95 replies to this topic

[Shifty McSwift]

lazorbeamz, on 22 October 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

You are just being completely dishonest and unfair when you are trying to compare 2+6 meta clan vomit and 15 laser light mechs. Or 0 armor for that matter lols.

Also I like how you chose to ignore the HLL vs LPL comparison I brought up, and pretend like ERLLs don't exist lol. Or should I say lols, is that what the kids are doing now?

[Rafe Yomin]

Throe, on 25 October 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

This isn't fair. You're replying to someone who is saying the consequences were both obvious and unintended, which is true and correct. Your accusation that the devs are openly intent to destroy the game is wrong. This is a prime example of Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice what can be better explained by ignorance or stupidity. In this case, specifically cognitive dissonance, but they're similar concepts. Either way it isn't malice.

I'm basing this on the graphs that were released with the changes. They're obviously still balancing via spreadsheet, which is known to have been a problem for some time now, and they just refuse to acknowledge it.

They have years of examples where they say they want to do x, then do something which is the exact opposite. Have you heard from any dev now, stating that it's not what they wanted, and they'll revert the changes or look into other changes. They have a history of doing the exact thing they are doing now. If you're still falling for that after years of them doing it ...

If they'd listen to their community, or even use basic math, or even use an excel file, or even just take out a mech, and use their eyes and a stopwatch, they would clearly have seen the consequences: they took nothing off the actual alpha's used, and improved the cooldown by massively increasing heat dissipation making dps a lot higher. They actually had PTS values which lowered the boogyman 92 point alpha so it couldn't actually shoot anymore. They then made the heat cap higher again because it was "restrictive".

I'm not saying it's malice btw, or they want to destroy the game, just saying that what they say isn't what they mean. They are clearly lying, have been for years and have a completely different direction they want to take the game in (although by now i do actually believe that they just want to shut down the servers because it just costs them).

[lazorbeamz]

Actually i got new data about 2HLL and 6cerml.

You need full heat containment nodes and a bunch of heat gen nodes if you want to be able to alpha it on some of the hottest maps. Otherwise you will take 100% overheat from 1 alpha and occasionnaly take 3-4 % internal damage(rubellite and terma). With skills you are going to alpha for ~98% heat when stationary and still 100% on the move LOL.

So with this mech you wont have any mobility skills pretty much. You are pretty much bound to max operations and have the majority of firepower skills. So it turns out the devs actually did their math with 2+6 laser vomit and it has some soft restrictions right now.

The funny part is that Deathstrike is fine and has no skill node problems whatsoever.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 26 October 2018 - 04:53 AM.

[lazorbeamz]

Moldur, on 25 October 2018 - 09:56 PM, said:

It's a buff for everything but the hottest clan alphas I feel, My alpha warrior Cauldron Born of yore, 6xerml + 2xLPL almost shuts down and does less damage. It's only reduced by 6 damage, but still. I feel like damage is one of the only sacred lambs of MWO, but PGI has even gone as far as meddling with those ever since they needed a reason for heavy lasers to exists.

That's obviously a very fringe build. Your mid alpha IS builds are the sweet spot right now I think. Better heat, faster rate of fire, lower duration.

Honestly, I don't think the crusade against high alphas is justified. By high alphas, everyone means high alpha laser vomit builds, and they really mean high alpha clan laser vomit builds. They lost an ST instantly one time, or their light died, or it was the scape goat of their frustrating match. I'll tell you this. It's basically impossible to sling the same amount of damage as other solid builds unless the enemy just lets you. The prohibitive heat of each shot that you don't want to waste, and match time excludes the possibility normally. Besides targets that stand still, you're not really that great at anything. Its specialty is blowing STs on people that are standing still (or legs if you are a sadist). You also have incredibly long face time compared to everyone else. You're using a weapon (clan lasers) that PGI has practically relegated as an auxiliary/assist tool. Roll damage? Wasted shot. huge heat spike. Need to sit and cool-off, defenselessly.
Target close? Probably moving around. High duration and heat = really bad at close range.
Your mech is likely made of toothpicks and glue too or just has giant, easily identifiable torso segments (and no structure or armor quirks).
IS mech gets close = bad.
Fast mech = bad.
Mech with low face time that can return fire = very bad.

