100 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

You're uninterested in any opposing views. I made my case. So have others. Continue living in your delusion.

[MechWarrior5782621]

I'm happy to keep discussing this, and I have made my case as well. You're the one who stopped responding to my views - maybe you need to look in the mirror.

[pbiggz]

But you have never been interested in discussing.

You came to a conclusion long before this thread got ripped from the grave. You're here because it was an opportunity to put your confirmation bias on display.

What a waste of time.

[Tarl Cabot]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 02:06 PM, said:

Fair enough. But I've been seeing hordes of Veagles and Hellbringers in FP for as long as I can remember. I wonder if that will ever change.

Ask yourself this though, which with a quick review of the thread, I am not able to locate but it might be there.

Why do they seen popular? Is it for the same reason many other mechs are/were popular before PGI fixed some bugs but then went overboard on either negative quirks or punted agility to another dimension? Could go even further back before Clans, with the steps they took to nerf "pop-tarting" by not just doing a snippet but castrating JJ on heavy/assaults, but practically removing the entire ability to use JJ for other than some movement assist, followed by adding changing up isERPPC and Gauss Rifle speeds and adding a charge up mechanism for the GR, still on the fence for that one, but I can see the reason.. while use AC20 when GR does a slightly lesser damage, greater range, less weight, etc...

• Hardpoint location!!! Both have HIGH hardpoint locations
  
• Only quirk Veagle has is JJ quirk for Thrust...
  
• Primary use of cERPPC - fire and forget. Get out of sight!! And this is cERPPC, 10dmg PPFLD + 2*2.50 spill over damage.
  
• Clan mechs/omnis are primarily chicken walkers. I really wished PGI would at least give ability for humanoid mechs to temporarily raise at least ONE arm at a time to fire arm-mounted weapons..
  
• All Kodiak were hit hard after they were introduced only cause there had been an outstanding almost non-existent heat bug on UAC10. PGI eventually fixed that bug that has been live since UAC 10 were introduced, reported but not fixed. PGI fixed that issue then brought the hammer down on all Kodiaks, even though the Kodiak 3 was the offender (Kodiak became cousin to Highlander and Victor ).
  
• Could any IS mediums do the same thing as the Veigle with isERPPC? Only the Shadowhawk but it would only be dealing total 30dmg vs Veigle 30dmg + 15dmg splash. and the Shadowhawk would be more crippled unless it used an isXL engine so it can add more DHS, but would die w/loss of 1ST while Veigle would carry on, provided it lost the Right ST and not the Left ST, unless the user split it up between right and left (with appropriate pods)
  
• There is the Black Lanner - but tis energy Hardpoints are in the arms, lower than the torso location...
  
• Hunchback IIC but it has a fat body...not a slender body like the Veigle.
  
• Huntsman - but the energy hardpoints are wide on the Left/right ST...but I love my huntsman
  
• Nova - energy hardpoints mostly in the arms.
  
• Stormcrow - Right/Left mid ST and the arm. thus spread out
  
• Other clan omnis due to located components wouldnt be able to equip 3 cERPPC.

Even without the JJ quirk, Veagle would be the popular ERPPC med mech, and for ATMs. Tis blessing is being skinny, able to equip high mounted Energy hardpoints and that it is a Clan Battlemech, not an Ominmech with locked in equipment.

So you would want all Veagles to have negative quicks due to it being a skinny Clan battletech with 3 high-mounted hardpoints? AND if said mechs have their Left ST targeted and stripped they become sticks, unless they split up the energy HD with appropriate pods.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 18 October 2021 - 03:19 PM.

[MechWarrior5782621]

pbiggz, on 18 October 2021 - 02:44 PM, said:

But you have never been interested in discussing.

You came to a conclusion long before this thread got ripped from the grave. You're here because it was an opportunity to put your confirmation bias on display.

What a waste of time.

Are you implying that you were on the fence regarding this issue, and you only made up your mind after having this discussion?

[MechWarrior5782621]

Carl - it's not just ERPPC's. Veagles are the best medium in the game for all range profiles - long, medium, short. You can run:
3ERPPC
3UAC5
2UAC10
LB20 + LB10
LB20 + 4SRM6
Streaks
ATM's
etc

The only thing it's not the best at is skirmishing with lasers - something like a Lanner is better at that. Still, the Veagle is the most dominant mech for almost every play style. No other mech in any weight class compares to that.

[pbiggz]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:38 PM, said:

Carl - it's not just ERPPC's. Veagles are the best medium in the game for all range profiles - long, medium, short. You can run:
3ERPPC
3UAC5
2UAC10
LB20 + LB10
LB20 + 4SRM6
Streaks
ATM's
etc

The only thing it's not the best at is skirmishing with lasers - something like a Lanner is better at that. Still, the Veagle is the most dominant mech for almost every play style. No other mech in any weight class compares to that.

