189 replies to this topic

[Hagen Zwosta]

ambosen, on 02 December 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

So you haven't played the game at all, really. LRM's as a problem mostly only exists in people's memories long ago of when they were viable weapons in comparison to literally everything else in the game.

Almost not at all. I am at roundabout 1000 matches now. As I said I am new.
My answer was from the perspective of new players. And I can assure you that a lot of newcomers will quit because of that.
And invisible light mechs and very bad matchmaking. Those are the 3 main problems with new player retention.

Very bad matchmaking: all assault from 1 team camp the redline with LRM or blue lasers, leaving the lighter mechs alone in the front.
They could actually solve 2 problems in 1 go. Dont let assaults equip LRMs

Edited by Hagen Zwosta, 03 December 2023 - 01:43 AM.

[MrFatBard]

pgi: hates lrms

also pgi: keeps making gigantic maps and buffs for lrms

[Void Angel]

Tesunie, on 02 December 2023 - 06:39 PM, said:

I missed the time where Artemis LRMs hit only the head component by a few months... Yeah. The hay day. No mech survived an LRM strike then!

I missed that entirely - I was at Annual Training when they messed around with explosive radius and made LRMs just body 'mechs no matter where they hit, too.

[ambosen]

MrFatBard, on 03 December 2023 - 02:13 PM, said:

pgi: hates lrms

also pgi: keeps making gigantic maps and buffs for lrms

So basically, you don't understand how equipping nearly every mech in the game with ECM, putting a ton of random terrain in the middle of maps to break up line of sight and provide cover, making LRM's have a scatter as well as delayed lock on mechanic unique to them, or even the fact that they're one of three weapons systems in the game it's legitimately possible to do zero damage with despite firing at near point blank range on a stationary target, and continue to get nerf after nerf despite all those up front disadvantages acts as hard proof they're purposefully trying to optimize the game for giving advantage to hitscan sniping weapons and short range brawling weapons, got it.

Void Angel, on 03 December 2023 - 06:32 PM, said:

I missed that entirely - I was at Annual Training when they messed around with explosive radius and made LRMs just body 'mechs no matter where they hit, too.

That's because neither ever happened in the game's entire history.

[Void Angel]

Hagen Zwosta, on 03 December 2023 - 01:40 AM, said:

Almost not at all. I am at roundabout 1000 matches now. As I said I am new.
My answer was from the perspective of new players. And I can assure you that a lot of newcomers will quit because of that.
And invisible light mechs and very bad matchmaking. Those are the 3 main problems with new player retention.

Very bad matchmaking: all assault from 1 team camp the redline with LRM or blue lasers, leaving the lighter mechs alone in the front.
They could actually solve 2 problems in 1 go. Dont let assaults equip LRMs

If you're having to artificially stop a weight class from equipping a weapon, you're probably just putting a band-aid on a hole in the ****, if you'll pardon the mixed metaphors. LRMs are a really problematic weapon to balance for several reasons.

First, they punish bad positioning, and when you're new, you don't know where to go and not to go. Now, dakka and massed sniper fire will also punish bad positioning, but LRMs can do it with no chance for the victim to strike back - and sometimes without the targeted 'mech making an error! If a fast spotter can get in position, there's times where you can get blasted by LRMs when you're traveling between high cover, and it's just a matter of "oh, you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, enjoy the explosive rain." The second problem is really intertwined with the first: LRMs have to be balanced along two axes - direct fire, and indirect fire. Giving them different spread and flight paths helps with that, but just having the ability to attack people from behind cover makes balance difficult (or impossible) to achieve.

To explain what I mean, let's start with direct-fire functioning. Direct-fire LRMs are a facetime weapon, much like RACs and other dakka. If you have your LRM balance dialed in so that it competes well with other direct-fire weapons, what you get is a direct substitute for that kind of fighting, but with the ability to lob shells over the horizon, too. If my gun works about as well as your gun, but mine shoots around corners if I have a spotter handy, my gun is overpowered.

OK, so that just means we need to make it less powerful in direct-fire to make up for indirect functioning - but... how much indirect functioning? We cannot balance the game just around organized teams, so assuming LRMs always have a spotter is out - if we did that, it'd be a solidly inferior weapon in Quickplay except when brought by a premade team (like a 4-man.) But a spotter is required for indirect functioning, so we'll have to balance it somehow. We could examine match telemetry to see how many LRM pilots are getting spotters, but player builds and behavior changes by skill level. If players in low Tier aren't as good about spotting, or about surviving in their spotter 'mechs, balancing LRM functioning for that will make the weapon too strong in premade teams and higher tier play. But if we balance it for upper Tiers, it'll be hard for new players to do well with LRMs. So... which Tier do we pick?

