100 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

That explains why the side torsos go so fast. Why does it lose the arms so fast? Most players just strip the armor out and leave the hardpoints empty.

[RaTMaN203]

This is still an issue. I was getting frustrated because I kept feeling like I was getting shot from, for example, the front right and I was taking damage from the back left. I just felt like I was taking opposite damage. Googling brought me here (top result) and this feels like it explains exactly what is happening. I've never felt like this is happening in any other Mech I've piloted and recently picked up the Vapor eagle VGL-A Variant in the sale. I have no idea how people don't notice it. Maybe because I'm using it as a brawler/ burst damage Mech in close range and lots of people are using it for snipping or poptarting, so it's less noticeable. I don't know.

This should be fixed. It's a fun Mech to play, but this issue is persuading me not to play it.

Have a nice day!
Thanks,
RaTMaN

[pbiggz]

[Tarogato]

RaTMaN203, on 10 October 2021 - 05:08 AM, said:

This is still an issue.

[...]

This should be fixed. It's a fun Mech to play, but this issue is persuading me not to play it.

The Vapor Eagle is one of, if not the most played medium mech in competitive matches. If it had a legitimate issue with its hitboxes, more people would have noticed and complained about it by now, in droves. In reality, it doesn't happen with enough frequency for it to be any real concern.

A slight bit of rear hitbox that is visible from the front is fairly common, you'll see it in a lot of mechs. The solution ... is to make a sizeable portion of the rear of the mech actually count as front hitbox, which is in my opinion almost as awkward.

[MechWarrior5782621]

Tarogato, on 12 October 2021 - 01:29 PM, said:

The Vapor Eagle is one of, if not the most played medium mech in competitive matches. If it had a legitimate issue with its hitboxes, more people would have noticed and complained about it by now, in droves. In reality, it doesn't happen with enough frequency for it to be any real concern.

A slight bit of rear hitbox that is visible from the front is fairly common, you'll see it in a lot of mechs. The solution ... is to make a sizeable portion of the rear of the mech actually count as front hitbox, which is in my opinion almost as awkward.

Yep... it's overplayed in every game mode, because it's too good.

In terms of balance passes, it's time for a few nerfs. For the most part it's all been buffs, although we have seen a few cases of nerfs (ie: Annihilator quirk reduction, which was the right call).

Veagles need some nerfs. Maybe a -5% heat dissipation penalty or w/e, until they are more in line with the rest of the medium weight class.

[Angus McFife VI]

El Bandito, on 08 December 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

You could always armor up the back more.

No.

[pbiggz]

"It killed me so its OP" is not a justification for nerfs.

There will always be a meta. There will always be reliably good mechs people to to when they don't want to think to hard about what build they're playing on a particular day. If the Veagle gets nerf batted, something else will take its place, and then you guys will make the exact same thread demanding it get hit with the nerfbat next.

I know this will happen, because this already happened. Paul did a full circle and a half around this game, nerfing everything until the first things he nerfed were, by dint of having been nerfed years earlier, now relatively powerful.

We're not doing this again.

[MechWarrior5782621]

pbiggz, on 16 October 2021 - 07:43 AM, said:

"It killed me so its OP" is not a justification for nerfs.

There will always be a meta. There will always be reliably good mechs people to to when they don't want to think to hard about what build they're playing on a particular day. If the Veagle gets nerf batted, something else will take its place, and then you guys will make the exact same thread demanding it get hit with the nerfbat next.

I know this will happen, because this already happened. Paul did a full circle and a half around this game, nerfing everything until the first things he nerfed were, by dint of having been nerfed years earlier, now relatively powerful.

We're not doing this again.

"putting quotation marks around fake quotes" is not a valid form of argumentation.

No, nothing will ever come along to take its place. That's the whole point of balancing the game on an ongoing basis. If no one ever plays a certain mech, then it needs a buff. If everyone chooses to play a certain mech above all other options, then it obviously needs a nerf.

We have never done this before. False equivalences are a logical fallacy.

[pbiggz]

Fainting Goat, on 16 October 2021 - 03:11 PM, said:

"putting quotation marks around fake quotes" is not a valid form of argumentation.

