68 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Windscape, on 07 January 2019 - 02:00 PM, said:

I like the idea of dropship killing, but I thought about it and realized that it’s addition would disastrous without proper precautionary methods and still a useless mechanic with them. Dropship killing would end up being a useless feature that would take a long time to develop, just to make the game feel more alive.

Several other features need to be fixed/added first by PGI.

A long time to develop? Unless including environmental destruction... Which they won't. All they need to do is make the dropship retreat when it begins suffering internal damage.

The rest is true, though. It would be a worthless feature by itself. If perhaps it created a delay in the return of a dropship for spawns and the like. However I was just thinking of it as a means of dealing with the dropship spam some defenders enjoy...and as a means for counter play if dropship were to be fully armed.

In an ideal scenario as attackers gain ground dropships should get ballsier and bring mechs closer and closer to the front line rather than the same place regardless. Now if a dropship took too much damage than the dropship should instead pick a safer LZ further back. (Now you have a useful feature).

Edited by Koniving, 07 January 2019 - 04:37 PM.

[HammerMaster]

Koniving, on 07 January 2019 - 04:36 PM, said:

A long time to develop? Unless including environmental destruction... Which they won't. All they need to do is make the dropship retreat when it begins suffering internal damage.

The rest is true, though. It would be a worthless feature by itself. If perhaps it created a delay in the return of a dropship for spawns and the like. However I was just thinking of it as a means of dealing with the dropship spam some defenders enjoy...and as a means for counter play if dropship were to be fully armed.

In an ideal scenario as attackers gain ground dropships should get ballsier and bring mechs closer and closer to the front line rather than the same place regardless. Now if a dropship took too much damage than the dropship should instead pick a safer LZ further back. (Now you have a useful feature).

100% correct.
The dropship are single coded in and out or hover with no other ai feature.
It can be done.

Edited by HammerMaster, 08 January 2019 - 04:32 AM.

[Koniving]

HammerMaster, on 08 January 2019 - 04:29 AM, said:

100% correct.
The dropship are single coded in and out or hover with no other ai feature.
It can be done.

Indeed.
They also have independent targeting of multiple turrets. It can attack multiple players at once from different laser "turrets"...though they have no physically visible 'turret' they more or less have multiple "turrets" in the ship itself which is what fires at players. These currently have infinite health and cannot be hit as they are 'inside' the ship.

Very slight modifications can give the dropship the "weapons bays". Moving their placement can make them destructible, so that while spawn camping would be much harder, it'd still be a possible tactic if players cut through some of the weapons. (PGI says they won't do anything to stop "valid gameplay strategies" such as poptarting, camping, etc. Just make them harder. As such, bam. This would make it harder but still feasible and significantly more engaging by providing new and easily just as important targets that can fight back even at 'camp-outside of range' distance.)

While the ship hovers, it can simply hover longer than necessary and retreat when receiving a certain amount of damage.

Placement of where it lands is something that can be set to follow location triggers. If players made it to X1 location, Dropship could land at Y1 location. If players made it to X3, dropship could land at Y3. Where this could be a gamed mechanic to take advantage of is if a player rushed and triggered say Location X5, and the next drop zone for that and the three players that came in with him on Dropship 2, for example, would then make its next drop at location Y5. Immediately unleashing hefty firepower on the area and retreating once it sustains a certain amount of damage.

Of course the counter play to this, is if the ship does take hefty damage, that specific dropship won't return in the "30 second window" but instead in a 2 to 4 minute window (and back to normal after that if not given too much damage). As a reward for "crippling" / "destroying" the ship, If the ship is crippled/destroyed (it'd just fly away either way) before it "leaves," it could cut off all future drops for that set of four players.

Meaning if all three dropships are crippled/destroyed, all the mechs would be unable to respawn.

PGI has already made use of the "offensive" Dropship. The mode with two bases has the air control tower. What this does is send a dropship into the enemy base where it hovers for a couple of minutes to fire on any player in the base. It doesn't attack static targets (which is pretty dumb but understandable as the dropship is currently invincible). But what if it did? And it could be sent away if you damage it significantly enough? Going for the rear as I described before it'd only take a couple hundred damage. It could be set to pull away once the armor is pierced.