Most of the time, my giant clan laser builds (which have fallen out of favor for me) are putting out some mid range damage with their C-LPLs on targets of opportunity or chain firing some focus target while at 90% heat just to contribute damage for my teammates. Neither of which should be situations anywhere close to complaining about. No, the build is only OP when you're standing still in your brawler Griffin, oblivious, and someone blows your ST and XL in 1 go.

Whaaat. 71 laser alpha is still simply the best. Hitscan 450m easy aimed damage. Clan lasers auxiliary tool? Not when you have 8.

[Daurock]

lazorbeamz, on 26 October 2018 - 04:45 AM, said:

The funny part is that Deathstrike is fine and has no skill node problems whatsoever.

Indeed it is fine, and so is anything else that can take a Gauss. A whole slew of single Gauss builds also got deadlier with the new patch.
Therein lies the problem with attempting to use a heat cap to curb high alphas - the same one the devs/players found when testing PTS 2.0 and 2.1 -
GaussVomit, and many of the best Laser Vomit builds don't get touched at all with a 50, or even 40 cap, while a whole slew of other builds get nerfed pretty handily.

The roadmap post they made even says as much. The paragraph on PTS 2.0 and 2.1 in particular is very interesting if read carefully. It pretty clearly says that the heat change DIDN'T do what they had wanted in terms of curbing vomit. It also makes it pretty clear that despite that, it was a popular change. Taken together, it's reasonable to assume here that the devs didn't intend for the heat change to curb alphas at ALL. (Hell, the section in that post regarding the "Role of heat within MWO says so explicitly.) Instead, they did it because it was "Fun" for most players.

Why people continue to believe that the heat cap change was aimed at laser vomit, or that the devs did so with the intent to nerf vomit, amazes and disappoints me.

Edited by Daurock, 26 October 2018 - 05:38 AM.

[lazorbeamz]

Laser vomit got a good treatment this patch. But gauss is still there. I dont know if it needs a nerf or not. Maybe it does not because you simply cant gauss vomit with 50-65 ton mechs and you need at least 85.

[Daurock]

lazorbeamz, on 26 October 2018 - 05:44 AM, said:

Laser vomit got a good treatment this patch. But gauss is still there. I dont know if it needs a nerf or not. Maybe it does not because you simply cant gauss vomit with 50-65 ton mechs and you need at least 85.

Oh, you can do just fine with a 50 ton GaussVomit. It doesn't overtake LaserVomit until you run out of Steam with pure vomit, but it certainly can compete in the 50-65 ton range. It's one of the primary reasons that heat-capping doesn't work well for limiting alphas - So long as someone can fire 6 medium lasers, someone can tack on a gauss rifle or two onto it to create very high alphas. IS can actually do this too, but since the weapon is so much heavier for them, and the lasers so much less potent, the scaling is just peanuts compared to what clan can do.

I honestly think C-Gauss is Next in line for the nerf-bat, if they actually are planning on bringing down clan alphas closer to what IS does. It pretty much has to be, since it scales nearly as well as the lasers do, and can be readily placed into many/most pure vomits to make more GaussVomits with little to no loss in performance.

[C E Dwyer]

Luminis, on 17 October 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

Let me just add that I don't mind lower TTK in general. In my opinion, it punishes a lack of awareness and bad positioning, thus promoting better play. I also generally like the idea of increased dissipation and the resulting shift from alpha damage to DPS.