No, nothing will ever come along to take its place. That's the whole point of balancing the game on an ongoing basis. If no one ever plays a certain mech, then it needs a buff. If everyone chooses to play a certain mech above all other options, then it obviously needs a nerf.

We have never done this before. False equivalences are a logical fallacy.

But we have done it before. I was there. My account was created October 31 2011. I was there during the pop tart days, jump jets are still not the same. I was there during the gauss PPC days, combining the two weapons is still verboten. You're arguing for another end run around every mech and weapon in the game because something was on top of the pile. If you take it off the top, something else takes its place, that's how this works. There is no magical place we can get to where no mech will be more powerful than another unless we all pilot exactly the same mech with exactly the same weapons.

As for the veagle, it isn't that overrepresented. Warhawks running around with quad PPCs doing 30 extra points of damage, that was overrepresentation. Veagles generally being effective isn't. There isn't a plague of veagles coming after you, so in effect, your argument boils down to "it killed me therefore its op".

[MechWarrior5782621]

pbiggz, on 16 October 2021 - 09:25 PM, said:

But we have done it before. I was there. My account was created October 31 2011. I was there during the pop tart days, jump jets are still not the same. I was there during the gauss PPC days, combining the two weapons is still verboten. You're arguing for another end run around every mech and weapon in the game because something was on top of the pile. If you take it off the top, something else takes its place, that's how this works. There is no magical place we can get to where no mech will be more powerful than another unless we all pilot exactly the same mech with exactly the same weapons.

As for the veagle, it isn't that overrepresented. Warhawks running around with quad PPCs doing 30 extra points of damage, that was overrepresentation. Veagles generally being effective isn't. There isn't a plague of veagles coming after you, so in effect, your argument boils down to "it killed me therefore its op".

Veagles are incredibly over-represented, probably more than any other mech in the game. The Cauldron is crunching the #'s on these sorts of things.

Your arguments aren't specific to nerfs - you are simply arguing against trying to balance the game at all. Well, you've already lost that argument, so now it just comes down to how to balance the game. Thanks for your input.

[pbiggz]

Fainting Goat, on 17 October 2021 - 12:44 AM, said:

Veagles are incredibly over-represented, probably more than any other mech in the game. The Cauldron is crunching the #'s on these sorts of things.

Your arguments aren't specific to nerfs - you are simply arguing against trying to balance the game at all. Well, you've already lost that argument, so now it just comes down to how to balance the game. Thanks for your input.

In no way did i argue against balance. You seem to not understand what balance means here. It's more complicated than just nerf this, buff that. Those represent a small fraction of the tools available in a designer's arsenal.

I don't play this card much but I literally majored in game development, im not talking out my *** here. But just to drive home my point about veagles being overrepresented, there's only one thread going on right now, and, to my knowledge, there has only been one thread in the last month, discussing how overrepresented they are. This one. And 2 people in this thread, you, and the necromancer, are the only ones who are making that assertion.

2 forumers' opinions hardly constitutes a meaningful statistic.

[MechWarrior5782621]

This has been discussed more than once. I don't know which particular thread you're looking at, nor do I care.

Do you even play this game, lol? Everyone knows that Veagles are the most overrepresented mech in every game mode.

Veagles were the highest-scoring chassis in Tarogato's mech rankings survey: https://mwomercs.com...ch-rating-2021/

Are you even arguing in good faith, or just arguing for the sake of arguing?

[Steve Pryde]

Fainting Goat, on 15 October 2021 - 07:31 PM, said:

Yep... it's overplayed in every game mode, because it's too good.

In terms of balance passes, it's time for a few nerfs. For the most part it's all been buffs, although we have seen a few cases of nerfs (ie: Annihilator quirk reduction, which was the right call).

Veagles need some nerfs. Maybe a -5% heat dissipation penalty or w/e, until they are more in line with the rest of the medium weight class.

Negative quirks will never be happen again and that's a good thing. So, instead of nerfing a mech with zero quirks, bring other mechs more in line what is happening more and more.

