23 replies to this topic

[Natred]

For example take the Novacat - D Varriant
Comes stock with 1 lb 10 and 3 heavy large lasers
with the heavy large hsl +1 quirk you should be able to fire 3 of them with out heat penalties right??? Which is the whole point of the HSL +1 quirk

To test this quirk I took the Nova Cat D into Crimsom Straight Testing Grounds

when you fire 1 heavy large laser heat goes up to 16 percent heat
when you fire 2 heavy large lasers it goes up to 45 percent heat
when you fire 3 heavy large lasers it goes up to 73 percent heat

16 plus 16 is 32 percent right?? NOT 45 percent
16 plus 16 plus 16 is 48 percent. NOT 73 percent

Than you want to change quirks on mechs for example the hunchback 4p based of this broken quirk. NO

So what I am seeing here is that there is a heat penalty being applied to heavy large lasers when you use two of them together. Pretty sketchy by not letting players know this in the mechlab like every other weapon that has heat penalties applied to them.

[Y E O N N E]

Try simultaneously firing 3 HLL on another 'Mech with the same count of DHS and same skills and let us know what you find.

[El Bandito]

Too tired to write in detail, but I am very certain that someone else will show you with math just why that makes sense. Has to do with fixed cooling rate of your heatsinks.

[Bombast]

You generate heat as you fire, and you cool it as you generate it. This is why you can often fire one of a cool weapon while staying at 0% heat, but if you fire many you will spike. So your first laser will always seem cooler than it is.

Edited by Bombast, 20 January 2019 - 10:04 AM.

[Natred]

my fully skilled novacat d uses 3 large and heat jumps up to 71 percent when firing all 3 at the same time. 14 percent when firing one. still 14 x 3 does not add up to 71 percent.

[Xiphias]

Natred, on 20 January 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:

For example take the Novacat - D Varriant
Comes stock with 1 lb 10 and 3 heavy large lasers
with the heavy large hsl +1 quirk you should be able to fire 3 of them with out heat penalties right??? Which is the whole point of the HSL +1 quirk

To test this quirk I took the Nova Cat D into Crimsom Straight Testing Grounds

when you fire 1 heavy large laser heat goes up to 16 percent heat
when you fire 2 heavy large lasers it goes up to 45 percent heat
when you fire 3 heavy large lasers it goes up to 73 percent heat

16 plus 16 is 32 percent right?? NOT 45 percent
16 plus 16 plus 16 is 48 percent. NOT 73 percent

Than you want to change quirks on mechs for example the hunchback 4p based of this broken quirk. NO

So what I am seeing here is that there is a heat penalty being applied to heavy large lasers when you use two of them together. Pretty sketchy by not letting players know this in the mechlab like every other weapon that has heat penalties applied to them.

Bombast, on 20 January 2019 - 10:04 AM, said:

You generate heat as you fire, and you cool it as you generate it. This is why you can often fire one of a cool weapon while staying at 0% heat, but if you fire many you will spike. So your first laser will always seem cooler than it is.

45 - 16 = 29
73 - 45 = 28

So the jump from 2 to 3 is the same as from 1 to 2, ergo no ghost heat.

So the only shot that isn't matching that trend is the first shot (16%) which as Bombast explained is due to dissipating heat while firing.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Bombast, on 20 January 2019 - 10:04 AM, said:

You generate heat as you fire, and you cool it as you generate it. This is why you can often fire one of a cool weapon while staying at 0% heat, but if you fire many you will spike. So your first laser will always seem cooler than it is.

Xiphias, on 20 January 2019 - 10:08 AM, said:

45 - 16 = 29
73 - 45 = 28

So the jump from 2 to 3 is the same as from 1 to 2, ergo no ghost heat.

So the only shot that isn't matching that trend is the first shot (16%) which as Bombast explained is due to dissipating heat while firing.

Quoting for emphasis

[Spheroid]

The HSL quirk is working. Its very simple to test. Take the stock Nova Cat-D from the store and alpha the heavy lasers. Run the same test with a random pod swapped out. For instance the head. Without the set of eight quirk the heat spike is very noticeable.

On caustic you go from about 75% well into the red line. The visual increase in the heat bar is exactly what one would expect from the percentage heat increase caused by ghost heat(i.e. three equals four). What are you contesting?

Edited by Spheroid, 20 January 2019 - 01:41 PM.

[NRP]

Spheroid, on 20 January 2019 - 10:30 AM, said:

What exactly are you contesting?

I think he's saying it's still very hot in West Texas.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Spheroid, on 20 January 2019 - 10:30 AM, said:

What are you contesting?

math

[Nightbird]

Tanner: 17:28

Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt

[justcallme A S H]

Xiphias, on 20 January 2019 - 10:08 AM, said:

45 - 16 = 29
73 - 45 = 28

So the jump from 2 to 3 is the same as from 1 to 2, ergo no ghost heat.

So the only shot that isn't matching that trend is the first shot (16%) which as Bombast explained is due to dissipating heat while firing.

Exactly this. It is working because if you ate the ghostheat from 3 HLL (without the quirk)... That's a shutdown at 60 heat vs 48 heat with the HSL+1 quirk.