The grimmechs database has the dakka veagles going between 65 and 69kph.

A 55 tonner. Going sub 70kph.

You gonna leave that out or are you gonna pretend that lots of builds somehow magically equals total domination in every playstyle, a claim that is patently false.

The Triple PPC veagle barely breaks 80. Most of the rest go about 75.


Most of the clan heavy omnis do 86 without trying.

[MechWarrior5782621]

pbiggz, on 18 October 2021 - 04:00 PM, said:

The grimmechs database has the dakka veagles going between 65 and 69kph.

A 55 tonner. Going sub 70kph.

You gonna leave that out or are you gonna pretend that lots of builds somehow magically equals total domination in every playstyle, a claim that is patently false.

The Triple PPC veagle barely breaks 80. Most of the rest go about 75.


Most of the clan heavy omnis do 86 without trying.

The 5UAC2 build?

If you disagree with it being placed in A-tier, take that up with Grimmechs, since you obviously think you're so much smarter than them.

Yes, there are faster mechs in the game... but not with that firepower. If you personally value speed so much, you can always adjust the loadout & bring a larger engine.

[Tarl Cabot]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:38 PM, said:

Carl - it's not just ERPPC's. Veagles are the best medium in the game for all range profiles - long, medium, short. You can run:
3ERPPC
3UAC5
2UAC10
LB20 + LB10
LB20 + 4SRM6
Streaks
ATM's
etc

The only thing it's not the best at is skirmishing with lasers - something like a Lanner is better at that. Still, the Veagle is the most dominant mech for almost every play style. No other mech in any weight class compares to that.

And again, why is that? It doesnt change anything I listed on my previous post, and that would be Hardpoints locations, skinny profile (also taller) BUT MOST important, it is Clan Battlemech.. not an Omnimech w/locked in components. And Clan equipment are lighter and tend to take up less space than their IS counterparts. The only quirk it has is the JJ quirks.

The only other clan battlemech would be the Hunchback IIC, which as actual quirks, Armor quirks and even HSL+ for UAC20s, ballistic cooldowns, SRM quirks, etc. and can also be equipped with JJ.

This thread was necro from 2018, the said thing was this thread started off wanting the Veagle's hitboxes fixed cause player was complaining about being hit in rear of his Veagle from a front shot...

The thread you should have bumped was the following - and you might ask a Mod to move the posts from this month to that thread, or move it to tis own thread.

https://mwomercs.com...he-vapor-eagle/

PS the real question would be, are there any other CLAN MEDIUM Battlemechs that could be added, in the 50/55-ton range, especially with high mount hardpoints? And remember, for Clans in lore, Clan Battlemechs are considered 2nd line or garrison mechs...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 18 October 2021 - 04:17 PM.

[MechWarrior5782621]

Your assessment is accurate, imo - it's mainly the hardpoints that make it such a strong mech, plus the clan tech & the profile. Certainly not the quirks.

I would never bump an old thread - I just replied to this one because it was on the top of the list, and I was bored

Hunchie IIC is good too (but, not even close, really).

[Tarl Cabot]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 04:16 PM, said:

Your assessment is accurate, imo - it's mainly the hardpoints that make it such a strong mech, plus the clan tech & the profile. Certainly not the quirks.

I would never bump an old thread - I just replied to this one because it was on the top of the list, and I was bored

Hunchie IIC is good too (but, not even close, really).

True on the Hunchback IIC, primarily because it is short and fat, even though it has nice quirks to use its equipment (chuckles). And it is 50-tons vs 55-tons for the Veagle, that is a 5-tons the hunchie cannot really make up except by having a lower engine rating and/or fewer JJ, etc. And the Veagle weak spot is that Left ST, take it out and most or all of its weapons are stripped. I have seen my share of stick Veagles, provided their opponents return fire, even if retreating.. return fire

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 18 October 2021 - 04:23 PM.

[pbiggz]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 04:06 PM, said:

The 5UAC2 build?

If you disagree with it being placed in A-tier, take that up with Grimmechs, since you obviously think you're so much smarter than them.

Who said anything about what i agreed or disagreed with on grimmechs? These are the top level competitive builds. Not mine. These are the ones that you would be citing as the problem builds, since, by your logic, the presence of these builds means the mech must be overrepresented. So lets dig into them shall we?

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 04:06 PM, said:

Yes, there are faster mechs in the game... but not with that firepower. If you personally value speed so much, you can always adjust the loadout & bring a larger engine.

Triple PPC: 82.5 kph, 288 points of armour: the only veagle in S or A tier that breaks 80.
ATMS: 75.1 kph, 307 points of armour
Dakka: 66.3 kph (double uac5 uac10), 307 armour
5 ac2: 69.2 kph, 307 armour
the dreaded lbx20 4srm6: 75.1 kph, 345 armour
Gauss vomit: 69.2 kph, 307 armour

Of all the S or A tier vapour eagle builds, 1 of them breaks 80. 1. So you must concede that the mech isn't particularly fast.
Most of these builds run 307 armour. That's max front armour, with 2 points on the back, with significant stripping of the head and any arm that actually has anything in it.

