47 replies to this topic

[D V Devnull]

Alright... I didn't get to posting my primary thoughts about LRM PTS v2.1 as of yet. But now here I am, and here I post with what sticks out at me. I'll start with the biggest items first, which are...

• Missile Spread, Chain-Fire Too Wide vs. Grouped -- Needs Fixing for certain...
  I've created a Bug Report about this in the PTS Feedback Board area, and the problem is also present on the Live Server Client as well. It took this specific LRM PTS v2.1 to find it, strangely enough. I don't understand why we're widening a Chain-Fired Volley, when it's the Grouped Volleys that are making people complain about LRMageddon. Sure, it might be nice to get off an Emergency Missile Alpha, but it still doesn't mean that Chain-Fire should be spread so wide as to render it being a less-worthy Option by comparison. Even further, if someone launches a barrage of Smaller Launchers (say, 4xLRM5 or 2xLRM10, or other such combinations) all at once, it should NOT result in a Spread that's more Narrow than a single Larger Launcher (say, a LRM20) that's firing a count of Missiles equal to all those Smaller Launchers added up. Otherwise the Larger Launcher is devalued by comparsion with the Smaller Launcher Set, putting a Weapon to pasture out of the entire lineup. If we're looking at making LRMs more of a DPS-Type Weapon, killing Chain-Fire Spread goes the opposite direction of that.
  
• Active Sensor System still NEEDED for MWO -- I've written the proposal, WITH Proper Rule Set...
  I'm sure someone was sitting around, thinking I could never get around to writing that. Think again... No, seriously, think again! I have indeed finally written the proposal out, in proper detail with everything my mind could pack in one go. I've even gone so far as to design it for virtually any and every type of Pilot in the Player Base, so that basically nobody has been left out. This particular Equipment is so badly needed for MWO that I've gone into detail on Cost/Risk/Capability/Benefit/Restrictions/Limitations/Reward, and went so far as to make sure it could absolutely NEVER be Exploited or made OverPowered. It even has to be clicked from "Passive" to "Active" to gain access to 99% of it's capabilities, but comes at Severe Danger to do so. The only thing I could not cover is what Additional Rewards in terms of (C-Bills) and/or XP that PGI could/should attach to it, but I sense we already have enough of that in MWO to utilize and apply. Well, that and I wasn't sure about whether or not to make it capable of displaying Missile Travels on the MiniMap in the HUD's bottom-center area, so that may be the one thing I've missed in the Proposal's Design Post over there. Although, is CryEngine even capable of tracking and/or displaying mapping of that?
  
• Missile Spread when using Personal Lock's Target Decay -- Should NOT go wide
  I've mentioned this before, but if someone gets the Lock all by theirself, and has no Teammates assisting with it, they still have to deal with trying to maintain the Lock all on their own. They're still at risk to a rear/flanking attack on them from having to keep that CT and Reticle pointed at the Enemy Target which they happen to be trying to hit. Having the Missile Spread go wide on a Fully-Personal Lock when behind Cover at launch for an Altered Angle, when it's running on their own Target Decay, is effectively unfair to the person who got their own Lock and needed to implement a Hit-and-Run Strategy. They still have to poke out again to keep that Target Decay from running out, which means the Enemy Team is going to get extra chances on them, so it's only equally fair to not widen the Missile Spread on a Fully-Personal Lock where someone finally fires from behind Cover.

...and other than those, there's still additional outstanding issues that I've also talked about in previous LRM PTS Threads, but don't have as much to add right now, such as with...

• TAG Functions -- It should still get a small/minor boost on Lock Speed, since it is assisting your Sensors to get the Lock
  
• Initial and/or Allowed Locking Angle -- STILL needs Some Widening... Face-Hug Exploiting of the Lock Angle in general should NOT be a thing!

...plus there's the item which I could not properly test during the PTS run, or did not find a way to test while I was on the PTS Game Client...

• Missile Projectile Health vs. AMS -- A Risky Slope... Be careful here...
  While it may be good to make sure that Small Weapons like the LRM5 and ATM3 are not made totally worthless by Single AMS units, it can be a slippery situation too. It's as equally dangerous in the other direction to give Missiles fired from these Smaller Launchers too large of a Health Pool to survive from. I'm thinking we don't want to end up accidentally creating any 9xLRM5/9xATM3 monsters, problematically over-efficient LRM10/ATM6 Barrages, or any mixes thereof. Why? Because it would very likely devalue Larger Missile Launchers, as well as possibly create some OverPowered Shielded Missile Bursts that then result in creating another complaint-loaded LRMageddon that wasn't intended.

