give a ****. lol

[Kroete]

Khobai, on 03 October 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

unfortunately its a form of cheating that PGI condones... because to disallow it would require them to take action and build a functional matchmaker to manage group queue which PGI is either incapable or unwilling to do.

If its allowed its not cheating by its definiton, its just compplay
like editing the ini and playing on low gfx,
using every exploit like syncdropping,
trying to get pugs against groups in cw, instead fighting against other groups,
bragging over stats, even if you know that the inflated numbers comes from stomping small groups with big groups in gp, just using every little exploit to get an adventage and using the same excuses as cheaters for their doings.

But they are no cheaters, they are just playing it competive.

Edited by Kroete, 05 October 2018 - 02:02 AM.

[R0gal D0rn]

Kroete, on 05 October 2018 - 02:01 AM, said:

If its allowed its not cheating by its definiton, its just compplay
like editing the ini and playing on low gfx,
using every exploit like syncdropping,
trying to get pugs against groups in cw, instead fighting against other groups,
bragging over stats, even if you know that the inflated numbers comes from stomping small groups with big groups in gp, just using every little exploit to get an adventage and using the same excuses as cheaters for their doings.

But they are no cheaters, they are just playing it competive.

Good point. I ask to myself how many time can a player still lying to himself calling " growing better" to a simple acumulation of exploits. If winnig to all costs is the simple and only goal, why even play yourself the game? The most intelligent tactic is to Hire a real good player to win for you. Think it twice: this is the best exploit ever. But people don´t go to this extreme because 1) is not fun 2) There are limits about how much you can lie to yourself...

Study the maps, practice my aiming, try all the mechs and know their weak spots, analize setups, training with unit mates... All this gives you an advantage... But you feel it as a deserved advantage. Something you worked for.

In SQ one of the skills you work is the adaptability to unknow teams. The capacity to adapt your build to a random map. Whitout syncro drops those skills are very important.
But whn you syncro drop in SQ , you are not "Playing competitive". You are trying to ensure better conditions for your team BEFORE the match starts. You are putting some inches more to your sword, you´re puting plaster in the bandages under your gloves. Not less.

[K O Z A K]

Not that I'm condoning SQ sync dropping, but the complaining about it is confusing to me. Do you people not realize you basically have a 50/50 chance of ending up on opposing sides of the drop? (Probably higher if you and your buddies trying to sync are T1 and the drop is being built with other tiers)

[Prototelis]

It's a little easier to do in group queue by utilizing odd numbered teams and because population at peak in the middle of the week is a little low.

It gets a little old when you face the same synced team a few times in a row, but it is very rewarding when your 12 man busts the **** out of a synced 12 man.

[Weeny Machine]

Shadowomega1, on 25 September 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

Yet people still complain every time I say take the top. I end up taking it by myself, then getting bent over as their assaults, all come up and forced off while 1 of our slowest assaults goes around the outermost ring against the wall, and the rest of the team goes around the mid ring. The outer ring assault starts whining about lights, and one of the other slow assaults that didn't even poke the top of the ramp is now yelling about NASCARing. *facepalm* Looks at the end of the match score and is the only one to breach 400 damage in a mech that was in tatters from attempting to hold the top till backup arrived. (In a medium mech no less) and I see charlie lance with a grand total around 400 damage between the 4 mechs. Getting real tired of people who can not use assaults properly, wasting time, and space for those who can.

The assaults I see these days are...

1. busy running away from the enemy (hey, why hold the line?) that's what heavies and mediums are fore, right?
2. running after their lights than cry about nascaring
3. are afk/dc

[thievingmagpi]

People complaining about sync dropping clearly have no idea what it is, how it works or what it does. It's not cheating, it's not exploiting, it's not "stacking your team", it's not " basically group queue". If that were the case my solo queue w/l would be at like 90% but it's not.

