92 replies to this topic

[ApexSun]

The Topic Title above is a quote from FP pilot Nightbird that I saw in one of his recent posts concerning bad behavior in FP games. I will give him credit because I like the quote and think that it deserves more discussion, hopefully of a constructive nature. Although we are STILL waiting on the FP matchmaker system that was, in my opinion, very nicely laid out in a video a couple months ago we cannot afford to wait much longer before FP is beyond revival. I know...I know...another FP doomsayer thread huh? I have been skipping over these for a year now but it has finally come to pass that the game's population is plummeting drastically, especially in the last couple of months. The FP events were a nice shot in the arm and I do see a number of new names showing up during the 3-4 hours that I play FP on every single day. I have also witnessed an almost complete collapse of unit drops in groups of more than a few pilots. There are still a few units that can drop a full company during prime hours and there is at least one hub group that can drop a 12 man of the most elite players in the game every night.

I am not going to go into names because I don't want this to turn into anything negative about individual pilots or units, but they're well known and have been a fixture in FP for as long as I have played in the least. I am glad to have their caliber of player still invested in the game but its not hard to understand how 10-12 of the most elite players (I should write elite FP Players actually, I don't want to take anything away from the current and former Comp. Tournament champion teams) in the game can pretty much club down a half dozen unit members of ANY unit in the game in the same manner that the same 6 man can dominate a group of new to FP pilots and random PUGs. So what is the issue? Unbalanced games lead directly to Poor Manners and (Un)Acceptable Behavior. Until we have a good matchmaker, as pointed out by Nightbird repeatedly in his post, I don't have an answer on how we can prevent the latter one sided scenario. Perhaps a simple fix could be to always give Siege Defense to the side with the least number of grouped players, every player that I have talked to is 100% in favor of that. So how do we approach the former type of uneven match?

We self-regulate as a community. I have chatted with many of the aforementioned pilots of the Elite Hub in-game. They have told me that they want a good fight. They have told me that they appreciate the tough matches that might actually challenge them. I believe that many of them do want these things. I can name a half dozen of the Elite Hub pilots who will purposely solo synch drop against their own hub just for the challenge. That's the spirit, right? So when they know that there isn't a decent sized group dropping on the other side, why wouldn't they want to divide into two sides to keep the balance? Maybe they like dropping with a full group of similarly skilled pilots in common comms, that is pretty fun after all. That's what most of us enjoy about FP in the first place. However, it's not fun when you are ghost dropping for an hour or two after the competition grows tired of beating their collective heads against the wall so we are shooting ourselves in the foot here. If the Elite Hub doesn't want to "Honorably Self-Regulate" because they like dropping with each other then fine, I can respect that. The rest of the community needs a way to be competitive in matches so that everyone can enjoy the mode. The loss of the ComStar TS hub has left a huge void in the community. We once had a place where we could easily put together an opposing group and coordinate easily enough to position ourselves opposite of the most challenging enemy. Most of the units that left ComStar TS have made their way back to Discord. What we need in a new way to regain that communication. An "Alpha Company McGood Corps" Discord Alliance group should be formed where fragments of units can come together in comms when their host units don't have the manpower online to drop large groups into FP. I am sure that the Elite Hub group leaders would have no problem with communicating their current faction choice with this group, or vice versa, in order to make sure that they get some quality games in. That's about the only way that I can see the end of this disturbing trend of long time FP pilots hitting the retirement community in the sky...or wherever Mechwarriors go when they fade away. We need a leader in the community to step up and champion this. Heck, I will help administrate a new hub if need be. Let's make it sooner rather than later though. Tick Tick.

[Nightbird]

Just wanted to point out that proposed MM will force the two largest numbered teams to fight each other. If one is stronger, the other will lose 100% of the time and break up. Larger teams =/= stronger. Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.

Edited by Nightbird, 06 December 2018 - 02:25 PM.

[JUGMAN]

This is a very good Post Apex. I second your ideas and sincerely hope it gains traction.

