116 replies to this topic

[Anjian]

Did anyone say 'wide'?


Get used to the program, called future trends in mech design.

[Dogstar]

Nightbird, on 15 February 2019 - 02:57 PM, said:

So much smaller than the Awesome

If this is accurate then that's a ridiculously bad bit of volume scaling from PGI - did they forget it's an 80 tonner and scale it against the 50 tonners? Or are they just incompetent as usual?

[Brizna]

Look at the bright side guys, being so wide is going to make it OP at blocking fire to the generators in FW.

[ImperialKnight]

It has smaller frontal profile than a Cataphract and Awesome, so I don't see what's wrong with it. Except for PGi throwing their own "volumetric normalisation" out the window

[kapusta11]

So it looks like people expected WHM IIC to be slightly bigger but still relatively agile mech. Jeez, it's almost as if people expected it to be an 80 ton mech!

[Koniving]

Comically funny, is we're getting the Warhammer IIC, which from what we've seen is the smallest 80 ton mech in the game..

And an entire thread about how wide it is.

[Antares102]

Koniving, on 16 February 2019 - 03:21 AM, said:

Comically funny, is we're getting the Warhammer IIC, which from what we've seen is the smallest 80 ton mech in the game..

And an entire thread about how wide it is.

This thread was made before it was clear how wide it is, i.e. before the comparisons were released.
The first impression of its size with volumetric scaling in mind got folks worried.
PGI obviously messed up their own volumetric scaling so here we are.

Edited by Antares102, 16 February 2019 - 03:42 AM.

[R E X I OS]

Anjian, on 15 February 2019 - 10:35 PM, said:

Did anyone say 'wide'?


Get used to the program, called future trends in mech design.

Looks like a Thanatos XT.

[Nyte Kitsune]

Stop picking on the Warhammer IIc, it looks fine, actually I rather like it, though we'll see on Tues how much I like it after piloting it. Honestly I'm more curious to see what the Marauder II is going to look like rendered

[Steel Raven]

As long as the Wammy IIC doesn't have the same hit boxes as the Awesome, it's a decent parallel. It won't have the mobility of the Gargoyle because that will kill the Gargoyle. Fair? No but 80 toners have been getting the short end of the stick for awhile now.

[Koniving]

Antares102, on 16 February 2019 - 03:35 AM, said:

This thread was made before it was clear how wide it is, i.e. before the comparisons were released.
The first impression of its size with volumetric scaling in mind got folks worried.
PGI obviously messed up their own volumetric scaling so here we are.

Good point; thought it popped up last night. That's what I get for not checking dates.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Steel Raven, on 16 February 2019 - 08:05 AM, said:

As long as the Wammy IIC doesn't have the same hit boxes as the Awesome, it's a decent parallel. It won't have the mobility of the Gargoyle because that will kill the Gargoyle. Fair? No but 80 toners have been getting the short end of the stick for awhile now.

It didn't need to have the mobility of Mr. Gargles- that isn't the issue. The GAR quite rightly has high mobility stats (*edit- the Zeus is actually slightly quicker); it has the most limitations to work around. The WHM-IIC just needed to have better mobility and twist than the 85, 90, 95, and 100-ton assaults it's going to be competing with. It is significantly weaker than at least one 'Mech in each of those brackets, and the implied mobility advantage of an 80-ton 'Mech with a high engine cap was the only thing recommending it over the otherwise superior MAD-IIC and MCII.

The Charger and Hatamoto-Chi released with mostly reasonable mobility and torso twist stats for their size. The Zeus and Victor were eventually brought back up to viability with mobility and durability buffs. Mr. Gargles ended up getting a pile of buffs in compensation for all his shortcomings. PGI can do right by 80-tonners... when they choose to. There really shouldn't have been any reason to expect that the WhamIIC would end up getting the Awesome treatment instead.

Except, y'know, even the Awesome has a better twist range- and acceleration. Literally the only other 80-tonner that's as weak in acceleration as the WhamIIC is the Charger hero. None of the other 80-tonners have less than a 90-degree twist.

