95 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 October 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

Well...they quirked for that once, they can do it again.

They can, but likely won't.

It's a coin toss, and I'm not much of a gambler...

[Luminis]

process, on 17 October 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

There are other weapon systems that are far more efficient in terms of DPS, but as long as the heat capacity allows for it, laser vomit will continue to provide the most consistent way to deliver high pinpoint damage from a safe distance. High dissipation means it can happen more frequently.

There are, obviously, weapons that still offer higher sustained damage and I'm not saying Laser Vomit is gonna beat them in a slug fest. Nonetheless, you're giving up a significant amount of up front damage for a decreased amount of DPS gain

Khobai, on 17 October 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

I dunno. the CHLL is flaming garbage now. 16 damage with the same heat and beam duration as when it was 18 damage. Theres no reason to use it now IMO.

It doesn't depend on the HLL.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 17 October 2018 - 06:58 PM, said:

They can, but likely won't.

It's a coin toss, and I'm not much of a gambler...

You don't have that choice to not gamble on quirks, because the MWO mechanics do not have enough controls. Quirk to buff underperformers or nerf overperformers; choose.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 17 October 2018 - 08:11 PM.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 17 October 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

Clan DHS cannot go below 2.0 because that completely ***** a lot of mechs that lack the tonnage to boat Dubs.

wrong.

clan external DHS can absolutely go below 2.0, in fact they used to be 1.5

the internal ones should stay at 2.0 though. But the external ones can go below 2.0 for sure.

they had the right idea with the old system. there was absolutely NO reason to make all CDHS 2.2

all they did by improving dissipation on CDHS was effectively undo the other clan nerfs and make them largely meaningless. slightly decreasing the heatcap and damage meant nothing once they also massively increased dissipation. it ended up being an overall buff to clans.

Luminis, on 17 October 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

It doesn't depend on the HLL.

clan laser vomit cant reach the same size max alphas without CHLL.

if you have to use LPL/ERLL instead of CHLL youre doing smaller max alphas.

so the max alpha of laser vomit has been reduced.

and while the higher dissipation is an overall buff for clans, I still feel laser vomit is somewhat weaker than before.

Edited by Khobai, 17 October 2018 - 08:26 PM.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 October 2018 - 08:11 PM, said:

You don't have that choice to not gamble on quirks, because the MWO mechanics do not have enough controls. Quirk to buff underperformers or nerf overperformers; choose.

The gamble is hoping for PGI to ever help underperformers.

Khobai, on 17 October 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

wrong.

clan external DHS can absolutely go below 2.0, in fact they used to be 1.4

the internal ones would stay at 2.0

they had the right idea with the old system. there was absolutely NO reason to make all CDHS 2.2

all they did by improving dissipation on CDHS was undo the other clan nerfs and make them largely meaningless.

I was assuming you meant 1.7 or 1.8 both internal and external because this patch made both share the same values and you didn't specify it. Getting to keep the first 10 Dubs as TruDubs changes the situation...

Edited by FupDup, 17 October 2018 - 08:19 PM.

[Vxheous]

FupDup, on 17 October 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

The gamble is hoping for PGI to ever help underperformers.


I was assuming you meant 1.7 or 1.8 both internal and external because this patch made both share the same values and you didn't specify it. Getting to keep the first 10 Dubs as TruDubs changes the situation...

There's probably a way for PGI to do it, but chances are it'll create more spaghetti code. The system already knows to differentiate first 10 heatsinks right now as +2.0 heatcap/0.22 dissipation, with the rest as +0.5/0.22. No reason they can't have first 10 heatsinks as +2.0/0.2, and rest +0.5/0.18 or some other number.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 17 October 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

I was assuming you meant 1.7 or 1.8 both internal and external because this patch made both share the same values and you didn't specify it. Getting to keep the first 10 Dubs as TruDubs changes the situation...

I meant they should just go back to the old system of 2.0 internals and 1.5 externals.

Which averages out CDHS at around 1.7/1.8

There was nothing wrong with that. Having CDHS be 2.0/1.5 and having all ISDHS be 2.2 would actually be fairly balanced.

