226 replies to this topic

[Vxheous]

Variant1, on 05 October 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

Except its not, every game is about playing for fun and not for winning. Its only in competitive is when you play to win aginst other pro comp teams. its when players complain in puglandia that pugs are playing like pugs. Not everyone is going to be boring and just google the most min max cheese build that milks every drop of the min maxing "skill" tree in order to get the most ct deleting alpha. most players simply build the mech they want (albeit soemtimes even i admit there are some questionable build) but for the most part they are functional just not meta tryhard levels of functional. Since the moajority of QP players are the non min maxing crowd its in the best interest of pro players to not tell them how to play, like chillax and have fun, theres no need for this "equip 100 alpha ct deleting" in match with randoms, just chilax shoot some mechs. only do that l33t comp stuff against other premades.

Thats because i play for fun, if i wanted to i could equip some mechs with the most cheese min max build that cores mechs out quick with min maxing nodes to boot with only 2 weapon groups, but that wouldnt be fun, it wouldnt be my mech, it would just be another cookie cutter mech designed to crunch the most numbers in order to be the optimized "you can only win with this mech build" mech. That wouldnt be fun for me, and most certainly isint fun for most of the players. I recomend you try out a build that isint part of the main mech builds, build to your tastes, try to get more than 2 weapons groups if it doesnt work out after a few matches thats fine you can keep playing with the your default build its fine. Just try to understand not everyone is going to play with optimized build going for quick kills, after all the games mechlab is designed for people to build their own loadout doesnt necessarily mean it has to be the top tier build.

Holy c*ap you have more forum posts than games played

[K O Z A K]

Vxheous, on 05 October 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

Holy c*ap you have more forum posts than games played

that should be like a badge or something

[Variant1]

Vxheous, on 05 October 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

Holy c*ap you have more forum posts than games played

welp looks like ive become a forum warrior

[MischiefSC]

So here's the thing. If I drop in a game and you're on my team I have to play harder to help my team succeed than I would with someone else on my team. Also good players who understand the meta can and do play non-meta mechs and still dominate - because they understand the game better and play better and play to win.

It is 100% false to say that people with a good w/l only have a good w/l because they only play select meta mechs. Some of the best players in the game drive wins in LRM boats (which otherwise historically tank a teams w/l even when putting up good damage).

The whole 'I only play for fun' is disingenuous. We all play for fun. If you didn't find winning fun you wouldn't even be having this conversation. Of course winning is more fun than losing. I have more fun when I help my team succeed than when I am responsible for dragging my team to failure. If winning wasn't more fun than losing people would be looking for new ways to lose. None of that is the case.

[S O L A I S]

Variant1, on 05 October 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

Except its not, every game is about playing for fun and not for winning. Its only in competitive is when you play to win aginst other pro comp teams. its when players complain in puglandia that pugs are playing like pugs. Not everyone is going to be boring and just google the most min max cheese build that milks every drop of the min maxing "skill" tree in order to get the most ct deleting alpha. most players simply build the mech they want (albeit soemtimes even i admit there are some questionable build) but for the most part they are functional just not meta tryhard levels of functional. Since the moajority of QP players are the non min maxing crowd its in the best interest of pro players to not tell them how to play, like chillax and have fun, theres no need for this "equip 100 alpha ct deleting" in match with randoms, just chilax shoot some mechs. only do that l33t comp stuff against other premades.

Thats because i play for fun, if i wanted to i could equip some mechs with the most cheese min max build that cores mechs out quick with min maxing nodes to boot with only 2 weapon groups, but that wouldnt be fun, it wouldnt be my mech, it would just be another cookie cutter mech designed to crunch the most numbers in order to be the optimized "you can only win with this mech build" mech. That wouldnt be fun for me, and most certainly isint fun for most of the players. I recomend you try out a build that isint part of the main mech builds, build to your tastes, try to get more than 2 weapons groups if it doesnt work out after a few matches thats fine you can keep playing with the your default build its fine. Just try to understand not everyone is going to play with optimized build going for quick kills, after all the games mechlab is designed for people to build their own loadout doesnt necessarily mean it has to be the top tier build.

Except you are wrong. People who play games try to win at them. Even monopoly. What you want is a Hello Kitty type game with participation rewards. This game is not that, it is one were people at all levels are trying to get a w.