I'd have used the Hatamoto's mobility stats as a baseline for chassis mobility, since its two faster variants share the same 385 engine cap. That's ~20 for accel and 19 for decel, 45 for turn rate... which still gives the GAR (~33, 25, 65) a comfortable advantage. Instead of 75+30 twist reach, give it the more common 90+20 profile- or, if the GAR really needs an edge there too, then 85+20 instead. 90 degrees/sec of twist rate would make it comparable to most of the 80-tonners (the GAR has 108, so it'd still be quicker).

75 degrees of twist is just too damn low for an 80-tonner, especially one with a flat frontal profile. It'll be far too easy to pick apart as is.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 16 February 2019 - 10:47 AM.

[Grus]

Just seen the comparison photos. Its looking promising, but dem shoulders though.

[LT. HARDCASE]

PGI gave it poor mobility because they screwed up the scaling (it's way too small) and wouldn't be able to deny the fact.

[Grus]

https://goo.gl/images/LyEFoy

Still have to show your entire torso to fire off all your weapons.

[Jackal Noble]

food for thought... you guys haven't seen how deep the WHIIC is yet, only front profiles.

[Antares102]

Jackal Noble, on 16 February 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

food for thought... you guys haven't seen how deep the WHIIC is yet, only front profiles.

You make me nervous mate

[kapusta11]

Jackal Noble, on 16 February 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

food for thought... you guys haven't seen how deep the WHIIC is yet, only front profiles.

It's nothing unusual.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Steel Raven, on 16 February 2019 - 08:05 AM, said:

As long as the Wammy IIC doesn't have the same hit boxes as the Awesome, it's a decent parallel. It won't have the mobility of the Gargoyle because that will kill the Gargoyle. Fair? No but 80 toners have been getting the short end of the stick for awhile now.

I don't think anyone expected it to be like the Gargoyle because to be honest because its agility is kind of Gargoyle's niche. On the other hand, I think all of us wanted it to have more agility than a typical 95-100 ton Assault mech, you know, maybe just the agility of a typical 80 ton Assault mech or something. Honestly I am getting tried of seeing clan mechs neutered just because they are clan mechs. The Warhammer IIC is just going to feel stiff, unresponsive and restricted and that is just not much fun to play.

[Grus]

Angel of Annihilation, on 16 February 2019 - 11:32 AM, said:

I don't think anyone expected it to be like the Gargoyle because to be honest because its agility is kind of Gargoyle's niche. On the other hand, I think all of us wanted it to have more agility than a typical 95-100 ton Assault mech, you know, maybe just the agility of a typical 80 ton Assault mech or something. Honestly I am getting tried of seeing clan mechs neutered just because they are clan mechs. The Warhammer IIC is just going to feel stiff, unresponsive and restricted and that is just not much fun to play.

Speaking of, the mobility stats are out... not looking good.

WrathOfDeadguy said;

"Awesome:
Accel 15.42 (20.03 for PB)
Decel 17.50 (19.38 for PB)
Turn 40.11 (45.26 for PB)
Twist 100 degrees at 72 degrees/sec. (81 degrees/sec for PB)

Zeus:
Accel 36.17
Decel 28.75
Turn 57.87
Twist 103.5 degrees at 103.50 degrees/sec.

Warhammer IIC:
Accel 13.11
Decel 16.55
Turn 37.81
Twist 75 degrees at 72 degrees/sec.

So the Warhammer IIC is marginally slower than the Awesome, and pathetically slower than the Zeus.

Interestingly, there is one variant of one other 80-tonner that has nearly identical mobility stats to the WHM-IIC. It's the Charger hero, Number Seven, which has about the same acceleration (13.11), deceleration (13.56), and turn rate (37.82)... but better twist range (100) and twist rate (81). The other 80-tonners, including all other Charger variants, have stats somewhere between the extremes of the Awesome and Zeus; only the Gargoyle stands out with the best turn rate (65.32) and twist rate (108) but slightly slower accel and decel compared to the Zeus.

So... yeah, it really is that bad. The WHM-IIC is quite literally the slowest and least flexible 80-tonner, by a factor of two and then some compared to the fastest 80-ton 'Mechs. "

Thank you Wrath for posting this.