Because a clan mech with 24 DHS would have (10 * 2) + (14*1.5) = 41 dissipation

While an IS mech with 18 DHS would have 18 * 2.2 = 39.6 dissipation

Pretty close to equal.

[Dragonporn]

The situation is so strange post last patch. At first I didn't really notice any significant difference. Yeah, heat dissipates a bit faster and I can shoot more frequently, so what? Huge tilt from heavy alpha to DPS, resulted in jarring damage on things that definitely didn't supposed to perform so good, that's what... From like ~10 matches tonight, I noticed that end match damage numbers going nuts. People score over 800 in Mediums (me included) pretty consistently. My Wubz Crab became a freaking monster, this think is unstopable, among several other builds that were strong previously, but now they are getting ridiculous!

I don't know what PGI was intending to do, but they definitely broke something, hard. I don't mind changes much (never do for some reason), but I'm pretty sure it may turn off some people from this game. Particular builds getting to dominating to pass on, and if you don't enjoy them and prefer different ones, tough luck...

Personally I'm not happy with even more lowered TTK. I can easily live with it, but I'd be more happy if it was other way around. On some other changes in patch besides heat, I actually like them.

[Y E O N N E]

The meta didn't shift from alpha to DPS, it made alpha into DPS. Same alphas, more DPS with those alphas.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 17 October 2018 - 09:20 PM.

[Dragonporn]

I meant playstyle-wise in general, but yes.

[Y E O N N E]

I think it's an important distinction to note, because if alphas had been reduced, but DPS had gone up, it would be a little different. You've got Clan Assault alphas blowing whole side torsos from 500 meters in one shot and then repeating the process 6 seconds later ad infinitum without even popping a coolshot. So while the DPS figure is bigger, it doesn't necessarily look that aggressive until you realize that DPS is an average, and the discrete applications mean that dividing health by DPS doesn't really give you the raw TTK because the discrete applications are massive. It's shorter than it would be if it were so many nibbles.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 17 October 2018 - 09:36 PM.

[Ghogiel]

DPS has been the main meta and main factor in ttk for a year or more now, with laser vomit being a very peripheral to even niche meta. All PGI were trying to do here was bring laser vomit into the main meta more and make it less distingishable it from the dps meta.

Edited by Ghogiel, 18 October 2018 - 12:29 AM.

[Tiewolf]

This patch feels like a step in the right direction. Yes the pure laser alphas got nerfed a tiny bit for more dps. But now the laserboats have to expose themself more often to do the same damage. So the risk of getting more return fire for damage increases. Lets see how and if this idea works out in the big picture.

The only problem I have with this patch is that the Clan Gauss+Laservomit is even better now and brawling is hindered by the lack of good close range weapons and the lack of mobility to absorb the increased number of alphas you have to eat while fighting at close range! But this is fixable if pgi wants it.

[Weeny Machine]

Khobai, on 17 October 2018 - 06:39 PM, said:

PGI will probably end up walking back the CDHS dissipation buffs somewhat. They way overbuffed CDHS dissipation and it ended up cancelling out a lot of the intended nerfs. After walking them back, CDHS will likely end up somewhere in between .22 and .15 (probably around .17 or .18)

Im pretty sure thats whats gonna end up happening. I hope they leave ISDHS alone at .22 though. ISDHS should have higher dissipation than CDHS because they take up more crit slots.

I don't think the dissipation was "overbuffed", in fact I like it. The problem is another one. The heatscale still allows huge alphas like before, as was said before. If you lower the heatscale a tad the system would be much better

Khobai, on 17 October 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

wrong.

clan external DHS can absolutely go below 2.0, in fact they used to be 1.5

the internal ones should stay at 2.0 though. But the external ones can go below 2.0 for sure.

they had the right idea with the old system. there was absolutely NO reason to make all CDHS 2.2

all they did by improving dissipation on CDHS was effectively undo the other clan nerfs and make them largely meaningless. slightly decreasing the heatcap and damage meant nothing once they also massively increased dissipation. it ended up being an overall buff to clans.



clan laser vomit cant reach the same size max alphas without CHLL.

if you have to use LPL/ERLL instead of CHLL youre doing smaller max alphas.

so the max alpha of laser vomit has been reduced.

and while the higher dissipation is an overall buff for clans, I still feel laser vomit is somewhat weaker than before.