[MechWarrior5782621]

Steve Pryde, on 17 October 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

Negative quirks will never be happen again and that's a good thing. So, instead of nerfing a mech with zero quirks, bring other mechs more in line what is happening more and more.

Why shouldn't negative quirks happen?

Negative quirks to 1 mech is a lot smarter than buffing every other mech in the game.

[Steve Pryde]

Fainting Goat, on 17 October 2021 - 12:19 PM, said:

Why shouldn't negative quirks happen?

Negative quirks to 1 mech is a lot smarter than buffing every other mech in the game.

We already had negative quirks and they were removed for a good reason. PGI is buffing mechs every month so that happen at the moment, too. You're crying about a mech with zero armor quirks and the worst agility of all medium mechs (even most heavy mechs have better agility when it comes to torso twisting), seriously just shoot the damn thing and it will die in an instant.

Edited by Steve Pryde, 17 October 2021 - 01:03 PM.

[MechWarrior5782621]

Steve Pryde, on 17 October 2021 - 01:03 PM, said:

We already had negative quirks and they were removed for a good reason. PGI is buffing mechs every month so that happen at the moment, too. You're crying about a mech with zero armor quirks and the worst agility of all medium mechs (even most heavy mechs have better agility when it comes to torso twisting), seriously just shoot the damn thing and it will die in an instant.

I only cry for my opponents after I wreck them all in my Veagles... as I would cry for you if we ever 1v1'd.

They're unbalanced. You're just standing in the way of improving this game.

[pbiggz]

Fainting Goat, on 17 October 2021 - 01:11 PM, said:

I only cry for my opponents after I wreck them all in my Veagles... as I would cry for you if we ever 1v1'd.

They're unbalanced. You're just standing in the way of improving this game.

Don't accuse me of arguing in bad faith. You are the one fixated on nerfing a thing you think is overpowered because it killed you.

Your argument carries no more weight or rigor than those of the forumers who wailed about groups in the queue, or claimed snipers were OP because they didn't understand how to position a brawler.

Things in this game are allowed to be good. Good mechs and weapons are fun to play. People like to play them, so they play them more. In the past months we have seen more buffs than we have in years and you are here declaring loudly that we should reverse course and nerf things instead. Your idea of balance isn't balance, its retribution. You're trying to punish people for daring to play what they find fun because you think it gave them a leg up over you.

We did all of that already. We split groups out of the queue, we nerfed until every weapon hit like a wet noodle, and the game never had fewer players. We literally hit our lowest depths because of this attitude, so I will push back whenever I see it rear its ugly head.

Edited by pbiggz, 17 October 2021 - 02:28 PM.

[MechWarrior5782621]

I already posted the evidence - it's the strongest mech in the game, as shown by a poll of 326 players.

Look at some comp match results, you won't see any other mech played as often as the Veagle. Not casual matches... comp matches.

Maybe you slept through your game design classes, but my guess is that you simply don't understand MWO well enough to see what makes the Veagle so strong.

[pbiggz]

Fainting Goat, on 17 October 2021 - 05:29 PM, said:

I already posted the evidence - it's the strongest mech in the game, as shown by a poll of 326 players.

A poll of 326 players is not actual in game statistics. Its a popularity contest among already opinionated people. I don't care how the vealge fares in popularity contests run on old people who post too much on this forum. That same poll puts the vulcan in spitting distance of the veagle and you don't see people wailing about the plague of vulcans ruining their games. Do you want to nerf that one too? Is it too popular? Does it make you feel self-conscious?

Fainting Goat, on 17 October 2021 - 05:29 PM, said:

Look at some comp match results, you won't see any other mech played as often as the Veagle. Not casual matches... comp matches.

If comp is the bar you balance this game against you're going to have a very bad time. Comp decks are always optimized. The Veagle is easy to fit into optimized decks, so it gets into comp decks. This information is utterly useless outside of the competitive world. Pointing at something top end comp pilots play, and saying its OP is a foolish exercise. These are players who carry teams in urbanmech​s, should we be nerfing those?

Fainting Goat, on 17 October 2021 - 05:29 PM, said:

Maybe you slept through your game design classes, but my guess is that you simply don't understand MWO well enough to see what makes the Veagle so strong.