What concerns me is that having a Mech "archetype" that has alpha damage, DPS and a generous range profile. That archetype hinging on the ability to boat DHS, which one side is significantly better at than the other, is concerning as well (especially when PGI immediately started nerfing IS quirks without testing the impact the changes have on faction balance).

Call me a pessimist, but if my impression is correct, we'll be back to Clan Laser Vomit >>> all soon.

But it doesn't promote better play.

Lower TTK causes, spuds, and not so spud, that actually want to learn, to leave in frustration, because, they haven't time actually do a reasonable amount of damage.

That's why so many turn to lurms, because it gives the illusion of playing better, because they see high damage numbers, and feel they're making progression.

When in fact they're learning nothing.

[Y E O N N E]

C E Dwyer, on 26 October 2018 - 07:55 AM, said:

But it doesn't promote better play.

Lower TTK causes, spuds, and not so spud, that actually want to learn, to leave in frustration, because, they haven't time actually do a reasonable amount of damage.

As opposed to the complaints about "hackers" causing these same people to quit after long raw TTK mechanics cause their volleys to roll off of a good player's armor and deal ineffective damage?

Please.

[Stone Wall]

C E Dwyer, on 26 October 2018 - 07:55 AM, said:

But it doesn't promote better play.

Lower TTK causes, spuds, and not so spud, that actually want to learn, to leave in frustration, because, they haven't time actually do a reasonable amount of damage.

That's why so many turn to lurms, because it gives the illusion of playing better, because they see high damage numbers, and feel they're making progression.

When in fact they're learning nothing.

The best ways to learn in a Mech game have been neutered in this version of MechWarrior. I can speak from experience. To get better at piloting Mechs, you need 1) time in a Mech 2) to play against better pilots than you. The PSR matchup has low skill/low MWO experience pilots fighting against their own level. You don't learn from that other than how to cheese.

The second issue stopping people from learning is No Respawn. Having so little time in a Mech with only 1 spawn isn't helping the MWO community get better at piloting Mechs. No Respawn really helps the better players/teams.

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 October 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

As opposed to the complaints about "hackers" causing these same people to quit after long raw TTK mechanics cause their volleys to roll off of a good player's armor and deal ineffective damage?

Please.

I'm in favor of higher TTK in a general sense, but there's definitely a limit (and likely a healthy balance), and higher TTK is literally pointless when it can be almost completely bypassed with head and backshots.

[Rafe Yomin]

Shifty McSwift, on 26 October 2018 - 05:58 PM, said:

I'm in favor of higher TTK in a general sense, but there's definitely a limit (and likely a healthy balance), and higher TTK is literally pointless when it can be almost completely bypassed with head and backshots.

Which is generally a choice. Getting a headshot is very rare. On most mechs i've ran with 1 head armor or something like that, and i've been headshot maybe a couple of times. The time it killed me, is once. If you're moving, it's very hard to get a headshot. Even on a shut down mech i haven't seen many. Getting a 1 shot headshot kill is even more rare. The backshots can be mitigated a bit by actually putting some armor in your back. You won't need a lot more, but most people leave their back at something like 4-6 armor in an assault, and then complain about getting shot in the back. Same with those who lower their leg armor, and then complain that you're cheesy for going for their legs, after noticing a laser grazing it turned it darker than it should normally have.

Also, if it's achieved through actually balancing the weapons, the headshot will also have less power, and lead to less one shot headshots and less damage in the back too.

[Weeny Machine]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 October 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

As opposed to the complaints about "hackers" causing these same people to quit after long raw TTK mechanics cause their volleys to roll off of a good player's armor and deal ineffective damage?

Please.

Let me ask you a question. In which situation do you think a scrub feels better?

A. He jumps into a mech. Tries to control his mech. Peeks out gets barely a shot off, then gets shredded at once or even killed.


B. He jumps into a mech. Tries to control his mech. Peeks out gets barely a shot off, gets hit. Moves on. Fires a bit more. Takes hits. Fires some shots. Takes hits and dies. All while moving around with his mech.