And again you punish mechs (light mechs of course) which have a lower engine rating and do not carry 10 heatsinks "by default"

Edited by Bush Hopper, 18 October 2018 - 03:48 AM.

[Khobai]

Bush Hopper, on 18 October 2018 - 03:46 AM, said:

I don't think the dissipation was "overbuffed", in fact I like it. The problem is another one. The heatscale still allows huge alphas like before, as was said before. If you lower the heatscale a tad the system would be much better

dissipation was definitely overbuffed for clans

ISDHS should be better than CDHS since ISDHS cost more crit slots than CDHS. thats balance 101.

the lower heat cap wouldve worked fine as a nerf for clans if they didnt also buff clan dissipation so much that it defeated the purpose of lowering the heat cap.

Edited by Khobai, 18 October 2018 - 10:58 PM.

[Shadowomega1]

I called it when they kept allowing for Heat Capacity above 30 during the private test servers. These super vomit builds will be fun for awhile till people grow tired of dying in few seconds. As for dissipation of 0.2 per DHS is where it should have been set for, however the 0.22 dissipation extra 0.02 is just barely noticable. As for why I said 0.2 is where it should have been both Table Top. If you don't believe me on table top use the Warhawk data sheet which has 20 DHS and cools 40 points a turn and 1 turn is 10 seconds; how much heat does the mech dissipate per second per DHS.

[lazorbeamz]

6 erml 2hll did 78 damage and it does 71 nowdays i think so there is that. A 9% decrease. This alpha produces ~90-95% heat. You have to wait until you fire the second time. I think that is the biggest diffirence because you used to be able to deal two alphas before. You get better dps in the long run but you are forced to space out your first two alphas. And each of these used to deal more damage, too.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 22 October 2018 - 05:19 PM.

[lazorbeamz]

process, on 17 October 2018 - 06:06 AM, said:

PGI went too far with both dissipation and capacity. I didn't get a chance to play PTS 2.1, but I felt that PTS 2.0 was a good balance between the two variables. Even fully skilled, you could just barely alpha 2 HLL 4 cERML on a cold map.

The theoretical maximum heat capacity should really be between 40 and 50, inclusive of skills. Anything north of 50 enables and improves many of the builds, with the exception of Gauss combos, that this patch was supposed to tone down.

The heat cap should allow safety when alphaing things like 2 HLL and 6erml. This setup is widely available on many clan mechs and putting the cap below this is unfair because it will just overly restrict said clan mechs and their famous energy boating will be gone. Which is just bad because it means flavor lost. Whats the point in giving them 9 energy points if you can only use 6 at a time.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 22 October 2018 - 05:16 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

lazorbeamz, on 22 October 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

The heat cap should allow safety when alphaing things like 2 HLL and 6erml. This setup is widely available on many clan mechs and putting the cap below this is unfair because it will just overly restrict said clan mechs and their famous energy boating will be gone. Which is just bad because it means flavor lost. Whats the point in giving them 9 energy points if you can only use 6 at a time.

What's the point of giving piranha 15 energy hardpoints if it cant ever fire 15 lasers at the same time? What's the point of large pulse if you have heavy larges as the only real choice? What's the point of allowing players to choose 0 armor?

Facetious reasoning is facetious.

[lazorbeamz]

Shifty McSwift, on 22 October 2018 - 05:27 PM, said:

What's the point of giving piranha 15 energy hardpoints if it cant ever fire 15 lasers at the same time? What's the point of large pulse if you have heavy larges as the only real choice? What's the point of allowing players to choose 0 armor?

Facetious reasoning is facetious.

Your example is too extreme. Literally 8-9 laser clan mechs are one of the main highlights of this game. Something that makes one of the most important parts of the gameplay and makes people come back and play MWO. Which i cant say about 15 laser light mechs. This is a weak argument.

Besides you could probably do something like that with micro lasers lol.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 22 October 2018 - 05:33 PM.