[dustNbone]

Sometimes you have to speak up, like to point out that you're up 5 kills and there's no reason to continue hiding like scared little girls. Or when half the enemy team breaks off to chase a Cicada. Pointing these things out to an incoherent team can put an end to the match quick.

Edited by dustNbone, 05 October 2018 - 05:10 PM.

[Variant1]

MischiefSC, on 05 October 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

So here's the thing. If I drop in a game and you're on my team I have to play harder to help my team succeed than I would with someone else on my team. Also good players who understand the meta can and do play non-meta mechs and still dominate - because they understand the game better and play better and play to win.

It is 100% false to say that people with a good w/l only have a good w/l because they only play select meta mechs. Some of the best players in the game drive wins in LRM boats (which otherwise historically tank a teams w/l even when putting up good damage).

The whole 'I only play for fun' is disingenuous. We all play for fun. If you didn't find winning fun you wouldn't even be having this conversation. Of course winning is more fun than losing. I have more fun when I help my team succeed than when I am responsible for dragging my team to failure. If winning wasn't more fun than losing people would be looking for new ways to lose. None of that is the case.

Depends. if you in group queue sure it makes sense each team member should do their best. But not in quickplay, yes player should play but not with the most optimized build. Just try not to take qp seriously since most players just play in that queue for fun, thats why some tier 5 habits are the same in tier1. Getting salty over bad play in a mode where randoms of different skill level are matched isnt good for ones health. The only thing i could say qp needs in terms of mm, is for mm to balance loadouts and match score to get players evenly matched up for closer matches. ive had fun losses when matches were close, and had bad matches where i won because it was lopsided. the thing is if you did good in qp with high kills dmg thats fine means your a good player, but doesnt mean you should stress because your team lost after all its qp pugs will be pugs, what im tryin to say is have fun playing regardless of match outcome, caht with the pugs and chill. Only bring your a game in groups or faction play, when matched against other high level players.

S O L A I S, on 05 October 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

Except you are wrong. People who play games try to win at them. Even monopoly. What you want is a Hello Kitty type game with participation rewards. This game is not that, it is one were people at all levels are trying to get a w.

And what do you do in between starting and finishing a game? having fun. Wouldnt it make sense to have fun win or lose? its all people having fun in combat and the end result of that fun ends in either a win or loss.

[MischiefSC]

Variant1, on 05 October 2018 - 05:21 PM, said:

Depends. if you in group queue sure it makes sense each team member should do their best. But not in quickplay, yes player should play but not with the most optimized build. Just try not to take qp seriously since most players just play in that queue for fun, thats why some tier 5 habits are the same in tier1. Getting salty over bad play in a mode where randoms of different skill level are matched isnt good for ones health. The only thing i could say qp needs in terms of mm, is for mm to balance loadouts and match score to get players evenly matched up for closer matches. ive had fun losses when matches were close, and had bad matches where i won because it was lopsided. the thing is if you did good in qp with high kills dmg thats fine means your a good player, but doesnt mean you should stress because your team lost after all its qp pugs will be pugs, what im tryin to say is have fun playing regardless of match outcome, caht with the pugs and chill. Only bring your a game in groups or faction play, when matched against other high level players.

And what do you do in between starting and finishing a game? having fun. Wouldnt it make sense to have fun win or lose? its all people having fun in combat and the end result of that fun ends in either a win or loss.

You keep trying to pretend that winning isn't fun. That's not true and disingenuous. People play for fun and still try to win. That's the expectation. It's actually in the Code of Conduct. Here, right form Code of Conduct:

Quote

Initiating the search for a match should be seen as an unspoken commitment to all other players who will be placed into the same match.

Your team is playing to win the match. If you're not, then you're sandbagging your team and making a worse experience for the community as a whole.

[Variant1]

MischiefSC, on 05 October 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

You keep trying to pretend that winning isn't fun. That's not true and disingenuous. People play for fun and still try to win. That's the expectation. It's actually in the Code of Conduct. Here, right form Code of Conduct:

Your team is playing to win the match. If you're not, then you're sandbagging your team and making a worse experience for the community as a whole.

how so? im saying the game should be played for fun win or lose. the experience in question not the result. obviously teams goal is to destroy enemy mechs or complete secondary objective. The problem here is expecting high level play in a mode that pairs randoms together. thats like expecting the dice to always land on the same number. Thing im trying to say is to have fun in pugs by not stressing, if you get high kills good on you your a good player but its arbitrary to expect that randoms are always going to be the same skill level. its a fact that most players that play quick play are more casual than high level comp players, jus sayin be more kind to those potatos otherwise youll end up starving when they go away . if you did your part with lots of dmg and kills why stress if your team lost?

