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Target Lock Changes - One Size Doesn't Fit All

Weapons Balance

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#1 Asym

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 07:50 AM

OK, I haven't played full-time in a long while: only events. And, I play a lot of LRM or missile mechs and I comment a lot of Missiles and associated missile game play....

The problem is that when PGI made the time it takes to obtain a target lock longer, they screwed Assault mechs and any other mech attempting to defend against leg hugging MG lights.... Aiming is one thing.....waiting 10 seconds to obtain a lock isn't reasonable... All of those skill points in sensors are a waste of time now???

I've been playing a anti-light MDD quite a bit in this event and I am usually right behind the assaults providing support and I have had a lot of enemy lights attempting to back stab the assaults..... There is nothing wrong with this tactic BUT, even when a dedicated anti-light mech can't target a close in light with the weapons designed to defeat those mechs, PGI has created an OP situation....

At a reasonable distance, "aiming" to target isn't easy because of the speed of the lights.... At "danger close" distances, it's impossible and the assault pilots literally, can't do anything even IF they had anti-light streaks.....

I recommend that PGI "split the difference" in lock times based on distance. Locks at ranges less that 400 meters revert back to the original lock times and anything over 400 meters stays as it is now. If "aiming" is the reason for the change to introduce "skill in use" then, PGI has failed. All they've introduced is an OP situation for lights and completely negated an entire anti-light weapons class's effectiveness (streaks),,,,,, Not because streaks are OP, but because, the lock time is WAY TOO LONG at heavy MG ranges....

For me, it was fun to play in this holiday event and sad, because it's very difficult to use a lot of the mechs I've configured to fight lights.... I've even played lights (which I am terrible at) and it is ridiculously easy to kill assaults now and you can literally "run by" heavy MDD's armed for lights because they canb't lock you fast enough to make a difference !!!

What are your thoughts?

Edited by Asym, 26 December 2018 - 07:53 AM.


#2 Gen Lee

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 08:06 AM

Just in case you were thinking skill nodes or Targeting Computers help get faster locks on targets with homing missiles, they don't. Neither skill nodes or TCs help with quicker locks. If you want faster locks, the only way to do so is to use line-of-sight targeting, Active Probes (to counter ECM inside the bubble), use a TAG or Light Tag, Artemis, and NARC beacons.

WRT quicker locks at shorter ranges, it could be something worth looking into, but I seriously doubt PGI is going to bother trying to make big changes like that in the game this late into its lifespan. I'm thinking the recent change to heat regarding side torso loss on cXL and LFE engines was done purely out of laziness, hoping that for some reason it would fix a bug or bugs that apparently have nothing to do with said change.

Great idea, let's introduce another ridiculous mechanic that not only hurts gameplay, but doesn't even fix the bug it was intended to. Then, leave it the change in the game despite it not making anything better and not fixing said bug(s). Well done, lol.

Edited by Gen Lee, 26 December 2018 - 08:11 AM.


#3 El Bandito

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 08:14 AM

Stop using SSRMs and start investing in MPLs against Lights.

#4 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 08:25 AM

Having recently played with SSRMs (for the "TAG Damage" event) it never took more than ~2s to get locks vs non-ECM 'mechs. I was also carrying BAP & TAG, as all good lock-on builds should. Couldn't tell you how long it took to lock-on to ECM targets, as I just swapped to someone else instead. This is with minimal Skill Tree investment (1 point for 2nd consumable, 5 points for 20% Radar Deprivation, which also gets me 21% TIG and 0.7s Target Decay).

Spoiler

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 26 December 2018 - 09:01 AM.


#5 Racerxintegra2k

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 08:50 AM

SSRM's are trully bad compared to the way they worked previously. Locking on takes way to long for the play style to work.

#6 dario03

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 08:53 AM

Streaks shouldn't be an anti-light weapon anyways. When a team needs somebody on anti-light duty it shouldn't be "ok who can we throw in the auto aim weapon mech?", it should be "ok who is a good shot?". I still see plenty of streak boats, and they all seem to go for lights. Any further changes should be changes that balance them against all weight classes.