[Lurm God]

Bush Hopper, on 27 October 2018 - 06:30 AM, said:

Let me ask you a question. In which situation do you think a scrub feels better?

A. He jumps into a mech. Tries to control his mech. Peeks out gets barely a shot off, then gets shredded at once or even killed.


B. He jumps into a mech. Tries to control his mech. Peeks out gets barely a shot off, gets hit. Moves on. Fires a bit more. Takes hits. Fires some shots. Takes hits and dies. All while moving around with his mech.

Warning possible wall of text that has no relevance to the title of this topic and is only in reference to your comment that has started me on a tirade. Probably would be too late but if MW5 does actually become a thing we could have a small window influx of new pilots that either can be retained or just immediately burn out after a month like battletechs majority player base.

How does TTK make any difference really? If they are bad and have no natural skill for the game they will get steamrolled regardless. The only difference is they will get pulverised and maybe escape 1 time and just hide frightened for the remainder until the rolling nascar finds them.

The issue to me starts with the entry to the game. There is a tutorial that is just not effective. There is no access to a real in game unit listing to try find active and appropriate units for a rookie player or hopeless mechdad. Majority of units that recruit new players are not really knowledgeable or are trying to pad unit numbers while they really are a dead unit who think they can rebuild.

Imagine how much different it would be if you entered the game for the first time and it asks, would you like to join the rookie unit? Have a mech school where a few good players if the chose to be available and patient like bowser, denair, jayz etc could vet in other trusted pilots to be available in a chat window for advice/tips/help/resources etc. Differentiate these players with a different colored name to help with identification and a title etc. Upgrade the UI or add in a discord link to a made discord run for this purpose.

I know it has been discussed before but as a bonus (probably way to hard to code) within that specific unit allow those top tier admins to run a 8 mech garage with skill tree inclusive of mechs that can be accessed by the new pilots so they can play up to date, skilled and simple mechs of each class / faction.

[Vxheous]

Lurm God, on 27 October 2018 - 07:37 AM, said:

Imagine how much different it would be if you entered the game for the first time and it asks, would you like to join the rookie unit? Have a mech school where a few good players if the chose to be available and patient like bowser, denair, jayz etc could vet in other trusted pilots to be available in a chat window for advice/tips/help/resources etc. Differentiate these players with a different colored name to help with identification and a title etc. Upgrade the UI or add in a discord link to a made discord run for this purpose.

In theory this is a good idea, but in practice, you end up with guys like Koniving tagged on the forums here as "Welcoming Committee", instead of your aforementioned guys.

[YueFei]

Bush Hopper, on 27 October 2018 - 06:30 AM, said:

Let me ask you a question. In which situation do you think a scrub feels better?

A. He jumps into a mech. Tries to control his mech. Peeks out gets barely a shot off, then gets shredded at once or even killed.


B. He jumps into a mech. Tries to control his mech. Peeks out gets barely a shot off, gets hit. Moves on. Fires a bit more. Takes hits. Fires some shots. Takes hits and dies. All while moving around with his mech.

C. He jumps into a mech, makes a mistake, and dies within 10 seconds of contact -- then respawns, and is back in action 20 seconds later.

If you have to spend 5 minutes waiting for a match, then a minute for everyone to ready up and the match to start, and then another 2 minutes walking into position, only to get gibbed in 10 seconds of action... you're getting 10 seconds of action per 480 seconds.

That's a terrible ratio. In 4 hours of MWO gaming, you'd only get 5 minutes of actually moving and shooting at things.

If, on the other hand, you had a silly gamemode where you could do outrageous things and not be punished by having to wait several minutes again to get back into action, you'd get a much higher volume of practice. If you walked 20 seconds to get into action and exploded 10 seconds later, that'd be a much higher ratio. If you gamed for 4 hours that way, you'd have had 1:20 hours of actually moving and shooting at things.