226 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Bombast, on 25 September 2018 - 05:04 PM, said:

Honestly, I'm not sure someone is qualified to command until they're better than 99.84% of the population.

How many of the great commanders in history were front-line fighters?

[SFC174]

Mystere, on 25 September 2018 - 09:08 PM, said:

How many of the great commanders in history were front-line fighters?

The more appropriate question might be how many led from the front?

I've read that Alexander the Great was a front line leader. I've read that George Patton liked to get up close and personal too.

But this is not grand battles with entire divisions, brigades and armies. This is small unit action. Platoon sized. As such, there is no room for a lieutenant or captain that doesn't fight with his soldiers and carry his weight in combat while also issuing orders.

A general commanding an army of 1000s or tens of 1000s can add virtually nothing in close combat at the front (except morale for his troops, unless he falls to the enemy....). If 1 of 12 players stays back or dies early so he can issue orders instead of dealing damage...….you get the picture.

[Sjorpha]

Taking lead takes practice just like playing, so IMO the sooner players start working on their communication and leadership skills the better. So what if it takes some time for them to become good at calling, it should still be encouraged.

[Shifty McSwift]

SFC174, on 25 September 2018 - 09:56 PM, said:

The more appropriate question might be how many led from the front?

I've read that Alexander the Great was a front line leader. I've read that George Patton liked to get up close and personal too.

But this is not grand battles with entire divisions, brigades and armies. This is small unit action. Platoon sized. As such, there is no room for a lieutenant or captain that doesn't fight with his soldiers and carry his weight in combat while also issuing orders.

A general commanding an army of 1000s or tens of 1000s can add virtually nothing in close combat at the front (except morale for his troops, unless he falls to the enemy....). If 1 of 12 players stays back or dies early so he can issue orders instead of dealing damage...….you get the picture.

Or that dude who lead his armies through several sieges, breached lines on horseback several times and didn't even lose his horse until like the 9th of those battles, can't remember the damn name... Some dude predating Alexander anyway (I know Alexander loved his horse and gave it a soldiers burial etc, but it was someone else), which makes it understandable to go "forgotten" versus Alexander, considering his massive and bloody accomplishments and young age.

When a dude is so badass even his horse gets mad respect, rather than when a dude is so revered even the horse he rides becomes elevated and revered (divine right ******** versus trial by fire and success)

[Armored Yokai]

Only time commanding team is interesting is when there are strats like setting up an ambush

[JC Daxion]

UnofficialOperator, on 25 September 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

If you are in the bottom 20% of the players.

Its frequently just wrong.

Right,, because calling a target in the open is so hard.. Or letting people know they are flanking, or pushing or a strike is right on your head.. Heck just saying everyone go tunnel on crimson, or don't take the pass, or take the top on HPG when you have 3 50 KPH mechs. This game is not rocket science, and teamwork typically wins the day..

Like when someone runs right into a strike.. because VOIP OFF is so smart and didn't hear the caller say incoming strike D4.. then rage quit right after ranting about how horrible the team is.


Stats and leader boards are only part of how good a player is.. the other part is how often do you actually play top mechs, or try hard all month? Level mechs, try something outside the box for kicks for 20 matches and you only played 50-60 matches that month it is very easy to tank your stats if you don't play 500+ all the time.

I'm not a top player for sure, but the few months i actually tried all month i did pretty well, the rest of the time i average in about the top 1/3 of players.

Most of the time i don't bother with the whole command idea.. but come on.. calling a friggin target is something people should be doing..

then again mindless nascar is about all most people want anyway, so what ever..

Novakaine, on 25 September 2018 - 07:23 PM, said:

I would be remiss if denied people the smooth silky tones of my voice.

Hell ya.. I love it when i end up in a drop with you, even the losses are fun!

Edited by JC Daxion, 25 September 2018 - 10:49 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Mystere, on 25 September 2018 - 09:08 PM, said:

How many of the great commanders in history were front-line fighters?

Joan of Arc

[Shifty McSwift]

Yes I find people who counter commands or just ignore them etc to be far less useful than people who die trying to follow a command. In fact I respect people far more if they go above and beyond, because this isn't real life, you won't die to a bad command you will just lose a game and prove yourself able to follow commands, and possibly have an amazing fight whether you won or lost.