#7 Spheroid

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 08:55 AM

@Jay Leon: The term predates stealth armor and is unrelated. Its basically the hit and run bonus while using a TAG laser for the assist. You got an assist while remaining unseen.

Edited by Spheroid, 26 December 2018 - 08:57 AM.


#8 justcallme A S H

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 08:58 AM

View PostAsym, on 26 December 2018 - 07:50 AM, said:

OK, I haven't played full-time in a long while: only events. And, I play a lot of LRM or missile mechs

What are your thoughts?


Explains plenty.

#9 Koniving

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 09:00 AM

View PostAsym, on 26 December 2018 - 07:50 AM, said:

OK, I haven't played full-time in a long while: only events. And, I play a lot of LRM or missile mechs and I comment a lot of Missiles and associated missile game play....

The problem is that when PGI made the time it takes to obtain a target lock longer, they screwed Assault mechs and any other mech attempting to defend against leg hugging MG lights.... Aiming is one thing.....waiting 10 seconds to obtain a lock isn't reasonable... All of those skill points in sensors are a waste of time now???

I've been playing a anti-light MDD quite a bit in this event and I am usually right behind the assaults providing support and I have had a lot of enemy lights attempting to back stab the assaults..... There is nothing wrong with this tactic BUT, even when a dedicated anti-light mech can't target a close in light with the weapons designed to defeat those mechs, PGI has created an OP situation....

At a reasonable distance, "aiming" to target isn't easy because of the speed of the lights.... At "danger close" distances, it's impossible and the assault pilots literally, can't do anything even IF they had anti-light streaks.....

I recommend that PGI "split the difference" in lock times based on distance. Locks at ranges less that 400 meters revert back to the original lock times and anything over 400 meters stays as it is now. If "aiming" is the reason for the change to introduce "skill in use" then, PGI has failed. All they've introduced is an OP situation for lights and completely negated an entire anti-light weapons class's effectiveness (streaks),,,,,, Not because streaks are OP, but because, the lock time is WAY TOO LONG at heavy MG ranges....

For me, it was fun to play in this holiday event and sad, because it's very difficult to use a lot of the mechs I've configured to fight lights.... I've even played lights (which I am terrible at) and it is ridiculously easy to kill assaults now and you can literally "run by" heavy MDD's armed for lights because they canb't lock you fast enough to make a difference !!!

What are your thoughts?


To simplify your life, here's a couple of simple tips.

One: Aim center mass.
The closer to the middle of the target bracket you get, the faster your lock time. If you have it on the edge, you will NEVER complete a lock. That 10 second time to get a lock might not be an exaggeration, I'm not shocked. But that means you're not aiming at the center of the target, the closer you aim to the middle, the faster the lock.

Two: ARMLOCK = OFF.
You can lock with both the + and the o crosshairs regardless of whether your Streaks or LRMs are mounted on the torso, arms or both. Arms track faster than torso. You also torsotwist faster with the armlock off. Thus it makes sense if you have a streak-centric build to keep the armlock OFF.
(You can always turn it on for other mechs or hold shift to put everything center-mass for that big alpha strike or to keep all the direct fire weapons together.)

Three: SRMs in the arms, Streaks in the torso.
(this doesn't apply in your example of a Mad Dog, buts its a general preference of mine)
Having SRMs in the arms allow you to have an anti-light capable defense and additional punch even in the face of ECM. This also allows you to lead enemy lights and hit them far better than any torso mounted equipment could allow.
(In your case for the Mad Dog, bring SPL or MPL which are very effective against light mechs and aim for legs).

Four: A TAG and Artemis couldn't hurt.
TAG gives you 25% faster locking time, and negates the penalty of an enemy ECM to normal lock time (its a soft counter).
Artemis gives you 25% faster locking time, and as a bug this applies to the only locking system in the game regardless of whether or not you have LRMs. As such, it applies to streaks with no weight penalty. PGI has shown no interest in fixing this bug and its been around since Artemis was introduced. You may as well use it.
(Fixed in August apparently, and evidently after they made it give a boost of 50% instead of the original 25%.)
Hope this helps.
Good hunting.

