90 replies to this topic

[Dee Eight]

Spheroid, on 13 January 2019 - 10:40 AM, said:

Originally they were the Clan equivalent of MRMs, an optional missile system that was neither better or worse than the alternatives and attractive option when missile hardpoints were perhaps limited. They are now found on most Clan mechs and in quantities I find excessive. Quad setups are quite common and quite effective.

When was that origin ? Not sure how a missile that does 3 damage at one range band, 2 at another which is equal to maximum range of the mrm, and 1 and a third which is longer than the range of LRMs is equivalent to a missile that does 1 damage acrosss its single range band.

Quote

The manner in which the damage is applied is quite dangerous as well. Its a simple task to get 600-1000 damage using ATMs. Its not sloppy damage either its quite concentrated. The kill shots are not lucky finishing shots they are large dangerous alphas to the center of the mech.

So ? The LRM80 supernovas or my SSRM18 Shadow Cat build is also capable of 600-1000 damage matches regularly. Then there are folks running around in SRM24 Assassins doing that also. I think its the player putting crosshairs to target mech before firing... not the particular missile type.

Quote

My final criticism is the generous amount of ammo. True it is less than SRMs, but the base amount is only slightly less while having on average a much larger potential for delivered damage. The base amount is large enough that the skill tree ammo boost is significant. I feel such a powerful weapon should run somewhat lean on ammo where shots need to be considered like HGR or LBX20.

That's a straw argument. Different ballistics have different damages per ton of ammo. 10 class autocannons still being the best/most at 230 per ton currently. That's more per ton than 2, 5, or 20 class cannons, any of the gauss options, or any of the machine gun types.

[RickySpanish]

Spheroid, on 13 January 2019 - 10:40 AM, said:

The current prevalence of ATMs is vastly different from the state they were introduced. A series of gameplay changes has built up over that time to make them the preferred missile system instead of an optional one.

Originally they were the Clan equivalent of MRMs, an optional missile system that was neither better or worse than the alternatives and attractive option when missile hardpoints were perhaps limited. They are now found on most Clan mechs and in quantities I find excessive. Quad setups are quite common and quite effective.

When shipped AMS even single systems took quite a bit of their bite off. AMS was cutback, speed was upped, spread was tightened, minimum range reduced and the heat system was overhauled. Other changes involving missile reticle behavior and arc have also come and gone. The environment in which they now operate is greatly changed.

The manner in which the damage is applied is quite dangerous as well. Its a simple task to get 600-1000 damage using ATMs. Its not sloppy damage either its quite concentrated. The kill shots are not lucky finishing shots they are large dangerous alphas to the center of the mech.

My final criticism is the generous amount of ammo. True it is less than SRMs, but the base amount is only slightly less while having on average a much larger potential for delivered damage. The base amount is large enough that the skill tree ammo boost is significant. I feel such a powerful weapon should run somewhat lean on ammo where shots need to be considered like HGR or LBX20.

SRMs are being pushed into a very confined niche, where really they should be the bread and butter of close range builds.


Do you think ATMs are displacing other missile systems? Do you think their popularity is altering average TTK for better or worse?

I swear if you get ATMs nerfed Ima come over there with my now useless VGL posse and gum your face off.

[Sjorpha]

I really haven't noticed that much ATMs, but I might just have missed it.

[Y E O N N E]

RickySpanish, on 13 January 2019 - 11:59 AM, said:

I swear if you get ATMs nerfed Ima come over there with my now useless VGL posse and gum your face off.

The VGL is good at more things than ATMs, dude.

TBQH, requiring one piece of equipment to counter another is very much bad gameplay design.

[Jman5]

I dunno, AMS with skills still brutalize ATMs.

[justcallme A S H]

Y E O N N E, on 13 January 2019 - 11:27 AM, said:

Nothing puts down a push faster than massed ATM fire. Not even DHG is that strong.

Yep. Stare for a second and you're CT cored from a 50-55T mech in a 90T mech, they shread tonnage done well.

Anyway... The rise of ATMs I have absolutely noticed as well. I mean I do play quite a bit so I actually see what's going on rather than make stuff up. Why the increase?