Maybe you don't get to resort to ad hominem when your trashy *** argument runs out of gas because you definitely don't grasp what you're talking about. You lack any wider perception of the impact your agenda might have on the game. You're going by feel. You feel like the veagle kills you too much so now it's public enemy number one in your books. Tarogato ran a poll that suggests its a popular mech, so you're post-hoc rationalizing your ****** opinion with that statistic. That's called confirmation bias. It's ******** and you know it.

Paul Inouye went by feel when he removed knockdowns from the game after a 12 man bullied him. That was in closed beta. He went by feel again when he tried to nerf ER large lasers into the ground after a direwhale microwaved him from a thousand meters. Russ personally rolled that change back because the backlash was so strong. Paul went by feel when he knocked the ups out of jumpjets so hard they literally only got set on a path towards being unfucked this past summer.

Shooting from the hip, without actual statistics, or with cherry picked polling numbers to back up a perception you already had is exactly the kind of ******** that nearly killed this game.

The Veagle is relatively fast, it has good hardpoints, 55 tons is a very good weight class in general for balancing firepower, durability, and speed, perhaps the best, and its a Clan Battlemech. That's why its good.

Its also extremely tall, easily outrun by a wide variety of other mechs, outgunned by many more, and suffers from bad hitboxes and has no defensive quirks. At best, its a jack of all trades, at worst, a glass cannon.

Have i broken it down enough for you or do I need to use smaller words?

Edited by pbiggz, 17 October 2021 - 09:17 PM.

[MechWarrior5782621]

lol. Do you honestly thing you've made any good points?

Earlier you said: "Good mechs and weapons are fun to play. People like to play them, so they play them more."

This brilliant argument is why I brought up comp play.

"If comp is the bar you balance this game against you're going to have a very bad time. Comp decks are always optimized. The Veagle is easy to fit into optimized decks, so it gets into comp decks. This information is utterly useless outside of the competitive world. Pointing at something top end comp pilots play, and saying its OP is a foolish exercise. These are players who carry teams in urbanmech​s, should we be nerfing those?"

You're intentionally making a braindead argument here. There is no reason to nerf urbanmechs.

Please, explain to me why Veagles are easier to fit into optimized decks than any other medium mech? I fail to grasp this point.

Ok, so the poll isn't good enough, and comp play doesn't do it for you, and the combination of the 2 doesn't convince you either. And, you don't understand why they are so widely used in every single game mode. Good luck, sir.

"Tarogato ran a poll that suggests its a popular mech, so you're post-hoc rationalizing your ****** opinion with that statistic. That's called confirmation bias. It's ******** and you know it."

lol, no.

Please, try to make a coherent argument. Are you saying it's not popular, or are you saying it's not good? Or are you saying we have no idea whether it's popular or good, without the official statistics?

I play this game enough, and I understand the game enough, to know that it's the strongest mech in the game, and it's the most popular mech in both comp & FP.

QP is more casual, and people tend to bring whatever mech needs skill points, etc. Also, comp could have fluctuations by season due to varying rules. Comparing it to similar mechs, it stands out from the crown in a way that no other mech in the game does. That's why you rarely see good players playing Huntsman anymore. The Huntsman is still a good mech... but the Veagle rendered it obsolete.

"bad hitboxes" - yeah, right. Also: outgunned? It can't be "outgunned by many mechs" AND be considered a glass cannon at the same time. Your arguments don't even make sense.

It's outgunned by Annihilators, but it has extremely high firepower for its weight class. And it's not a glass cannon - maybe you just lack the piloting skill to use it effectively. Jump jets alone give it better survivability than a Stormcrow.

Lastly, I never claimed that PGI should just shoot from the hip & nerf it. I understand that they will use the official stats while balancing the game. My recommendation is for them to use negative quirks as a solution for the Veagle.

Now you're complaining about ad-hominems, while still accusing me of "crying" over getting killed by Veagles?

You're trash. Bring any medium you want, and 1v1 me. I'll bring a Veagle. It should be no problem for you to beat a glass cannon mech with bad hitboxes & no defensive quirks.