This would make it both a more significant "use" of a power cell, a bigger game mechanic, and give counter play options...which is something that doesn't exist currently. There is no counter play options against dropships at the moment except "wait til it goes away" and "camp outside of range."

Edited by Koniving, 08 January 2019 - 10:35 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

justcallme A S H, on 07 January 2019 - 01:45 PM, said:

Think about your suggestions logically.

tl;dr
current system not working either, should try come up with a solution or at least suggestions on how to fix it.


Logically viewed i would attest that FP is in deep $#!T and hardly any new players (well neither old nor regular players too for that matter) want to set foot into it.

Spawncamping is a HUGE issue which discourages folks from playing the mode.
Premades abusing and exploiding the systems to the very outermost, be it full lurm narc attack on polar, or 12x assassins/linebackers rushes and obviously spawncamping too.

Imagine for a second you're new to faction play and die ONCE before your remaining 3 mechs will get shot to pieces seconds after you got tossed out of the dropship. There gotta be something we can do at least about that issue.

Being a primarily premade player the obviously "GrOuP uP & GiT gUd SkRuB" which is preached for four years now is very, very obviously NOT solving the issue.

I've seen YOU camping pugs hard, so your "gameplan" of exploiding the gamemechanic and inexperience of the enemy is the actual problem. Now we gotta figure out how we prevent you from exploiding the system without causing other issues (such as hiding at the droppoints).

(And, yes, i too camp dropzones)

Sorry but you specifically have a lot of expertise on dropzone camping, you could probably come up with suggestions how to combat the issue and make the gamemode a little bit more fun to play even for the presumably losing side.


My takes on the Issue

easy approche: Currently the dropcommander can shuffle players into different lances, resulting their dropzone point to change. This "feature" is very, very underused and a lot of folks don't even know it is possible. Promoting this INGAME by us players can help preventing spawncamping right now and i heavily suggest ACTUALLY USING the feature and ACTIVELY promoting it.

It is a very labour intensive task to monitor each teammate (position in lance and death) and to manually drag an drop each player whenever someone dies.
It also has it's flaws since it occupies the dropcommander.
It also doesn't work when the dropcommander dies and respawns (command can't be renouced while waiting for respawn)
It doesn't do anything for most actual siege maps since the dropzones are usually too close together
And, lastly, it doesn't work when someone else is "hugging" the command spot to throw "tacticool" commands and icons around.

Still, it's something which can be done literally right now.

secondly: Let each player decide where they want to drop, much like they decide which 'mech they want to use. This obviously required work on PGI's end.

Lastly, give dropships and drops in general more meaning. If dropships would have more firepower so 12 mechs can't just easily ignore them anymore it would help. Indirect fire would help a freaking lot since folks like to hide behind cover until a dropship tossed someone down and left. Having a 360° LRM/STREAK would make such behavior much less rewarding.

If dropships can't be altered (because PGI said so for god knows what petty reasons) then let the dropship be accompanied by 2-3 light aircafts (vtol which can fire, shift position (in a set pattern) and can be shot down too). We know PGI can make objects move, dropships move and shot, UAVS shifting their positions). Obviously more on PGI's part (and i feel bad that i even have to think about IF or IF NOT PGI is actually capable to programm a drone in cryengine, they should absolutely, without a doubt, be capable to).

[justcallme A S H]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 08 January 2019 - 12:39 PM, said:

tl;dr
current system not working either, should try come up with a solution or at least suggestions on how to fix it.

There have been already. Much better and easily doable ones. I mean Paul has even discussed them as well...

But here we are with people wanting entirely new mechanics that really, ain't gonna add anything. I mean being able to shoot down incoming reinforcements or having it fly away once it gets to a certain %... Why even bother.


Plus Spawn Camping and even many of the proposed "changes" that are apparently meant to "fix" it - Won't do anything.

If you put in super power dropships then teams simply won't leave their dropzone at all as a deliberate tactic. Now you have to counter that with some kinda "force them out" of the DZ mechanic and is adding further complexity and now you're well on the way down the rabbit hole.

Bad builds, skill and organisation are the issues. If people dont "camp the DZ" or are stopped they will just wait 700m away for the enemy to come out and do the same damn thing. Literally, nothing will change there until players literally stop being ignorant / disorganised / bringing rubbish builds for specific maps.