...followed with the things in this LRM PTS Series Development that did relax my nerves...

• Finally Avoiding the IDF Spread Nerf -- Good!
  This is rather good news in the scope of LRM PTS v2.1, given the other things that will be affecting LRMs in general anyway. Plus, it stays away from the Issue with dealing Accidental Team Damage when one's Team goes needlessly Face-Hugging on an Enemy's Mech on the battlefields. Particularly however, as long as those with Medical Disabilities are kept in mind while working on Game Balance, should anything from the LRM PTS Series gets implemented into the Live MWO Game Client, then I'll be reasonably okay with whatever first steps are transferred over there. I get that making anything better and/or proper takes time, and that it will take multiple steps to develop Weapon Changes into a final form.
  
• NARC Ability Boost on Spread -- Likely Needed...
  I had this feeling for a long time that NARC had been left undervalued. While it could definitely be fired too fast before in some cases, that was about all it had running for it. While not too important, it might be worth giving the Baseline Cooldown a small Buff back up to only 6 Seconds between firings. But, the Change to add Spread Assist is a very good move, and gives NARC use and value in a new way. Hopefully more people will find a want to use NARC, should anything from the LRM PTS Series be added to the Live MWO Game Client for normal gameplay.

...to which with all that said, I've temporarily exhausted my mind. Some of the LRM PTS Series is missing something, some needs work, and then there's good things to be said of it so far. I'll have to come back and post more if anything else dawns on my currently drained brain. But, this LRM PTS v2.1 is definitely a good First Draft that could be added to the Live MWO Servers, when compared to the versions that came before it being rather overall lacking. Better described, this latest LRM PTS v2.1 version definitely maintains accessibility of the game to the masses (including those with Medical Disabilities), and stays away from trying to dump any part of the Player Base, which will lead to the extended life of MWO for all. Simply put, I can only hope that any changes which reach the Live MWO Servers in regard to the LRMs/ATMs, as well as anything to do with TAG/NARC/UAVs, and anything connecting any of that to AMS, all come reasonably balanced and don't need too many extra changes to put them In-Line with everything else.

~Mr. D. V. "Here you are... That's my mental impression of LRM PTS v2.1 for your reading." Devnull





(p.s.: Skipped the Emotes again... Trying to use a bunch on long posts just has all kinds of trouble linked to it.)

(p.p.s.: I just noticed that other poster while I was typing this. I'll have to get back to them shortly. Hopefully, I haven't missed anything else because I somehow missed another alert... if I missed one...)

[D V Devnull]

Dregian Bloodwrath, on 19 February 2019 - 03:22 PM, said:

all i will say is if lrms gets buffed even more ill quit playing all together as lrms are now and every second mech now being a lrm bout a lot of the the fun has been taken out of the game already if pgi turns mwo into lrmsonline .. this game will die real quick.. every day i come across more and more ppl complaining about the amount of lrms in battle.. its gotten to the point that even ams is useless against all the lrms .. and no use hiding doesnt help if get hit by lrms from all directions

Here's a few questions for you, all intended in a Positive Constructive Manner...

• Is any of that LRM Fire possibly coming from your own Team not watching their Weapons Fire?
  
• Did you go and Face-Hug one of the Enemy Mechs because you were trying to take the Target totally for yourself, and not let Your Team lend you the help you really needed in order to survive, all because you were thinking only of yourself, instead of actually thinking of success with Your Team overall?
  
• Did anyone else spend out the Tonnage to equip an AMS to help both themself and their Team?
  
• Did that Team which you were with go 'Nascar'ing about, not checking your opposite flank?
  
• Did the Team which you were on take the time to Communicate and Coordinate?
  
• Did the Enemy Team perhaps possibly Out-Position you with a Better Strategy?
  
• Is it at all possible that the Enemy Team's LRMs were only really launched by just 1 or 2 Mechs that were taking the time to repeatedly Re-Position themselves, and make it look like they were a lot more?
  