In a meta where we have heavy mechs running blap alphas easily breaking 60 points, running with 40 points in your legs is pretty risky. Running with 40 points in your legs while you go 65. That's dangerous. You are trying to make the claim that these builds are a problem when 3 of them go sub 70 and only one of them goes over 80, and if you turn around and tell me I can increase the engine size, that means i have to strip armour or weapons which either leaves you with even more of a glass cannon, or it leaves with alot less weapons.

The point I am making, the one that you seem determined not to accept, is that for every one of these outrageously well armed builds, there is already a significant drawback. These things can barely keep up with IS heavies. They are as squishy as any clan medium, if not more. They get to have big guns in exchange. That's more than reasonable. If you think otherwise at this point then it's clear you've simply decided to think otherwise, and nothing anyone here says will sway you.

[MechWarrior5782621]

You're not getting it.

Every chassis has a balance between firepower and speed. That's not a new concept.

Veagles are in S-tier and A-tier. Other chassis are not. The reason: Veagles are better.

You're obviously trying to argue that these builds are not as good/dominant as Grimmechs has rated them. Just stop.

[pbiggz]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 04:34 PM, said:

You're not getting it.

I think you're not.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 04:34 PM, said:

Every chassis has a balance between firepower and speed. That's not a new concept.

Apparently it is to you.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 04:34 PM, said:

Veagles are in S-tier and A-tier. Other chassis are not. The reason: Veagles are better.

https://grimmechs.is...ts?list=general

just look at all those vapour eagles. One of them's called a vulcan! there's a phoenix hawk! A wolverine! A crab, a dervish, those sure are weird lookin' vapour eagles. And that's just S tier. There's a whole 32 builds in A tier that all seem to be really weird variants of the vapour eagle. I wonder what's up with that.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 04:34 PM, said:

You're obviously trying to argue that these builds are not as good/dominant as Grimmechs has rated them. Just stop.

This right here is called a strawman. It's also not what I said.

[MechWarrior5782621]

Yes, you were. There is no other reason for you to bring up the topic of speed.

In the generalist list, for clan mediums, there are 5 mechs - all Veagles.

[pbiggz]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 05:00 PM, said:

Yes, you were. There is no other reason for you to bring up the topic of speed.

No I wasn't. That's a claim you made.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:38 PM, said:

Carl - it's not just ERPPC's. Veagles are the best medium in the game for all range profiles - long, medium, short. You can run:
3ERPPC
3UAC5
2UAC10
LB20 + LB10
LB20 + 4SRM6
Streaks
ATM's
etc

The only thing it's not the best at is skirmishing with lasers - something like a Lanner is better at that. Still, the Veagle is the most dominant mech for almost every play style. No other mech in any weight class compares to that.

You brought up the grimmechs builds. You are asserting that they're overpowered, I even bolded the part where you did exactly that. I'm pointing out that they have clear drawbacks, mostly durability and speed, and have minimal application and appeal outside of skilled hands and competitive environments.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 05:00 PM, said:

In the generalist list, for clan mediums, there are 5 mechs - all Veagles.

So you filtered the list.

What ******* value is it to this discussion if you ctrl-f for vapour eagles, and then pretend there's nothing else in the ******* list. Are you ******* kidding me? What the **** is wrong with you?

[MechWarrior5782621]

YOU were the first one to bring up Grimmechs! Post #87

"...and have minimal application and appeal outside of skilled hands and competitive environments."

The rest was fine - it was your opinion, and it was reasonable. But this part is absurd. Those are great builds for any game mode. That's why they're in the "generalist" list, rather than the "specialist" list.

"So you filtered the list."

You're the one who doesn't want to compare them to Annihilators. Make up your mind. I looked at the list of top-tier clan medium mechs, and they're all Veagles. It's just 1 data set, but it's significant. Just like the poll of hundreds of players which I cited earlier. And BTW, that wasn't a popularity contest - he asked which mechs are the strongest, not the most fun to play.

Lastly: you still haven't answered my question regarding all the many mechs that have more firepower than Veagles. I'm waiting.

[pbiggz]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 05:20 PM, said:

stuff

no no. This conversation has zero value now that it's clear you just filter the list to get rid of any information that might challenge you, and then present this fake filtered list as though it were the master tier list.

We are absolutely and unequivocally done here. No more strawmanning, no more trying to confuse people or change the topic. You're done kid.

[MechWarrior5782621]

lol, sure, buddy

[Tesunie]

I am thinking you two have likely gone on long enough... Agree to just disagree?