[K O Z A K]

The one thing I took away from all this is that Wraith 1 should get the player of the year award

[GeminiWolf]

I will say this again. Until Quick Play is removed and you log into Faction Play, Faction play will remain a ghost realm. I don't play Faction Play because the several times I've attempted to play it, I was sitting in a que for an eternity then once a drop was being put together, I was shoved out in favor of a group. This of course sent me right back into waiting in the que. Not my idea of fun.

[ccrider]

Wait a second, it's not "the elite hub" it's cobra TS omni. Come over and form groups here. I arrange to drop against the strongest team in FP all the time. I just drop down, say hi and ask what side they are on and if they are dropping again. Then I switch sides and drop against them. Super easy, very fun and all of them are good guys I can chat between matches with and get feedback from. Or call them names for lurming.....

[Gilgamecc]

Cobra TS is pretty cool, it would be neat to get it packed with players.

[Armored Yokai]

Comstar discord!

[Gully D]

Easy fix in game VOIP in every window, ie mech lab etc etc
then we can "meet" and grow the community, share news, organise without being split up into ts discord etc etc

blue sky dream ?

[LordNothing]

using civil war battles to reduce the impact of dogpiling would also help a lot. like if there are 5 12 mans on the is side but only one on the clan side. then 4 of those is 12 mans need to fight civil wars. solos also dogpile but that tends to have very little effect on the game quality other than perhaps longer wait times. so civil wars need to happen whenever there is any kind of population balance disparity. it needs to be completely automatic. like if the players are split 60% - 40% then about 20% of drops need to be civil wars in order to compensate for the disparity. also variety is good.

a matchmaker (such as paul's idea) alone doesn't account for dogpiling. especially if it fails because there is a population disparity. like all the 12s on one side fighting pugs because there are not enough 12s on the other side to go around. it is impossible for the matchmaker to create ideal matches and so it falls through to less ideal ones. this is kind of also an issue with the qp matchmaker in that so many valves open up that it may as well not exist. so being able to handle a dogpile scenario would increase quality of games and reduce wait times.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 December 2018 - 06:19 AM.

[Grus]

Ha!! Haha! Ha ha ha! Ha.. no.

Gully D, on 07 December 2018 - 04:33 AM, said:

Easy fix in game VOIP in every window, ie mech lab etc etc
then we can "meet" and grow the community, share news, organise without being split up into ts discord etc etc

blue sky dream ?

Said by someone who obviously dosnt have voip on in game and hears all the potatos crying about lightmechs op..

[Khobai]

Nightbird, on 06 December 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

Just wanted to point out that proposed MM will force the two largest numbered teams to fight each other. If one is stronger, the other will lose 100% of the time and break up. Larger teams =/= stronger. Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.

if the weaker groups always break up after being beaten by the stronger group, what happens when theres no groups left to oppose the stronger group anymore? they just start stomping pugs again.

That solution fixes nothing.

PGI needs to realize that groups themselves have become the problem. groups arnt normally a problem when you have a healthy population of players. But MWO doesnt have that. Its player population is at the point where the game is now on life support and that allows groups of very good players to completely dominate because they know the odds of encountering an equally skilled group are slim to none. Which is only making people give up on the game more. The ability to stack teams needs to be prevented somehow.

The only way a matchmaker can ever properly work is if does whatever is necessary to balance the two teams including forcefully splitting up groups if thats whats required to ensure balanced teams. people should absolutely be allowed to play with friends but NOT when it results in stacked teams. Matchmaker should break up groups and make them fight eachother if it cant find an equally skilled group to match against them.

Edited by Khobai, 07 December 2018 - 06:20 PM.

[ApexSun]

That's called Quick Play. If I can't drop with my unit then I am not interested in playing at all.

[Khobai]

ApexSun, on 07 December 2018 - 06:40 PM, said:

That's called Quick Play. If I can't drop with my unit then I am not interested in playing at all.

im fine if you dont play.

as long as games are better balanced.

people playing with their units does not produce balanced games. it never will. because of the game's current population limitations. Even if there was a competent functional matchmaker it would be unable to draw from a large enough pool of players to put together an equally skilled team. because the number of good players required for that simply doesnt exist.

so really its a point of contention.

you have people that want unbalanced games so they can continue to play with their friends.

and you have people that want balanced games and dont want stacked teams of elite players

from a pure game design standpoint it makes more sense to have balanced games than to let people stack teams and play with their friends. without reasonably balanced games whats the point of even playing? theres no point in playing if the game is stacked before you even start.

thats why a matchmaker needs to be able to break up groups as a last resort to ensure balanced matches.