[Weeny Machine]

thievingmagpi, on 05 October 2018 - 10:06 AM, said:

People complaining about sync dropping clearly have no idea what it is, how it works or what it does. It's not cheating, it's not exploiting, it's not "stacking your team", it's not " basically group queue". If that were the case my solo queue w/l would be at like 90% but it's not.

It is a kind of exploitation. Simply because you are -trying- to bypass the randomness of the solo queue.

Ask yourself: If you weren't profiting from doing it, would you do it?

[Eisenhorne]

Bush Hopper, on 05 October 2018 - 11:24 AM, said:

It is a kind of exploitation. Simply because you are -trying- to bypass the randomness of the solo queue.

Ask yourself: If you weren't profiting from doing it, would you do it?

Yes, because it's more fun to kill my friends than random puggles on the other side.

[thievingmagpi]

Bush Hopper, on 05 October 2018 - 11:24 AM, said:

It is a kind of exploitation. Simply because you are -trying- to bypass the randomness of the solo queue.

Ask yourself: If you weren't profiting from doing it, would you do it?

Because it's fun to see people you know.

Better competition.

[R0gal D0rn]

HIlarious...


Yes, it´s a luck. may people doing syncro in solo are... incompetent enough to not be winning all the time. Oh, mate, "Steroids are not that cheat, I have lost competitions despite using them "
Some others are trying to hide how easy is ,if you know how, to get 8 times of every 10 a entire lance in the same team.

But the most hilarious is "No, this is not an advantage...We make it for the giggles. we face each other"

I make it for the giggles in a private match... Is the place to go for the giggles. Capito? XD
If you do iut in the solo queue, isn´t only for the giggles... That´s sure.

[MischiefSC]

Sometimes I see other KCom on my side or the other side in QP. We don't sync drop but since we play together a lot we're in approximately the same skill range, so it's not surprising.

Amazingly enough the match still plays out like if it was a bunch of total strangers.

While I get that sync dropping is an issue and feels like cheating the system and in theory it potentially could - however realize that the matchmaker is still doing its (broken) best to try and skill match teams as much as any other match and it's not like I have special magic words I can only speak in Teamspeak or Discord and couldn't/wouldn't use in VOIP. The only advantage you would get is that the odds of there being at least 1 other person on your team who isn't an absolute and abject failure/coward goes to 100% instead of whatever it currently is.

Again, sync dropping is bad and people should feel bad for doing it. Just play in freaking group queue. If you're only 2 or 3 people you can play whatever you want tonnage wise anyway. However people sync dropping are going to have a slightly-above statistically irrelevant impact on their win/loss anyway.

The good players are winning more because they're making better choices, bringing better mechs and have put more effort into learning to hit what they're aiming at. That's it.

As to people saying the game shouldn't be about winning.... I find this a really dishonest thing to say. If the people in question didn't actually care about winning then their game experience would be 100% disconnected from other people playing to win. The only basis for the complaint is that since other people are putting more effort into the game than they are the person saying 'winning doesn't matter' is winning less and is upset by it.

If you didn't care about winning then other people caring about winning and the success of their team and wanting to be a contributor instead of a drag on their team wouldn't be an issue. These sorts of arguments are fundamentally dishonest because they attempt to demonize anyone (or anything) that exceeds their self-set criteria for 'moral way to play'. It's akin to saying playing Chess using any established competent opening gambit is 'bad' because you should.... only make poor choices, so that if the person you're playing doesn't really know how to play chess they won't feel bad about their inevitable loss instead of doing what everyone else has done and actually learned to play.

If you want to win more often, do what every single player who's beating you has done and put effort into playing better. That's the fundamental basis of PvP games. This isn't coop. This game is PvP. The only way to play this game is as part of a team of players who are playing AGAINST another team of players. One side will win and one will lose. That's the game. If that's not the game you want to play then FFS why are you here? This isn't something people are doing to you to be mean, you've logged in to and launched into a game that's designed exactly that way. The only 'cheating' or 'griefing' in this situation is people who have launched into a team v team PvP game but refuse to to actually play as part of a team to win against the other team.