So obsessed with wins that you forget how much fun can be had losing if it was for a cause?

This is why I left many groups in other games. Too many people thinking they are infallible and raging when they lost, no matter how well everyone worked together etc, the "you have been destroyed" screen must really cut them up to see. :\

[JC Daxion]

@swifty
I gotta agree, For me, losses are typically a lot more fun if people even attempt to work together.. Call me crazy but isn't that why you are playing a team game?

besides a Messed up weird strat, and go down fighting almost pulling out a win is often more fun than a Roll. Sure, we can all get cranky from time to time, but more often than not it's because people don't even attempt to try to work together, not because someone is bad.


If you don't wanna work together, Solaris is ++++>>> way

Edited by JC Daxion, 25 September 2018 - 11:04 PM.

[Horseman]

Dragonporn, on 25 September 2018 - 06:16 PM, said:

When either team pushed the top, nobody stays there for more than few seconds, because every time they do, they get killed (or turned into sticks) very quickly by backshots, since, again, in QP there's no possibility to coordinate team to cover each others' flanks. People just aimlessly climb up, pick random targets, don't consider teammates and personal position. So in 100% of cases, first team who gets to the top, drops down on opposite side, and leaves slower mechs behind, to be munched on by faster ones. So it always comes down to who nascars into who sooner. Crap like that doesn't happen in the basement, but yeah, talking everyone going there and, most importantly, staying in one place is quite a feat on its own.

This happens if you push too impatiently. First you deny the enemy the top and force them off using your firepower from the ramps. Then you take the top.

Dago Red, on 25 September 2018 - 07:18 PM, said:

I am concerned that with this community it is 100% impossible to tell if this statement is some kind of satire or deadly serious.

87% of all statistics are bogus.

JC Daxion, on 25 September 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

Right,, because calling a target in the open is so hard.. Or letting people know they are flanking, or pushing or a strike is right on your head.. Heck just saying everyone go tunnel on crimson, or don't take the pass, or take the top on HPG when you have 3 50 KPH mechs. This game is not rocket science, and teamwork typically wins the day..

Knowing which target to prioritize out of several takes some knowledge. Some wannabe DCs prioritize low-skill opponents with kitchen sink builds based on chassis alone, while there's a smaller meta build almost as close that presents the greater threat.

JC Daxion, on 25 September 2018 - 10:50 PM, said:

Joan of Arc

Witchcraft, mutation and heresy.

Edited by Horseman, 25 September 2018 - 11:05 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Horseman, on 25 September 2018 - 11:02 PM, said:

This happens if you push too impatiently. First you deny the enemy the top and force them off using your firepower from the ramps. Then you take the top.87% of all statistics are bogus.Knowing which target to prioritize out of several takes some knowledge. Some wannabe DCs prioritize low-skill opponents with kitchen sink builds based on chassis alone, while there's a smaller meta build almost as close that presents the greater threat.

That is very true.. But we are talking Pug's here, and if there are 5 mechs around a corner, and you have 8.. if you are focusing even on a weaker target you are far better off then everyone shooting at someone different.

[Shifty McSwift]

JC Daxion, on 25 September 2018 - 11:08 PM, said:

That is very true.. But we are talking Pug's here, and if there are 2 mechs around a corner, and you have 11.. your 11 will stop to peep or flee for a backstab to conserve paint rather than just crush them easily.

FTFY ;D

[Wil McCullough]

Basement rushing in hpg only works when some guys in the opposing team get the "bright idea" of using it as a shortcut to flank. Then you roll those guys and force the remainding enemies to push you because it's their only chance of winning. It can lead to wins in qp because that's where people can't coordinate a push to save their lives.

That being said, pushing top wins more games. You push top and get it, you get superior positioning and cover that you can use to tear your opponents a new *******. Dislodging a team that's holding the "balcony" is possible by using the ramps at the sides to "peek-poke" and win trades, but you seldom see a team capable of that in qp too.

Taking top is the strategy with the highest reward and lowest risk. Worst case scenario, you just end up with a brawl and that's like a 50-50 thing.

Edited by Wil McCullough, 25 September 2018 - 11:11 PM.

[Dago Red]

SFC174, on 25 September 2018 - 09:56 PM, said:

The more appropriate question might be how many led from the front?

I've read that Alexander the Great was a front line leader. I've read that George Patton liked to get up close and personal too.