One more tip.
Skill tree > Sensors > Target Decay.
Max out on it, which helps against the Radar Derp users. Yes the actual effect is cut around half against Radar Derp but any help in tracking those pests is help indeed and will help you keep the lock long enough to get the crosshair back in place when they try the circle-around method.

Partial reverse (about 1/3rd to 2/3rds) and turning in the opposite direction to quickly reacquire them when they get behind you also helps immensely.

Edited by Koniving, 26 December 2018 - 09:13 AM.


#10 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 09:00 AM

View PostSpheroid, on 26 December 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

@Jay Leon: The term predates stealth armor and is unrelated. Its basically the hit and run bonus while using a TAG laser for the assist. You got an assist while remaining unseen.

Thanks! Will edit post to avoid confusion then.

#11 Mister Maf

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 09:04 AM

The problem isn't the lock time, it's the narrow lock angle. You have to aim pretty much directly at the mech model now to lock on, not just inside the target reticle. That's what makes it so difficult to lock on to small fast-moving targets, and it does very little to hamper long-range LRM play (which was, for reasons that escape me, the entire point of the change). If they revert the narrow lock angle change, streaks would be much better.

Edited by Mister Maf, 26 December 2018 - 09:04 AM.


#12 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 09:06 AM

View PostKoniving, on 26 December 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

Three: SRMs in the arms, Streaks in the torso.
Having SRMs in the arms allow you to have an anti-light capable defense and additional punch even in the face of ECM. This also allows you to lead enemy lights and hit them far better than any torso mounted equipment could allow.

Solid advice.

View PostKoniving, on 26 December 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

Four: A TAG and Artemis couldn't hurt.
TAG gives you 25% faster locking time, and negates the penalty of an enemy ECM to normal lock time (its a soft counter).
Artemis gives you 25% faster locking time, and as a bug this applies to the only locking system in the game regardless of whether or not you have LRMs. As such, it applies to streaks with no weight penalty. PGI has shown no interest in fixing this bug and its been around since Artemis was introduced. You may as well use it.

The Artemis bug was fixed in August, unless they didn't actually fix it.

Quote

Additionally, the Artemis upgrade was also applying these benefits to ATM's and Streak Systems without any further cost investment to the base launchers. This change will close the Artemis loophole on those systems, making their overall performance no longer dependent on any kind of hidden mechanic / upgrade. ATM and Streak launchers will now behave identically to one another whether a 'Mech has an upgraded Artemis system or not.

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 26 December 2018 - 09:07 AM.


#13 Koniving

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 09:11 AM

View PostJay Leon Hart, on 26 December 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

Solid advice.


The Artemis bug was fixed in August, unless they didn't actually fix it.


Gotcha. Forgot about that one.
In which case its fixed.
TAG's still gonna give you benefits though.

(I reported that problem in 2012... 2018 they fix it. Sigh.)
(Only been using streaks on my King Crab in 2018 as part of my Piranha hunting and haven't tried with and without so haven't noticed much difference. The success of just twin SRM-2s in the arms on my Archer's basically removed my reliance on streaks.)

Edited by Koniving, 26 December 2018 - 09:15 AM.


#14 JediPanther

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 10:34 AM

Light pilots really hate pulse lasers. Spl on lights are good light vs light weapons still. My Ember rocks spl and standard mgs. I do a lot of damage with the spls far more than the mgs.

#15 Spheroid

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 11:07 AM

View Postdario03, on 26 December 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

Streaks shouldn't be an anti-light weapon anyways. When a team needs somebody on anti-light duty it shouldn't be "ok who can we throw in the auto aim weapon mech?", it should be "ok who is a good shot?". I still see plenty of streak boats, and they all seem to go for lights. Any further changes should be changes that balance them against all weight classes.