Quit trying to make excuses. We're years past the point where learning what works in this game is a mystery or a question. Stop blaming other people, quit trying to justify poor choices, quit trying to pretend this game isn't a team based PvP game. Learn what works, play as part of your team and quit being dead weight. If your w/l is lower than 1.2 you're pretty much being carried. To be a burden to the other 11 people on your team and then complain that all those people having to work harder to carry you are 'being mean' by putting in the effort to carry you is hypocritical in the extreme.

[Variant1]

S O L A I S, on 04 October 2018 - 08:55 PM, said:

Oh gees....
There are lots of games that meet your requirement that games 'should' be about 'fun' and not winning. This however is not one of those games.

This is a combat game, based on combat, with a combat focus. There are some modes with alternate win conditions, but killing everyone is the go to.

So that you are playing this combat game with clear defined win conditions and that you think winning is not important is great for you. It does however not mesh or bode well for the poor folks stuck playing with someone not concerned with trying to win while they are.

Except its not, every game is about playing for fun and not for winning. Its only in competitive is when you play to win aginst other pro comp teams. its when players complain in puglandia that pugs are playing like pugs. Not everyone is going to be boring and just google the most min max cheese build that milks every drop of the min maxing "skill" tree in order to get the most ct deleting alpha. most players simply build the mech they want (albeit soemtimes even i admit there are some questionable build) but for the most part they are functional just not meta tryhard levels of functional. Since the moajority of QP players are the non min maxing crowd its in the best interest of pro players to not tell them how to play, like chillax and have fun, theres no need for this "equip 100 alpha ct deleting" in match with randoms, just chilax shoot some mechs. only do that l33t comp stuff against other premades.

BumbaCLot, on 04 October 2018 - 09:53 PM, said:

From the 4-5 posts I've read from you about 'real men use keyboards' and the nonsense you talk in this thread, I don't think you have the ability to stat pad, win, play meta (alpha strikers?) or whatever else it is you think people do in this game.

But hey keep on playing in 3rd person and having fun! I'm just glad I made it to Tier 2 so I don't have to deal with the worst of the worst and the new players that have 3 more tiers to go to get away from all the nonsense.

And while we are on this thread, yes, there is one person that motivated me more than any other to get into Tier 2 ASAP.
He drop calls, doesn't shoot anyone, is on the leaderboard (as it is ranked by wins only) every month, and was the first and only person I have ever muted in this game.
As the OP isn't in Tier 3 4 or 5, he is safe from this person. But I'm sure more than a few of you know who I am talking about.
I wouldn't even be so mad if he just shot things from time to time. But seriously? Who are the people in this game who go on and on about 'having fun' and 'teamwork' and 'shooting mechs when others are shooting them' who have never gotten a solo kill, broken 100 damage, and have played this game for years?
It literally boggles my mind.
I'm not the quickest guy, best shot, way too impatient, and typically the first person to die as I run out to shoot the enemies way too often, but I typically put 4-500 damage out before I crumple. But man some people think it's ok to not do over 100 damage per game forever? Can they not divide the winning team's damage by 12 and realize that's not how this works?

Thats because i play for fun, if i wanted to i could equip some mechs with the most cheese min max build that cores mechs out quick with min maxing nodes to boot with only 2 weapon groups, but that wouldnt be fun, it wouldnt be my mech, it would just be another cookie cutter mech designed to crunch the most numbers in order to be the optimized "you can only win with this mech build" mech. That wouldnt be fun for me, and most certainly isint fun for most of the players. I recomend you try out a build that isint part of the main mech builds, build to your tastes, try to get more than 2 weapons groups if it doesnt work out after a few matches thats fine you can keep playing with the your default build its fine. Just try to understand not everyone is going to play with optimized build going for quick kills, after all the games mechlab is designed for people to build their own loadout doesnt necessarily mean it has to be the top tier build.