Because a lot of high skill players have been using them, streaming with them etc etc. It's a simple case of monkey see, monkey do. So even the mid skill players are doing it too.
I mean just after my podcast last week with NGNG I saw SNV-As with my LRM build almost every game for 3 days straight. Sometimes there would be 2-3 SNV-As per game for 3-4 games in a row.

That said it does take reasonable skill to USE ATMs as they are a feast of famine weapon for most players. AMS does counter them reasonable well (a single AMS doesn't do much though) and their arc is piss poor and thus limited mechs, IMO, can use them very effectively.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 13 January 2019 - 01:18 PM.

[Luminis]

Didn't notice that many ATMs myself, the lockon homing weapon of choise seem to be lurms still, probably because ATMs are a fair bit harder to use.

justcallme A S H, on 13 January 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

I mean just after my podcast last week with NGNG I saw SNV-As with my LRM build almost every game for 3 days straight. Sometimes there would be 2-3 SNV-As per game for 3-4 games in a row.

So that's on you, huh? Thanks, I guess?

[R Valentine]

There are plenty of situations where ATMs are useless, so no, not really. It's not anyone else's fault you never use that AMS hardpoint.

[justcallme A S H]

Luminis, on 13 January 2019 - 01:36 PM, said:

So that's on you, huh? Thanks, I guess?

It had died down by the weekend, so that was good lol.

I'll wear 3-4 days of blame.

[The Macho Man]

Click through the top players that stream and see vapor eagle with 2x12 1xatm9 and tag. Watch them solo assault mechs with 2 salvos from just outta sight with a few JJ's to lock. Run into more good players in game running the same build and watch them post those 1200+dmg 5kill matches back to back to back.

Of course the answer is to put out a memorandum for every solo pug to equip an AMS because that will happen. They have a missile slot available still so they fit an lrm5 instead. The one guy on your team with arm lasers will shoot the uav down after they finish killing that raven with their ersl 500m out.

It's really not all that bad but I feel better exaggerating it somewhat.

[El Bandito]

Spheroid, on 13 January 2019 - 10:57 AM, said:

My contention is their use has increased over time, indicating an increase in their efficacy. You have not observed this?

Did I stutter? The lock reticle area nerf + Artemis nerf should have made ATMs weaker over time, not the other way around. Perhaps the release of the Vaping Eagle might have boosted the numbers a bit but I haven't seen any troubling amount of them.

If ATM was so godly, then I would see them in FP all the time--since that's where people mass cheese builds. I don't see ATMs in FP much compared to other missiles.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 January 2019 - 03:47 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

I honestly think that ATMs are of their own weapon system. That sweet-spot of 270m is rather limiting it in functioning like other homing weapons.

If you're using it beyond 270m then you might as well use LRMs if you have a clear and open space, i mean for ATM9 doing 18 damage while the LRM20 doing 20 damage for the same ton on top of being better at pushing through AMS, it only makes sense.

The SSRMs are much more reliable since they are bone-seeking which makes them better against lights, and they could reach 360m.

And then versus the standard SRMs -- the ATMs have a minimum-range and stream-fire that makes it loses out on the purposes of SRMs.

As for popularity, I can't say because half the time I can't tell LRMs and ATMs apart while they're homing for me, cause it's unlikely that I happen to lock the enemy as they launch the missiles.

[Funk1777]

It hurts some mechs way worse than others. Like my assassin who's awesome hitboxes are totally negated if you are engaged with someone other than the atm boat. It also punishes teams that are trading in more stationary positions while spread out a bit. I need to find this clip from the other day.

https://clips.twitch...sWombatPanicVis

[tutzdes]

ATMs is the closest thing Clans can have now to low-exposure low-mid range PPFLD. IS has variety of peeps, pin-pont ACs, more accurate SRMs, shorter duration pulses, HGoose. What clans have is either an extremely close range boat-style weapons, higher range weapons with longer "burn" duration and very hot ERPPCs.

For me this weapon takes the niche closest to what I use IS MPLs for. At longer range its utility is pretty close to that of MRM.

It can be pretty devastating if the enemies don't expect it, but if you can't force the LoS it really suffers.

Edited by tutzdes, 13 January 2019 - 04:03 PM.

