87 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

The point of the original thread was that there was very little diversity between many of the variants and in most cases your going to be running the same exact build with little variation. The way to diversify that is to quirk the mech so that it leads you to using a different build, example, a -10% to HLL heat, -10% Cooldown to HLLs on one variant and on another, maybe +10% Pulse Laser range, -5% Pulse Laser Heat, etc. The very minimal quirks on that they did add, really does nothing to lead you to use specific systems on a specific variant so with that being the case, why the hell own multiple variants?

For example, the IIC and the IIC-3 have virtually the same hardpoints and I strongly doubt many people are going to use the single missile hardpoint on the IIC so you basically have the exact same mech however the quirks don't do enough to really distinguish between the two so most likely I will be selling one of the variants right out of the gate. I mean why spend the time, c-bills and effort to skill up two mostly identical mechs? That is kind of my point.

As to the direction the tread when in, yeah I am super disappointed in how restrictive they are making the movement profile of this mech. I mean I understand it is a Clan Battlemech and all but its hardpoints aren't exactly in the best locations and honestly it just isn't fun playing a mech that has such a stiff movement profile. It just seems they went over the top. I also propose that the Warhammer IIC be re-named to the Nerfhammer IIC cause that appears to be the direction PGI went with things.

[FupDup]

Angel of Annihilation, on 16 February 2019 - 12:07 PM, said:

The point of the original thread was that there was very little diversity between many of the variants and in most cases your going to be running the same exact build with little variation. The way to diversify that is to quirk the mech so that it leads you to using a different build, example, a -10% to HLL heat, -10% Cooldown to HLLs on one variant and on another, maybe +10% Pulse Laser range, -5% Pulse Laser Heat, etc. The very minimal quirks on that they did add, really does nothing to lead you to use specific systems on a specific variant so with that being the case, why the hell own multiple variants?

For example, the IIC and the IIC-3 have virtually the same hardpoints and I strongly doubt many people are going to use the single missile hardpoint on the IIC so you basically have the exact same mech however the quirks don't do enough to really distinguish between the two so most likely I will be selling one of the variants right out of the gate. I mean why spend the time, c-bills and effort to skill up two mostly identical mechs? That is kind of my point.

As to the direction the tread when in, yeah I am super disappointed in how restrictive they are making the movement profile of this mech. I mean I understand it is a Clan Battlemech and all but its hardpoints aren't exactly in the best locations and honestly it just isn't fun playing a mech that has such a stiff movement profile. It just seems they went over the top. I also propose that the Warhammer IIC be re-named to the Nerfhammer IIC cause that appears to be the direction PGI went with things.

Yeah, the variant overlap is an issue, but the reason I shifted the conversation to agility was because it's more important to get the chassis as a whole viable before differentiating individual variants. Doesn't matter how unique they are if they all turn out mediocre anyways.

[Antares102]

FupDup, on 16 February 2019 - 12:24 PM, said:

Doesn't matter how unique they are if they all turn out mediocre anyways like battleships

[Angel of Annihilation]

FupDup, on 16 February 2019 - 12:24 PM, said:

Yeah, the variant overlap is an issue, but the reason I shifted the conversation to agility was because it's more important to get the chassis as a whole viable before differentiating individual variants. Doesn't matter how unique they are if they all turn out mediocre anyways.

I agree and honestly when I wrote up the original thread, I was one a short break at work so didn't have time to do more than look over the quirks and see a lot less to differentiate between the similar variants that I had expected. It wasn't until later that I noticed how godawful the agility profile of the Warhammer IIC was. I guess if I am being honest, while I didn't think they would be very generous with the agility profile, I had no expectation they would give it the absolutely worst profile the could in the game. Hell they honestly couldn't make it much worse without it reaching the level of the absurd.

[HammerMaster]

Angel of Annihilation, on 16 February 2019 - 12:07 PM, said:

The point of the original thread was that there was very little diversity between many of the variants and in most cases your going to be running the same exact build with little variation. The way to diversify that is to quirk the mech so that it leads you to using a different build, example, a -10% to HLL heat, -10% Cooldown to HLLs on one variant and on another, maybe +10% Pulse Laser range, -5% Pulse Laser Heat, etc. The very minimal quirks on that they did add, really does nothing to lead you to use specific systems on a specific variant so with that being the case, why the hell own multiple variants?

For example, the IIC and the IIC-3 have virtually the same hardpoints and I strongly doubt many people are going to use the single missile hardpoint on the IIC so you basically have the exact same mech however the quirks don't do enough to really distinguish between the two so most likely I will be selling one of the variants right out of the gate. I mean why spend the time, c-bills and effort to skill up two mostly identical mechs? That is kind of my point.