Also it against coc to talk about coc jus sayin

[Kroete]

MischiefSC, on 05 October 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

Your team is playing to win the match. If you're not, then you're sandbagging your team and making a worse experience for the community as a whole.

I think everyone trys to win, but not everyone at all costs.

The majority trys to win, build their mechs themself, have fun and dont take it serious (fun>win),
the minority try to win too, but they are playing it competive (win=fun),
using spreadsheet mechs and everything thats not forbidden.

Lots of people miss that the forum is not the playerbase, its a small minority of the playerbase, but the comppeople are more often using the forums, making it a bubble with a interchanged population numbers implementing that there are more comppeople then fun people.

If you cant bear the randomness of pugplay, go play the other queues or solaris.
You will never change 90% of the players, most of them will never read the forums
and if you moan or rage in teamspeak, they will mute you,
if they dont have turned if off allready.

Edited by Kroete, 06 October 2018 - 02:26 AM.

[thievingmagpi]

Tirant Lo Blanc, on 05 October 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

HIlarious...


Yes, it´s a luck. may people doing syncro in solo are... incompetent enough to not be winning all the time. Oh, mate, "Steroids are not that cheat, I have lost competitions despite using them "
Some others are trying to hide how easy is ,if you know how, to get 8 times of every 10 a entire lance in the same team.

But the most hilarious is "No, this is not an advantage...We make it for the giggles. we face each other"

I make it for the giggles in a private match... Is the place to go for the giggles. Capito? XD
If you do iut in the solo queue, isn´t only for the giggles... That´s sure.

My point that you complainers don't know how sync dropping works mechanically is demonstrated here.

Getting the same people on your team in multiple games is luck.

Edited by thievingmagpi, 06 October 2018 - 09:23 AM.

[Geek Verve]

MischiefSC, on 05 October 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

So here's the thing. If I drop in a game and you're on my team I have to play harder to help my team succeed than I would with someone else on my team.

No, here's the thing. In that scenario you might have to play harder to help your team succeed than you would if another person in your demographic were on your team.

Look, I've got nothing against the elite players. Actually I envy them (you) to some extent, and I certainly would rather have them on my team than the opponents'. I'm just not interested in committing to the extent I would need, to reach that level. Heck, at my age, it's far more likely that, having lost more than a step where my gaming skills are concerned, I may not even be capable of getting there. I'm ok with that, as are the majority of the player base, whatever their own reasons may be.

I've met a lot of highly skilled gamers over the years. My favorites have been those who understand that "try-hards" can be good for both the game and the community. They all knew how to make lemonade, when all they had were lemons, without lamenting the lack of anything "better". You see, no matter how good a player you may be, there's more you could be doing to make sure you're picked first in gym class.

[Starwulfe]

Age isn't an excuse. I know quite a few, several in KCom and other good units that have players that are of a *cough* 'high level'.
MWO is just as much brains as dexterity.
No doubt twitch and fine precision skills help at times, but are not required to win matches.
But MWO is not a twitch game by any stretch.

[MischiefSC]

Variant1, on 05 October 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

how so? im saying the game should be played for fun win or lose. the experience in question not the result. obviously teams goal is to destroy enemy mechs or complete secondary objective. The problem here is expecting high level play in a mode that pairs randoms together. thats like expecting the dice to always land on the same number. Thing im trying to say is to have fun in pugs by not stressing, if you get high kills good on you your a good player but its arbitrary to expect that randoms are always going to be the same skill level. its a fact that most players that play quick play are more casual than high level comp players, jus sayin be more kind to those potatos otherwise youll end up starving when they go away . if you did your part with lots of dmg and kills why stress if your team lost?

Also it against coc to talk about coc jus sayin

Except playing well, making good decisions and teamwork isn't stressing or "at all costs".

We all play QP for fun. That's the point - however the game is a team bases game. Is your argument that wandering off alone, getting ganked and dying with ~100 damage or less "fun"? Because those players generally disconnect or rage. They don't seem like they're having fun. So the fun matches you've had, that's the ones where you hid and let your team get wiped out and then got smashed by 8benemies all at once?