But this is not grand battles with entire divisions, brigades and armies. This is small unit action. Platoon sized. As such, there is no room for a lieutenant or captain that doesn't fight with his soldiers and carry his weight in combat while also issuing orders.

A general commanding an army of 1000s or tens of 1000s can add virtually nothing in close combat at the front (except morale for his troops, unless he falls to the enemy....). If 1 of 12 players stays back or dies early so he can issue orders instead of dealing damage...….you get the picture.

Yes but does that Captain have to be one of the best combatants on the field in order to understand how to effectively organize their own people?

[mad kat]

I have to say that in a lot of matches i've been in when someone loud (from a certain continent) pipes up and starts shouting at people to do things the match is lost before its begun.

I'm not saying don't do it I've been in several matches with the infamous Hades MW and his alt account and initially i muted him (for being a bit OTT and sometimes his frustration is plain to hear) but the more i dropped with him the more i noticed successful matches.

So yes i'll gladly listen to orders and if you can you should try it yourself but the biggest flaw people make is as soon as the shooting starts people go quiet. You need to keep calling out targets throughout.

[Shifty McSwift]

mad kat, on 25 September 2018 - 11:30 PM, said:

I have to say that in a lot of matches i've been in when someone loud (from a certain continent) pipes up and starts shouting at people to do things the match is lost before its begun.

I'm not saying don't do it I've been in several matches with the infamous Hades MW and his alt account and initially i muted him (for being a bit OTT and sometimes his frustration is plain to hear) but the more i dropped with him the more i noticed successful matches.

So yes i'll gladly listen to orders and if you can you should try it yourself but the biggest flaw people make is as soon as the shooting starts people go quiet. You need to keep calling out targets throughout.

Sure, and the notion of "countering a command" isnt a big deal if its like someone calling "wanna do basement?" and someone else saying no come top, before the battle even starts etc, you have to be willing to listen to reason etc, but if you are in the **** and feel you need to make a call or point something out etc, or if someone is already committed it becomes a lot more crucial to not be nitpicky while mechs are exploding.

Circumstantial stuff for sure, it just hurts me to see some of the shameful displays of cowardism that you do in QP, and a lot of the time it is clearly inspired by a desire to conserve stats.

[Davegt27]

UnofficialOperator, on 25 September 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

If you are in the bottom 20% of the players.

Its frequently just wrong.

one thing you could do is ask PGI to change the color of players names in pre match drop screen of the top 20% of players so they could be considered command worthy

then again do you think top 20% would be good enough why not top 10% or even 5%

if you don't do something like that (a ranking system) you would have to constantly
call out "don't listen to that guy until I check the Jarl list"

another thing you could do is not listen to anyone just yolo solo
bottom line its your Mech do what you want you are in no obligation to follow any recommendation/commands/observations

IMHO

Edited by Davegt27, 26 September 2018 - 12:53 AM.

[UnofficialOperator]

Davegt27, on 26 September 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

then again do you think top 20% would be good enough why not top 10% or even 5%

Gameplay here is so bad, you should probably just listen to the top 5%

Davegt27, on 26 September 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

if you don't do something like that (a ranking system) you would have to constantly
call out "don't listen to that guy until I check the Jarl list"

That's why this is a PSA imploring those bad players to please stfu and not lead.

Games are better most times even without a lead.

[UnofficialOperator]

mad kat, on 25 September 2018 - 11:30 PM, said:

I'm not saying don't do it I've been in several matches with the infamous Hades MW and his alt account and initially i muted him (for being a bit OTT and sometimes his frustration is plain to hear) but the more i dropped with him the more i noticed successful matches.

Hades MW is one of the few drop callers that I trust. I can't think of any other tbh. Maybe the Duncan Fisher guy too.

And even if you drop with the real good pilots, I have never heard them call a strategy ever. The most I've heard is to call out focus fires.

[UnofficialOperator]

Mystere, on 25 September 2018 - 09:08 PM, said:

How many of the great commanders in history were front-line fighters?

I think you seem to conflate bad stats to hiding at the back as a good commander and good stats with being a front line fighter and being a bad lead. This is a game and the two are not mutually exclusive. You can be a good leader from the front and have great stats. MWO is more of a small squad play rather than battalion level and at this level, you lead from the front.

Again this is a game. Not history.