Hence I said logical thought. It's really a thing that needs to happen.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 08 January 2019 - 02:38 PM.

[K O Z A K]

justcallme A S H, on 08 January 2019 - 02:36 PM, said:

Bad builds, skill and organisation are the issues. If people dont "camp the DZ" or are stopped they will just wait 700m away for the enemy to come out and do the same damn thing. Literally, nothing will change there until players literally stop being ignorant / disorganised / bringing rubbish builds for specific maps.

dropzone farming (effectively meaning one team rolled the other) is not going to go anywhere for the very reason stated above. It doesn't matter if your wave 4 srm atlas on polar highlands dies inside the spawn as soon as they come out of the dropship, or just as they go out through the door by a line of ERLL/PPC/LRM mechs 700m away. Large discrepancies in player/team skill and builds that are effective for map/mode will always result in bad losses

but let's start a bunch more threads with essay long posts about crazy new mechanics that would take months to program (at a time when it's been made pretty clear new features for MWO that need to be designed and programmed are basically not going to happen) and break the game in entirely new ways. I guess it's kind of therapeutic?

[HammerMaster]

@HazeClaw/ASH
Wish I had someone to keep liking each others posts.
SHeesH!

[vonJerg]

Now now @HammerMaster, do not cry. Look, GweNTLeR loves ya.

[HammerMaster]

vonJerg, on 09 January 2019 - 01:23 AM, said:

Now now @HammerMaster, do not cry. Look, GweNTLeR loves ya.

Tears of Joy! Pff!

[K O Z A K]

I didn't know that was so important to you. There you go buddy

[B L O O D W I T C H]

justcallme A S H, on 08 January 2019 - 02:36 PM, said:

Hence I said logical thought. It's really a thing that needs to happen.

This has been said since Phase 1, December 2014 if i recall correctly. Do you honestly need to wait another 4 years before you realize that "gid gud scrub" will not help?
The gamemode is losing players and it doesn't attract new players.

I blame bad respawn mechanics and single lane mapdesign. If we had maps with multiple lanes for both sides and selectable dropzones (at least easier to select then via dropcommand) then it wouldn't be an issue.
Look at MW:LL with dynamic conquerable zones and selectable respawn points, that system just works.

I doubt PGI can rework the maps for faction play, i doubt they will take it into consideration for new maps as well. I also doubt that the respawn mechanic will be reworked anywhere near enough to prevent the current gameplans of spawncamping.
Fixing dropships with more damage is something PGI could probably do within a small patch on a short term basis.

justcallme A S H, on 08 January 2019 - 02:36 PM, said:

adding further complexity

Yea.. can't have that in an arcade shooter, rgt?


I think that giving dropships more options to protect dropping mechs will improve the spawn camping issue, it won't solve it, but it will improve it. Especially with indirect fire mentioned in this threat since it is locally (within a certain range) and it can not as easily get dodged as the current laser spam. It also does semi splash damage which can be twisted instead of the current insta core laser damage.

If your team is good enough to push the whole enemy team into their spawnpoints then your team should face more difficulties, especially since dropship fire can be easily ignored when a team is pushing with 8+ mechs. Dropping mechs are also way to vulnerable, unable to more right away and often with back to possible spawn campers (really bad mechanically designed).

A fix, on the other hand, i only see in dropzone reworks and either dynamic or selectable respawn locations.

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 09 January 2019 - 09:36 AM.

[Smutty]

Oh it's a trollpost. You almost got me OP. 7/10

[GweNTLeR]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 09 January 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

Stuff.

Exactly my thoughts buddy, exactly my thoughts. I'd like PGI to give players opportunity to choose weapons of dropships themselves,(like, each player chooses a single weapon of his dropship) but I seriously doubt PGI will do some simple math to make a proper targeting system for weapons with velocity, so we are almost out of choice anyway. That's the sole reason why I mentioned in the poll streaks and light machine guns (since those are only 200+ m weapons somewhat ignorant to velocity except lasers)
If anything can help to improve FP - it is lurms on dropships. PGI will just mess up anything more complex (remember the refresh button? I'm still shocked, I thought it was impossible to **** it up).
To all trolls-pls stop, we are discussing some serious stuff here, trying to improve FP.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 09 January 2019 - 10:40 AM.