• Did any of the Teams which you were with even try to get within 180 Meters of the Enemy Team, which would have shut down the LRM Damage by quite a bit, if not entirely, and make those LRM'ers into easy pickings?
  
• Could there be a chance that what hit you was NOT Pure LRMs, but instead a Mix of LRM & ATM together in Combined Alpha Firing against you?

...because if you can end up possibly saying "Yes" (or at least anything that's NOT a "No") to the 1st/2nd/4th/6th/7th/9th, or "No" to the 3rd/5th/8th of those Questions, then the Real Truth is that you may need to take better steps to get your Team to actually work together like they should have in the first place without your nudging. Just managing to get a Team to actually work together would have saved a number of my own Rounds that fell into Miserable Defeats. If they still don't want to get their acts together and use TeamWork & Strategy to beat the Enemy's Mechs into the pavement, that's then on them even if you're frustrated, and you can write that Defeat off as not one to care about anymore.


Now that said, I should note that your post gives me the feeling like you may have failed to read through a rather large number of Previous Posts and the Threads which they're in. (My apologies if you have actually read those and I'm unaware.) This particular LRM PTS Series is not just a bunch of Buffs to LRMs/ATMs only. In fact, it so happens that there WOULD be some underlying Baseline Nerfs, such as to Heat/'Ghost Heat'/'Lock Times'/'AMS Vulnerability & Viability'/'Possible Support Need Requirements', should anything from this reach the Live MWO Game Servers at all. Further, what is in the LRM PTS Series aims to END the unintended/unwanted LRMageddons which we're both tired of. I'm tired of it because of hearing the endless complaining from people that don't use AMS/ECM/TAG/NARC/Cover, Communication & Strategy, and any of the Weaponry which Out-Ranges LRMs by a rather fair margin. Obviously, I can tell you're tired of it because too many people have managed to Abuse LRMs at the expense of people who won't work together, and you're caught up in the backwash. On top of this however, and a Third Side to the matter, I've been hearing from some of those who are Medically Disabled, and they're really sick of LRMs (and other Lock-On Missiles) getting repeatedly nerfed to death, when those people are not able to move smoothly like a normal person. They're as equally threatening to quit if things get any worse for them, and I rather sincerely can not blame them at all (as it would be wrong to force them to pasture, given that BattleTech Lore gives precedence to their presence), as it so happens that we need to not ruin Accessibility of the MWO Game to the Player Base in general anyway. Then I tripped upon this Bug which I have Reported, and it may stand in the way of making any proper changes to LRMs/ATMs/AMS/TAG/NARC (and other things in the Missile Category) until it has been fixed properly, because it has been making it possible for those with Super-High Skill Levels to Exploit LRM Spread (and possibly other Missiles) with no real limit. In fact, I'm heavily vexed that they're getting to slam off with Large Alphas, while I was trying to follow the intent by PGI and others that LRMs/ATMs/etc. were all meant to be used in a DPS-Style Format of firing. It so happens that Missile Alphas have been getting a better Spread, while Chain-Fire was getting quote-unquote "shafted into the dirt", and if the Bug gets the Fix which (rather frankly) it needs, plus LRM PTS v2.1's Design State gets used properly, then the LRMageddon which we're all angry about should end up ceasing, or at least be Seriously Negated for some time to come. So now that I've outlined all that to you, is there any chance I can get your Support in 'Like's to my posts in these LRM PTS Series Threads, and your willingness to help with Constructive Fixing of this mess so MWO survives for everyone? That's the final Goal which I'm ultimately aiming for myself (even thinking ahead to times when myself and others will have to also live with being part of the ranks of the Medically Disabled), and I don't personally use Missiles all the time either. Don't worry, I know what it is to get ganked by Missiles, even though I usually will not get finally killed by them, so I understand how you feel.


~Mr. D. V. "gets how you feel about LRMs & Other Missiles, and knows what we both need to reach for" Devnull

[D V Devnull]

Alright... It has been a few days, but I hope those PGI Developers who read this thread are still checking in? I realized that in my last posting, I was rather quite remiss in failing to make any remarks regarding underlying Heat Mechanics on the Lock-On Missile Weapons. Please let me fix that now...