Anyway I've run the Mech - Gauss/3HLL, it's definately working as I can fire twice on cooldown IIRC on the mech.

[Jackal Noble]

Just because it is working, doesn't make it a less shite build

[Y E O N N E]

Jackal Noble, on 20 January 2019 - 02:23 PM, said:

Just because it is working, doesn't make it a less shite build

Kind've not the point, though. The point is we have OP going REEE over something that is working exactly as defined because he thinks it isn't working as defined.

[justcallme A S H]

Jackal Noble, on 20 January 2019 - 02:23 PM, said:

Just because it is working, doesn't make it a less shite build

It's not the best build/mech - I've still managed to have a decent few games in it. It actually requires you to pay a bit more attention/work a bit harder to have a good match.

I don't mind that.

[Jackal Noble]

Y E O N N E, on 20 January 2019 - 02:24 PM, said:

Kind've not the point, though. The point is we have OP going REEE over something that is working exactly as defined because he thinks it isn't working as defined.

Right, I just feel like the gain by having that third HLL just really isn't worth the heat. That said HLL's have rarely been my go to, even when they were all the rage.

[HammerMaster]

+1 makes you free from ghost heat.
NOT FREE FROM HEAT.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Natred, on 20 January 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:

For example take the Novacat - D Varriant
Comes stock with 1 lb 10 and 3 heavy large lasers
with the heavy large hsl +1 quirk you should be able to fire 3 of them with out heat penalties right??? Which is the whole point of the HSL +1 quirk

To test this quirk I took the Nova Cat D into Crimsom Straight Testing Grounds

when you fire 1 heavy large laser heat goes up to 16 percent heat
when you fire 2 heavy large lasers it goes up to 45 percent heat
when you fire 3 heavy large lasers it goes up to 73 percent heat

16 plus 16 is 32 percent right?? NOT 45 percent
16 plus 16 plus 16 is 48 percent. NOT 73 percent

Than you want to change quirks on mechs for example the hunchback 4p based of this broken quirk. NO

So what I am seeing here is that there is a heat penalty being applied to heavy large lasers when you use two of them together. Pretty sketchy by not letting players know this in the mechlab like every other weapon that has heat penalties applied to them.

I'm currently looking at a Nova Cat build with 3 HLL, 1 Gauss w/ 3 tons of ammo, and 22 DHS. It's got 56 total heat cap and dissipates 4.84 heat per second. Let's assume no skills, no movement in a heat neutral map.

One HLL generates 16 heat over 1.55 seconds, but during that time the heatsinks are also still cooling, dissipating 7.502 heat after 1.55 seconds. This means after 1 laser is fired, you're at 8.498 heat, which is 15.175% of your heat capacity

Firing 2 HLLs generates twice the heat, but the heatsinks are still dissipating at the same rate of 7.502 over 1.55 seconds. This takes you to 24.498 heat (32 - 7.502), or 43.75% of your capacity.

Firing 3 HLLs leaves you with 40.498 heat, or 72.31% of your capacity.

The math checks out.

[Koniving]

Natred, on 20 January 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:

For example take the Novacat - D Varriant
Comes stock with 1 lb 10 and 3 heavy large lasers
with the heavy large hsl +1 quirk you should be able to fire 3 of them with out heat penalties right??? Which is the whole point of the HSL +1 quirk

To test this quirk I took the Nova Cat D into Crimsom Straight Testing Grounds

when you fire 1 heavy large laser heat goes up to 16 percent heat
when you fire 2 heavy large lasers it goes up to 45 percent heat
when you fire 3 heavy large lasers it goes up to 73 percent heat

16 plus 16 is 32 percent right?? NOT 45 percent
16 plus 16 plus 16 is 48 percent. NOT 73 percent

Than you want to change quirks on mechs for example the hunchback 4p based of this broken quirk. NO

So what I am seeing here is that there is a heat penalty being applied to heavy large lasers when you use two of them together. Pretty sketchy by not letting players know this in the mechlab like every other weapon that has heat penalties applied to them.

Its worth noting something here, you heat and how much you heat up will not equal percentages.

Without getting into the stats of the weapon, assume for a moment the burn time is 1.5 seconds.

1 HSL for 16 as you put it, burns for 1.5 seconds to build up 16 heat.
Your mech cools (lets assume 10 DHS) at a rate of 2 heat per second.
16 - 3 (1.5 seconds of cooling) = 13.
16*2 = 32. 32 - 3 (1.5 seconds of cooling) is 29.
16*3 = 48. 48 - 3 (1.5 seconds of cooling) is 45.


Note again I'm not digging up the stats for the weapon but just using the number 16 and cooling for 10 DHS for this example.

But for 10 DHS, your threshold is 50.
So 13 would actually be 26%
29 would be 58%
And finally 45 would be 90%.

See where the folly of using the percentage rests?

We haven't even gotten into the difference of ghost heat yet, but already nothing would add up even before applying it if you're going by the percentage you've heated up.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

Koniving, on 20 January 2019 - 07:15 PM, said:

Its worth noting something here, you heat and how much you heat up will not equal percentages.

Well good to know that little number beside my heat bar was a figment of my imagination all this time!