As to the direction the tread when in, yeah I am super disappointed in how restrictive they are making the movement profile of this mech. I mean I understand it is a Clan Battlemech and all but its hardpoints aren't exactly in the best locations and honestly it just isn't fun playing a mech that has such a stiff movement profile. It just seems they went over the top. I also propose that the Warhammer IIC be re-named to the Nerfhammer IIC cause that appears to be the direction PGI went with things.

Agreed to a point.
But thinking people won't use a single missile point is filth thinking and what got the missile quirk removed from the MADIIC-8. Which it sorely needs.
Which this will sorely needed to separate it from the next nonsense laser vomit build.
I love making a single ALRM20 do good work out there and removing missile quirks is BS.

Grus, on 15 February 2019 - 02:42 PM, said:

Worse...

Do you have comparison numbers?

Edited by HammerMaster, 16 February 2019 - 05:41 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

HammerMaster, on 16 February 2019 - 05:41 PM, said:

Do you have comparison numbers?

Awesome:
Accel 15.42 (20.03 for PB)
Decel 17.50 (19.38 for PB)
Turn 40.11 (45.26 for PB)
Twist 100 degrees at 72 degrees/sec. (81 degrees/sec for PB)

Zeus:
Accel 36.17
Decel 28.75
Turn 57.87
Twist 103.5 degrees at 103.50 degrees/sec.

Warhammer IIC:
Accel 13.11
Decel 16.55
Turn 37.81
Twist 75 degrees at 72 degrees/sec.

So the Warhammer IIC is marginally slower than the Awesome, and pathetically slower than the Zeus.

Interestingly, there is one variant of one other 80-tonner that has nearly identical mobility stats to the WHM-IIC. It's the Charger hero, Number Seven, which has about the same acceleration (13.11), deceleration (13.56), and turn rate (37.82)... but better twist range (100) and twist rate (81). The other 80-tonners, including all other Charger variants, have stats somewhere between the extremes of the Awesome and Zeus; only the Gargoyle stands out with the best turn rate (65.32) and twist rate (108) but slightly slower accel and decel compared to the Zeus.

So... yeah, it really is that bad. The WHM-IIC is quite literally the slowest and least flexible 80-tonner, by a factor of two and then some compared to the fastest 80-ton 'Mechs.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 16 February 2019 - 07:08 PM.

[Hellbringer]

Hold up, hold up, this mech hadn't even dropped yet and you guys are already complaining !? Just give it a chance first before you start arm chair quarterbacking.

[LT. HARDCASE]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 16 February 2019 - 07:07 PM, said:

So the Warhammer IIC is marginally slower than the Awesome

With a massive advantage as far as size. The agility sucks but that seems fair if we are comparing just these two in a vacuum.

Hellbringer, on 16 February 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

Hold up, hold up, this mech hadn't even dropped yet and you guys are already complaining !? Just give it a chance first before you start arm chair quarterbacking.

The game has been around long enough to not need to actually play things to know how they are going to feel.

I don't need to see him on the field to know a quarterback with a broken arm is going in with a huge disadvantage.

Edited by LT. HARDCASE, 16 February 2019 - 09:27 PM.

[Formosa The God]

Hellbringer, on 16 February 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

Hold up, hold up, this mech hadn't even dropped yet and you guys are already complaining !? Just give it a chance first before you start arm chair quarterbacking.

Based on the stats its a valid complaint, it IS the worst 80ton mech for mobility at the moment, however its small, so i think that will make a lot of difference.

[Koniving]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 16 February 2019 - 07:07 PM, said:

So... yeah, it really is that bad. The WHM-IIC is quite literally the slowest and least flexible 80-tonner, by a factor of two and then some compared to the fastest 80-ton 'Mechs.

So pissed that they gave the PB better brakes... Terrible brakes had a great exploit for hill climbing; the worse your brakes the more reduced the rate at which you slow down on steep inclines...allowing a Pretty Baby of old with its terrible brakes to be able to climb to the top of Almost any spire in Tourmaline.

Beyond that... I wonder if PGI's reasoning "Sure it'll be the slowest, but it's the smallest! It's smaller than some of the IS 70 tonners, and almost as small as the greatly shrunken Catapult, which for a while people said was made too small! Surely that'll keep them happy."
Yet here we are.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

The only way to generate a miss if you're in a larger heavy or smaller assault is to have accel or decel quick enough to duck the shot or twist stats good enough to spread it... and the WHM-IIC doesn't have either. If it had great twist stats so that it could shield like a boss, and that was its gimmick, I could almost understand the terrible chassis mobility... but it doesn't. It's bad at that, too, and fragile- as the only 80-tonner with no durability quirks at all. It's a classic glass cannon, except there are already 'Mechs far better at the whole "cannon" bit, so really all it ends up with is the glass part, and that's not likely to be good enough most of the time. It will only see limited success with pilots who enjoy playing the underdog... much like Mr. Gargles. It's too limited as-is for mainstream success.