[InspectorG]

justcallme A S H, on 13 January 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

Yep. Stare for a second and you're CT cored from a 50-55T mech in a 90T mech, they shread tonnage done well.

Anyway... The rise of ATMs I have absolutely noticed as well. I mean I do play quite a bit so I actually see what's going on rather than make stuff up. Why the increase?

Because a lot of high skill players have been using them, streaming with them etc etc. It's a simple case of monkey see, monkey do. So even the mid skill players are doing it too.
I mean just after my podcast last week with NGNG I saw SNV-As with my LRM build almost every game for 3 days straight. Sometimes there would be 2-3 SNV-As per game for 3-4 games in a row.

That said it does take reasonable skill to USE ATMs as they are a feast of famine weapon for most players. AMS does counter them reasonable well (a single AMS doesn't do much though) and their arc is piss poor and thus limited mechs, IMO, can use them very effectively.

Well, that and C-A/SRM is garbage. What else a Clammer gonna use for missiles?

Im still trying to adapt to using ATMs on my Scorch.(i learn slow...and having too much fun in my Ice Box)

[Knuckles OTool]

My Marauder IIC with ATMx48 averages 666 damage a game and I'm not a particularly good player. This is the total average so of course it takes all those games where a skilled light pilot or a rushing brawler finds me and embarrasses me. Or those matches where ecm is stacked or we fight in tall buildings or the enemy is loaded with AMS. I think my next highest is the madcat IIC-B at 500ish.

Edited by Knuckles OTool, 13 January 2019 - 04:19 PM.

[Khobai]

PGI failed miserably at implementing ATMs.

Instead of being a balanced, versatile missile system thats capable at all ranges. They made them a horrendously niche 120m-270m missile system thats completely broken within that niche.

ATMs are the complete opposite of how they should be. When something is the complete oppose of how it should be it means PGI has failed as much as they possibly could.

For ATMs to make sense, the min range on ATMs needs to be removed. But the damage also needs to be significantly lowered (3 per missile is way too much damage). ATMs shouldnt have a min range. Because if the game allowed ammo switching, nobody would use the long range ATM ammo at short range. Theyd use the short range ATM ammo which has no min range. So if PGI is trying to emulate ammo switching by having an averaged ammo type then having a min range makes no sense.

Edited by Khobai, 13 January 2019 - 04:31 PM.

[Jman5]

justcallme A S H, on 13 January 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

That said it does take reasonable skill to USE ATMs as they are a feast of famine weapon for most players. AMS does counter them reasonable well (a single AMS doesn't do much though) and their arc is piss poor and thus limited mechs, IMO, can use them very effectively.

I did a test today of the base value ATMs vs 1 AMS with AMS skills (Overload and Range). Each ATM is different, but 1 AMS was able to knock out 7 ATM-12 missiles which I think is impressive for a 1.5 ton investment. That's 21 out of 36 max damage mitigated.

Not sure what the numbers are vs max velocity skills, but I bet it's still pretty respectable.

[Knuckles OTool]

Jman5, on 13 January 2019 - 04:23 PM, said:

I did a test today of the base value ATMs vs 1 AMS with AMS skills (Overload and Range). Each ATM is different, but 1 AMS was able to knock out 7 ATM-12 missiles which I think is impressive for a 1.5 ton investment. That's 21 out of 36 max damage mitigated.

Not sure what the numbers are vs max velocity skills, but I bet it's still pretty respectable.

Cool test but it probably depends on the range theyre fired and the positioning of the ams mech vs it and if any other missiles are near. I doubt anyone carries a single atm12 though so really it would be 7 missiles out of a 33 missile salvo negating 21 damage out of a total of 99. Or 21 damage out of the 144 alpha from my scorch. A triple ams kitfox would negate 21 of those missiles using the same positioning you did but would still likely lose at least one ST to the 81 points of damage that made it through.

Edited by Knuckles OTool, 13 January 2019 - 04:40 PM.

[LordNothing]

atms unlike most missiles require you thread the needle to get optimal damage. so i dont have a problem when they actually do what they are supposed to do and kill something close in.

though to be fair i like mrms a lot more. if clans had them i wouldnt bother with atms at all.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 January 2019 - 04:44 PM.