Those fun, close games are the ones where your team and the other team all put in a bare minimum effort. If the other players are flat out better, making good decisions in the mechbay and the match and playing to their team they're playing for fun and having fun. They're just doing it better and having fun while they do.

When you out-play the other team, out shoot or out position, don't you deserve your wins? Why don't they? Because their fun includes putting more effort or making better decisions in and out of the mechlab as whatever arbitrary cutoff you've got on a "virtuous" amount of effort?

Why should you get the same rewards and success as someone who's playing better than you? If you want their level of success then put in their level of effort. I do not believe you that you can only have fun when other people are carrying you or you're doing things to sabotage your teams success.

[MischiefSC]

Geek Verve, on 06 October 2018 - 08:40 AM, said:

No, here's the thing. In that scenario you might have to play harder to help your team succeed than you would if another person in your demographic were on your team.

Look, I've got nothing against the elite players. Actually I envy them (you) to some extent, and I certainly would rather have them on my team than the opponents'. I'm just not interested in committing to the extent I would need, to reach that level. Heck, at my age, it's far more likely that, having lost more than a step where my gaming skills are concerned, I may not even be capable of getting there. I'm ok with that, as are the majority of the player base, whatever their own reasons may be.

I've met a lot of highly skilled gamers over the years. My favorites have been those who understand that "try-hards" can be good for both the game and the community. They all knew how to make lemonade, when all they had were lemons, without lamenting the lack of anything "better". You see, no matter how good a player you may be, there's more you could be doing to make sure you're picked first in gym class.

I'm no elite player. I work in analytics and employee behavioral analysis and I know what success looks like but I don't put in anything near the time and effort required to build those habits.

There aren't really any tryhards in MWO anymore. The top tier players are largely absent. When they do play it's all funsies. The effort involved is minuscule. I'm not saying everyone needs to bring Deathstrikes and master range trading. I'm saying try to stick together, don't wander off, try to make smart decisions like there's a difference between flanking, kiting, chasing and running away. Running always almost always loses, kiting only works when your whole team is set for range and flanking only works on an exposed flank.

I'm not saying everyone needs to tryhard. Just lear some absolute basics about not being incompetent at the game.

[Variant1]

MischiefSC, on 06 October 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

We all play QP for fun. That's the point - however the game is a team bases game. Is your argument that wandering off alone, getting ganked and dying with ~100 damage or less "fun"? Because those players generally disconnect or rage. They don't seem like they're having fun. So the fun matches you've had, that's the ones where you hid and let your team get wiped out and then got smashed by 8benemies all at once?

heck no im with you on the whole team sticking together. ironicly some forum goers dont like it when teams stick together calling them "deathballs" or "deathblobs". teams should stick together for sure and tell each other if someone is shooting their back or if they are moving positions. as for damage sometimes players get unlucky especialy lights its situational.

Quote

Those fun, close games are the ones where your team and the other team all put in a bare minimum effort. If the other players are flat out better, making good decisions in the mechbay and the match and playing to their team they're playing for fun and having fun. They're just doing it better and having fun while they do.

Wouldnt the same logic apply to stomps then? one team put in effort while the other team didint? so if its a close game wouldn't that mean both teams gave it their all?

Quote

When you out-play the other team, out shoot or out position, don't you deserve your wins? Why don't they? Because their fun includes putting more effort or making better decisions in and out of the mechlab as whatever arbitrary cutoff you've got on a "virtuous" amount of effort?

yes but at the same time its kind of a stretch going up against lots of players, it is possible to 1v12 but it very rare.

Quote

Why should you get the same rewards and success as someone who's playing better than you? If you want their level of success then put in their level of effort. I do not believe you that you can only have fun when other people are carrying you or you're doing things to sabotage your teams success.

I aint sayin that and neither does the game rewards. rewards should be given out to the ones taht contribute the most, which is usualy high match score and dmg stats. again this comes down to qp, qp isnt the same as competitive

[MischiefSC]

Variant1, on 06 October 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

heck no im with you on the whole team sticking together. ironicly some forum goers dont like it when teams stick together calling them "deathballs" or "deathblobs". teams should stick together for sure and tell each other if someone is shooting their back or if they are moving positions. as for damage sometimes players get unlucky especialy lights its situational.