[FireStoat]

It's a free hero mech for me so... I'll take it, I'll play with it, and I'll find a build on it that works like I had to do with the Sun Spider. And then I'll quietly go back to my IS mechs because their weapons, agility, and defensive quirks all remain. Seriously, find me someone who is consistently successful in the deathtrap called the Hellfire. The Warhammer IIC is going to be a repeat.

[Psykmoe]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 16 February 2019 - 07:07 PM, said:

Interestingly, there is one variant of one other 80-tonner that has nearly identical mobility stats to the WHM-IIC. It's the Charger hero, Number Seven, which has about the same acceleration (13.11), deceleration (13.56), and turn rate (37.82)... but better twist range (100) and twist rate (81). The other 80-tonners, including all other Charger variants, have stats somewhere between the extremes of the Awesome and Zeus; only the Gargoyle stands out with the best turn rate (65.32) and twist rate (108) but slightly slower accel and decel compared to the Zeus.

The Charger hero handles poorly but at least it's kinda tough. It has those huge structure quirks and -70% crit receiving out of the box, the biggest crit protection quirk in the game. It's all the lucky charms painted on it, you know!

[Dee Eight]

I'm not sure why anyone expected, after how they nerfed the Night Gyr and Marauder IIC's agility, that the Warhammer IIC would get any better than those clan mechs that are 5 tons lighter or heavier.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

The difference is that the Marauder IIC doesn't need great agility to take advantage of its wiggle-and-spread hitboxes, and the NTG is actually better at certain builds than the other Clan 75-tonners (it dakkas best of all Clan heavies, poptarts with ATMs and PPC+AC or PPC+Gauss, and now also has ECM; the TBR meanwhile has better grounds speed, and the ON1-IIC brawls like a boss). There are still things each does better than alternatives in the same weight class. The same is not true of the WHM-IIC. For every build that can be conceived for the WHM-IIC, there is already a nearly identical build for one or more MAD-IIC or MCII variants, which offer better hitboxes, twist profiles, mount locations... or all of the above, with only slightly less chassis mobility. The much-maligned GAR can, at least, stack a metric buttload of ERuL and MPL to make a unique-but-tricky vomit brawler. The WHM-IIC has no builds which it alone can pull off, so it needed something else to set it apart. Something which it did not get.

This is a 'Mech without a niche. The niche PGI has specced it for is already full of stronger 'Mechs. Instead, it should have been the middle ground between the GAR's agility and the MAD-IIC's firepower... hopefully, the error is corrected while there's still time. Otherwise, I smell a bunch of preorder refunds and more than a couple shelf queens.

[Grus]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 16 February 2019 - 07:07 PM, said:

Awesome:
Accel 15.42 (20.03 for PB)
Decel 17.50 (19.38 for PB)
Turn 40.11 (45.26 for PB)
Twist 100 degrees at 72 degrees/sec. (81 degrees/sec for PB)

Zeus:
Accel 36.17
Decel 28.75
Turn 57.87
Twist 103.5 degrees at 103.50 degrees/sec.

Warhammer IIC:
Accel 13.11
Decel 16.55
Turn 37.81
Twist 75 degrees at 72 degrees/sec.

So the Warhammer IIC is marginally slower than the Awesome, and pathetically slower than the Zeus.

Interestingly, there is one variant of one other 80-tonner that has nearly identical mobility stats to the WHM-IIC. It's the Charger hero, Number Seven, which has about the same acceleration (13.11), deceleration (13.56), and turn rate (37.82)... but better twist range (100) and twist rate (81). The other 80-tonners, including all other Charger variants, have stats somewhere between the extremes of the Awesome and Zeus; only the Gargoyle stands out with the best turn rate (65.32) and twist rate (108) but slightly slower accel and decel compared to the Zeus.

So... yeah, it really is that bad. The WHM-IIC is quite literally the slowest and least flexible 80-tonner, by a factor of two and then some compared to the fastest 80-ton 'Mechs.

PGI IS bias confirmed...

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 17 February 2019 - 07:05 AM, said:

PGI IS bias confirmed...

*catches breath*

[Grus]

Jay Leon Hart, on 17 February 2019 - 07:46 AM, said:

*catches breath*

Oh come on! Look at those numbers Jay, you cant say that doesn't need some adjustment.

[FupDup]

Grus, on 17 February 2019 - 08:18 AM, said:

Oh come on! Look at those numbers Jay, you cant say that doesn't need some adjustment.

Jay didn't say those numbers were good, he's just laughing at the "IS faction bias" part specifically.

[Grus]

FupDup, on 17 February 2019 - 08:22 AM, said:

Jay didn't say those numbers were good, he's just laughing at the "IS faction bias" part specifically.

Well looking at those numbers what would be your conclusion?