If you eliminate their anti-light niche they become redundant weapons as the alternatives are all better for the weight. What amazing attributes would you add to make I.S. streaks better than SRMs? What amazing attributes would you add to make them better than ATMs for Clan?

I was under the impression that of all BattleTech weapons translated to a fps environment streaks were one of the weapons that people least took issue with since their first outing in 1995's MechWarrior 2. Am I wrong?

Edited by Spheroid, 26 December 2018 - 11:07 AM.


#16 LordNothing

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 11:54 AM

in most mechwarrior games, streaks usually lock almost instantly. its pretty much a brawl weapon, except you have a delay before firing. and its not like you can twist away or stay in cover during that delay, you have to expose your entire torso while you acquire lock. its one of the reasons i usually prefer normal srms on light hunters over streaks. it takes less time to aim than to get a lock.

on heavier mechs when you can take an mrm 30/40, lots of pulse lasers or lbx, you can really give those lights a bad time. most lights will bug out if you land a couple hits on them before they get into gank range, and you just cant do that if you are waiting for a lock. sometimes il go after a streak boat in a squirrel if i think i can outmaneuver well enough to slip a lock and have the appropriate sensor skills/equipment.

also unless you are boating them you aren't going to have the huge delete key that streaks are supposed to be, and that just makes your build more a situational feast or famine weapon. so throwing a couple streak 6es on an assault mech isnt really that much of a deterrent because of the locking mechanics and the rngesus homing mechanic. i generally dont like a lot of the locking mechanics in this game and streaks are no exception.

also do something about tag, make it more than simply a lock accelerator. make it a proper laser designator that can guide almost any missile (except mrms and rockets which are supposed to be dumbfire) to some degree without needing a lock. living legends had great tag mechanics and mwo should just copy them verbatim.

#17 Koniving

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 11:56 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 26 December 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

in most mechwarrior games, streaks usually lock almost instantly. its pretty much a brawl weapon, except you have a delay before firing.

(While true, you also lost the lock as soon as you fired and had to get a new lock for the next volley in those games)

#18 dario03

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 12:04 PM

View PostSpheroid, on 26 December 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:


If you eliminate their anti-light niche they become redundant weapons as the alternatives are all better for the weight. What amazing attributes would you add to make I.S. streaks better than SRMs? What amazing attributes would you add to make them better than ATMs for Clan?

I was under the impression that of all BattleTech weapons translated to a fps environment streaks were one of the weapons that people least took issue with since their first outing in 1995's MechWarrior 2. Am I wrong?


I would lower their damage and make their tracking based on target weight. Spread a lot against lights, torso focused on larger mechs. Nerf against lights is balanced by the buff vs bigger mechs.

#19 Asym

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 03:14 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 26 December 2018 - 08:58 AM, said:


Explains plenty.

What? That "something has changed in the lock mechanics?" That what worked before was better for the mission I was having fun with?

The goal is to keep "everyone" playing......not, drive them off...

View PostEl Bandito, on 26 December 2018 - 08:14 AM, said:

Stop using SSRMs and start investing in MPLs against Lights.

Maybe sage advice but not what will help accomplish the anti-light mission in a MDD... Yes, you could mount 6 MpL's on that chassis and run around I guess........but, I stick to missiles because they are a lot easier to play one handed......

If we want "balance" the OP lights can't have all of the advantages and lengthening lock-time does just that for many of us that play the Missile side of MWO....

I do appreciate all of the suggestions. It's been somewhat fun being back but, sadly, the event is almost done and it's time to return to sea or space full time ! Have a happy and safe holiday !!!

#20 FupDup

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 03:21 PM

View PostAsym, on 26 December 2018 - 03:14 PM, said:

Maybe sage advice but not what will help accomplish the anti-light mission in a MDD... Yes, you could mount 6 MpL's on that chassis and run around I guess........but, I stick to missiles because they are a lot easier to play one handed......

What's the other hand doing, hmm? :P

BTW the Vulture can actually hold 8 lasers if you have the Revenant.





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