Wouldnt the same logic apply to stomps then? one team put in effort while the other team didint? so if its a close game wouldn't that mean both teams gave it their all?

yes but at the same time its kind of a stretch going up against lots of players, it is possible to 1v12 but it very rare.

I aint sayin that and neither does the game rewards. rewards should be given out to the ones taht contribute the most, which is usualy high match score and dmg stats. again this comes down to qp, qp isnt the same as competitive

Stomps are inevitable in 12 v 12. They happen in top tier comp games and pug games and whatever. If one team positions poorly and the other team leverages that you'll get a steamroll. Concentration of firepower cascades as total number of mechs in a given firing lane gets lopsided.

Stomps are not 'bad games'. They are inevitable in team v team. Larger each team, more potential firepower imbalance in a single lane the more likely an advantage will snowball in to a roll. A match can be incredibly close with everyone on both teams 1 touch from death and still end 12 - 1.

High match score IMO isn't always the biggest contributor, LRMs for example farm a lot of damage but it's mostly ineffective. Every match is competitive though. Its player vs player. It is *nothing* like comp matches. Nothing at all even a little. Every comp tier player is playing casual funsies in QP. If they want to farm cbills and level mechs they play FW or maybe group queue.

Everyone in QP is playing for funsies. The team beating you is playing for funsies. However if people looked at why they lost and tried to learn from their mistakes we would still all be having funsies but there would be less "same stupid cowardly mistakes" every match.

[BumbaCLot]

Variant1, on 05 October 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

Except its not, every game is about playing for fun and not for winning. Its only in competitive is when you play to win aginst other pro comp teams. its when players complain in puglandia that pugs are playing like pugs. Not everyone is going to be boring and just google the most min max cheese build that milks every drop of the min maxing "skill" tree in order to get the most ct deleting alpha. most players simply build the mech they want (albeit soemtimes even i admit there are some questionable build) but for the most part they are functional just not meta tryhard levels of functional. Since the moajority of QP players are the non min maxing crowd its in the best interest of pro players to not tell them how to play, like chillax and have fun, theres no need for this "equip 100 alpha ct deleting" in match with randoms, just chilax shoot some mechs. only do that l33t comp stuff against other premades.

Thats because i play for fun, if i wanted to i could equip some mechs with the most cheese min max build that cores mechs out quick with min maxing nodes to boot with only 2 weapon groups, but that wouldnt be fun, it wouldnt be my mech, it would just be another cookie cutter mech designed to crunch the most numbers in order to be the optimized "you can only win with this mech build" mech. That wouldnt be fun for me, and most certainly isint fun for most of the players. I recomend you try out a build that isint part of the main mech builds, build to your tastes, try to get more than 2 weapons groups if it doesnt work out after a few matches thats fine you can keep playing with the your default build its fine. Just try to understand not everyone is going to play with optimized build going for quick kills, after all the games mechlab is designed for people to build their own loadout doesnt necessarily mean it has to be the top tier build.

If your WLR is under 1 you are making the game not fun for 11 others. Simple as that. If you aren't at least trying to win you are basically griefing your own team. I play like garbage but I try to at least damage the other team to the best of my ability. I just am impatient and walk into firing lines way too much.

[BumbaCLot]

Variant1, on 05 October 2018 - 04:12 PM, said:

welp looks like ive become a forum warrior

What's that old saying, if you can't do, post?

[MischiefSC]

I want to be clear -

It's okay to struggle at winning. Nobody in MWO sprung fully formed from the forehead of Aleksander Kerensky rolling a 4.0 w/l.

However when someone is losing consistently and refuses to take steps to improve then they're breaking the social contract of a team based game. They're not participating in a game of MWO, they are inflicting themselves on 11 people to try and carry their dead weight through a match.

It's important to be absolutely clear that there is no fault to winning. There is no fault in losing but learning and improving. The only fault and blame lies in failing and refusing to learn and improve. Trying to change the game to make whatever you're doing to fail suddenly win more (which would never happen, the people winning now would just adapt and win then too) is also at fault.

This game is a team of 12 vs a team of 12. That's the game. Not playing that way loses to those who do, the same way staying at 500m with flamers loses to staying at 500m with gauss+erml. It's not bold or rebellious it's just stupid.