• Baseline Firing Heat -- Reasonable, does not blow Chain-Firing...
  If heard correctly before that Lock-On Missile Weaponry, particularly LRMs, was supposed to be more of a DPS Weapon, then even if this got about 5% hotter than LRM PTS v2.1, things should be alright. Just don't make it too much hotter, because Chain-Firing these should never end up feeling like a trap to the Player Base in general. No reason to throw away low-level general usage of Lock-On Missile Weapons, right? Also, for useful accessibility of MWO, please avoid messing up those who particularly have Medical Disabilities (which I'm starting to feel myself slipping in the direction of becoming, unfortunately...) who depend on weaponry like this to even be able to play at all. I really don't want to see them give up over the changes from the LRM PTS Series becoming part of the Live MWO Server gameplay.
  
• Ghost Heat -- Seemed low to me... Go ahead and turn this up a little...
  I'm actually NOT kidding with this one. It probably needs to bump up about 10% beyond what I experienced on the LRM PTS v2.1, simply put. If somebody launches 6xLRM5, 5xLRM10, 4xLRM15, or 3xLRM20 (with hopefully reasonable similarities for ATMs... like 5xATM3, 3[or 4]xATM6, 2[or 3]xATM9, and 2xATM12... I suspect these are already the Current Limits for ATM Ghost Heat happening?) all at once, they should only be able to do it about twice and then have to back off for a few. Bigger setups with much Larger Tube Counts really shouldn't even be able to get that much off constantly. Otherwise, we're going to have some OverPowered Builds that get annoyingly Abused/Exploited at the expense of literally Everyone (including the Medically Disabled), and that has to be AVOIDED at all costs. I agree there should be fun for everyone too, and not a miserable quote-unquote "Next LRMageddon" that came with a mix of ATMs in the firing pattern.

...and I'll just have to hope that you folks at PGI are still reading this Thread, in order to take the Community's thoughts into consideration for the March Live Server Update that's coming soon enough. Again, sorry that I didn't get this info conveyed before regarding the LRM PTS Series with how overloaded my mind was. Things slip my mind sometimes, and this was accidentally one of them, even though I did not mean for it to happen like this.

~Mr. D. V. "finally posting their thoughts on Baseline Heat and Ghost Heat for the Developer's use" Devnull

[Grus]

6 lrm 10 maddogs... nuff said...

[D V Devnull]

Grus, on 24 February 2019 - 12:45 PM, said:

6 lrm 10 maddogs... nuff said...

Tch... I can't mount anymore than 3xC-LRM10 right now on an MDD without Heat Issues already. Some serious TeamWork would have to be involved to make 6xMDDs with 6xC-LRM10 on each and every one have any chance to work at all. I would be very surprised if future changes to MWO's gameplay still allow proper TeamWork, and then punish those who won't play together as a Team properly.

Perhaps PGI needs to introduce harsh penalties for letting your Teammates die? Or maybe some End-Of-Round Bonuses for each and every Teammate that you keep alive, paying more for having more Teammates alive?

~D. V. "commenting on that MDD setup, and leaving PGI an idea to reinforce TeamWork with" Devnull

[Mad Dog Morgan]

210m/s LRMs is beyond any reason of doubt an entry error. No sane person would put LRMs with such high velocities. It can’t be real, right?

Surely they meant to put 120 m/s for a lockon weapon.

[MovinTarget]

Mad Dog Morgan, on 04 March 2019 - 03:13 PM, said:

210m/s LRMs is beyond any reason of doubt an entry error. No sane person would put LRMs with such high velocities. It can’t be real, right?

Surely they meant to put 120 m/s for a lockon weapon.

This is the team that brought you the 1000% cool down quirk on the Quickdraw...

[Reno Blade]

Mad Dog Morgan, on 04 March 2019 - 03:13 PM, said:

210m/s LRMs is beyond any reason of doubt an entry error. No sane person would put LRMs with such high velocities. It can’t be real, right?

Surely they meant to put 120 m/s for a lockon weapon.

Not much of a difference really, 190 or 210, will hardly be noticable.
You will still see between 4 and 5 ful seconds for your long range engagements.

Note: all other missiles are faster and all ballistics are much faster (AC20 being the slowest with over 600m/s).

While I understand the fear a rainy day can bring you, the changes given here are nothing major, in my opinion.

The main reason we have Lurmageddon issues is the boating and many people trying it out at the same time, so you get rained by 8 mechs with LRMs instead of 0-4 mechs, not the small changes to velocity, ammo or heat from the last patches.