Edited by Khobai, 07 December 2018 - 06:54 PM.

[xX PUG Xx]

See....that's the great thing about my "friends". We will shoot each other even if we are on the same side.

Seriously gurls, the game is almost 7 years old. The population is in decline (and that's being polite). There is sweet FA we can do, suggest or try at this point. Get in the game, drop solo, drop in small groups, drop in 12 mans: JUST FRIGGIN DROP.


While we still can.

[ccrider]

xX PUG Xx, on 07 December 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

See....that's the great thing about my "friends". We will shoot each other even if we are on the same side.

Seriously gurls, the game is almost 7 years old. The population is in decline (and that's being polite). There is sweet FA we can do, suggest or try at this point. Get in the game, drop solo, drop in small groups, drop in 12 mans: JUST FRIGGIN DROP.


While we still can.

Pug's right; just drop however you are most comfortable. Groups, solo, who cares? It's just about blowing up robots. Pug, Azzael, Devlin and I did 4 man drops today and just did stupid stuff and had a blast. That's the goal; enjoy yourself.

[J a y]

Counter strategy: we all buy ccrider dinner and thank him for running an MWO community of any sort at this phase of the game.

[ApexSun]

I guess the point was lost in my original post. This isn't another "Let's turn the team mode into a single player mode because I don't wanna join a team". That's ridiculous. It's a team gameplay mode...period. If you drop solo and feel left out that there is no answer for that problem yet other than find one of the unit hubs and drop with them. Few, if any, will turn you away. Now that I have excluded the chasing of rabbits, can we stay OT?

What needs to happen now is good gameplay for teams considering the vast level of skill difference that is seen in queue right now. Since it has been pointed out that no good MM or plans for a good MM are in the near future then we have two options.

(1) Overbalanced groups need to self regulate the amount of talent that they drop with if they know that there is no group to oppose them. Let's face it, we all know who is dropping despite all the silly friend/unfriend games being played. There are only a handful of units that can put up any fight at all versus a 12man of BCMC/EVIL/EMP and there are going to be fewer and fewer if this isn't addressed. These overbalanced groups want a good fight, so there should be no problem with adopting a policy on their end.

(2) Are competing hub of players needs to form up and coordinate drops versus overbalanced groups. I had heard that unit leaders from some of the other units are discussing this and I want to urge them on.

[Phoenix 72]

As someone who has been playing online games since 1995, I have to say this:

No honour system is ever going to work on the internet. No matter what the rules are, there will always be a sizeable number of people that do not care and that will get their fun out of ignoring these rules and pissing people off. There will always be people trying to game the system and bend it as far as they can.

[Phoenix 72]

ApexSun, on 07 December 2018 - 09:40 PM, said:

These overbalanced groups want a good fight, so there should be no problem with adopting a policy on their end.

As someone that has never played a single faction match, I seriously doubt that. One of the best things I was taught in life is "Do not pay attention to what people say, just pay attention to what they actually do." Sorry if I am the stick in the mud, spread negative vibes, butt in where I am not wanted or sound like I am trying rile anybody up.

But from my point of view, on the outside looking in, I cannot help but think: If these 12 person uber groups wanted a good fight with their friends, they would not do 12 person drops when there is not enough population on to bring them a challenge. If they keep fighting the same outmatched people over and over and over, that is because they chose to. They could split into 2 6 person groups and let the matchmaker sort things out, or to be even more generous, grab 2 more people and split into 2 7 person groups to ensure they are playing against people of like skill set.

If they do not do that, then the satisfaction they get from playing together and winning obviously outweighs the satisfaction they get from a good tough fight. And if that has not changed since the faction combat was first implemented, it won't anymore.