[Davegt27]

"You might ask yourself: dafaq is this guy smoking? But it actually makes a lot of sense."

yeah your right

I am thinking you never got headshot by a drop ship

or took fire from dropship firing from close to the gun through the open gate on boreal vault

the dropships have gone through phases of buffs and nerfs
its best to leave them alone

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Davegt27, on 09 January 2019 - 10:43 AM, said:

I am thinking you never got headshot by a drop ship

Like mentioned, dropship laserspam aims at the very center of your mech. I got headshot'd in my ravens more then any other mech since the cockpit location is slightly above the mech's center.
This would not happen as often if the dropship had lrm/streaks and you would actually have time to react to the missile warning.

Davegt27, on 09 January 2019 - 10:43 AM, said:

or took fire from dropship firing from close to the gun through the open gate on boreal vault

Also mentioned, the location of the dropzones isn't very well thought through (much like the whole map designs).

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 09 January 2019 - 11:22 AM.

[Danjo San]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 09 January 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

Look at MW:LL with dynamic conquerable zones and selectable respawn points, that system just works.

but why is MW:LL then such a barren wasteland?

[K O Z A K]

GweNTLeR, on 09 January 2019 - 10:34 AM, said:

Exactly my thoughts buddy, exactly my thoughts. I'd like PGI to give players opportunity to choose weapons of dropships themselves,(like, each player chooses a single weapon of his dropship) but I seriously doubt PGI will do some simple math to make a proper targeting system for weapons with velocity, so we are almost out of choice anyway. That's the sole reason why I mentioned in the poll streaks and light machine guns (since those are only 200+ m weapons somewhat ignorant to velocity except lasers)
If anything can help to improve FP - it is lurms on dropships. PGI will just mess up anything more complex (remember the refresh button? I'm still shocked, I thought it was impossible to **** it up).
To all trolls-pls stop, we are discussing some serious stuff here, trying to improve FP.

3 pages later still can't tell if serious....are you taking up scars original pledge to kill off FP?

[Khalcruth]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 09 January 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

I blame bad respawn mechanics and single lane mapdesign. If we had maps with multiple lanes for both sides and selectable dropzones (at least easier to select then via dropcommand) then it wouldn't be an issue.
Look at MW:LL with dynamic conquerable zones and selectable respawn points, that system just works.

Um. You know that Faction Play uses the normal Quick Play maps, and has for YEARS now, right? Until either clan or IS moves the bar all the way to one side, less than 1 in 5 games uses the siege maps you seem to find so problematic.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Khalcruth, on 09 January 2019 - 08:18 PM, said:

Um. You know that Faction Play uses the normal Quick Play maps, and has for YEARS now, right? Until either clan or IS moves the bar all the way to one side, less than 1 in 5 games uses the siege maps you seem to find so problematic.

I am aware. Quickplay maps haven't been meant for faction play with respawns either. Pushing a dropzone there is as much an issue as it is on siege maps. Caustic, crimson, tourmaline? "push the right dropzone", rings a bell, doesn't it? dynamic or selectable respawns would definitely help there too. Like if you're dropping far left on caustic and you get pushed, either someone is kind (and knowledgeable) enough to put you out of the lance or you lose 1-2 more mechs.

Danjo San, on 09 January 2019 - 01:52 PM, said:

but why is MW:LL then such a barren wasteland?

Because it's a mod for a more then 10 years old game?
Because it's pretty much non profit homebrew?
Literally no advertising?
It's a lot more difficult to control then mwo?
More on the simulator side?

I honestly think that folks who like MWO will love MWLL.

Technically, MWO is better.
Mechanically MWLL is a whole dimension better then MWO.

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 09 January 2019 - 08:58 PM.

[Yondu Udonta]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 09 January 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

If your team is good enough to push the whole enemy team into their spawnpoints then your team should face more difficulties, especially since dropship fire can be easily ignored when a team is pushing with 8+ mechs. Dropping mechs are also way to vulnerable, unable to more right away and often with back to possible spawn campers (really bad mechanically designed).

And what if the enemy team decides to be boring *** ************* and camp their own dropzone for the added benefit of dropship firepower? There is more than one reason why mechs stay at spawn.