The only way to kind of get to a balance point is to make a best-case guess about LRM balance, and then make adjustments from there - which... I'm pretty sure is where PGI is right now. But it's going to be hard to find a balance point that will make LRMs fun for all concerned at low levels without invalidating them at higher Tiers (which is where the state of the game was for years and years.) And still, no matter what we do, solo players will find that the effectiveness of friendly and enemy LRMs will significantly vary - due to factors outside the LRM pilot's control.

PS: It's nice to see that "The Devs obviously hate X, and love Y, and my subjective train of motivated logic is proof" tinfoil hat arguments are still going strong. I don't have the time to play WoW or whatnot any more, but this stuff really scratches that forum nostalgia itch.

ambosen, on 03 December 2023 - 07:07 PM, said:

That's because neither ever happened in the game's entire history.

PPS: You just lost all credibility on weapon balance, tinfoil boy. I was there. Don't call me a liar because you're ignorant.

Edited by Void Angel, 03 December 2023 - 08:50 PM.

[Tesunie]

Hagen Zwosta, on 03 December 2023 - 01:40 AM, said:

Almost not at all. I am at roundabout 1000 matches now. As I said I am new.
My answer was from the perspective of new players. And I can assure you that a lot of newcomers will quit because of that.
And invisible light mechs and very bad matchmaking. Those are the 3 main problems with new player retention.

Very bad matchmaking: all assault from 1 team camp the redline with LRM or blue lasers, leaving the lighter mechs alone in the front.
They could actually solve 2 problems in 1 go. Dont let assaults equip LRMs

I don't know what you mean by invisible lights? Are you saying light mechs that have ECM at a range not being picked up by radar as a target (can't get a target lock), and/or stealth mechs (which are more than just light mechs FYI) that have stealth active and can remain untargetable even when up in your face?

I know I've had a heck of a time trying to kill Piranhas, and I don't think I've managed to kill one yet even when it has shut down in front of me somehow... among a few other strange happenings with hit reg at odd times... but I've not had an invisible mech killing me that couldn't be seen visually. Unless you count the light mech hugging my assault mech's legs and my assault mech can't bend over enough to see or even shoot the bug as it rips me apart... which is still visible but a matter of torso pitch and mech scaling (which is a whole different issue altogether.)

Void Angel, on 03 December 2023 - 06:32 PM, said:

I missed that entirely - I was at Annual Training when they messed around with explosive radius and made LRMs just body 'mechs no matter where they hit, too.

Were you here when LRMs with Artemis and TAG on a target made LRMs hit almost nothing by CT? That was a rare day for direct fired LRMs.

ambosen, on 03 December 2023 - 07:07 PM, said:

That's because neither ever happened in the game's entire history.

Oh. It happened. Some of this was back in open beta with the game, back when we had delayed convergence, had to learn to lag shoot (guess where the mech registered on the server, not where they visually were on your screen, and shoot there), and ECM SSRM Ravens were completely untouchable by just about everything (because they were one of two ECM fast mechs, could mount the most SSRMs, couldn't be countered unless someone else has ECM (which only three mechs could at that time) and lag shooting light mechs was just about impossible without SSRMs or massed laser fire from an entire team...).

This game has had it's fair share of hi jinx and shenanigans in it's days. Like the Stalkers being the deadliest single shooter mech in the game for a long while once instant convergence was added in and counter-lag tracking was placed in. Hex PPC Stalkers would shoot, kill a mech they hit, take a nap, wake up with no damage (overheat damage wasn't in yet) and shoot again to take another nap. Or when Dragon-bowling was a thing back when collision was in the game.

Ah. The good old times.

[Tesunie]

I also recall when all missile weapons had an explosive radius of I think 5m around the missile impact. SSRMs were dealing like 10 damage or more per missile (depending upon where it hit) as it would often hit 2-3 components for 2.5 damage to each component it hit, and back then they aimed for joints not "bones", so they often would hit the seams of a mech.

LRMs were great at taking out legs back then, as their splash damage would hit the ground near a light mech and just blast explosive damage at their delicate legs. No funny quirks to increase the health of those legs back then, so they just went pop (this was before and just at the start of ECM introduction).

[Void Angel]

Tesunie, on 07 December 2023 - 10:08 AM, said:

I also recall when all missile weapons had an explosive radius of I think 5m around the missile impact. SSRMs were dealing like 10 damage or more per missile (depending upon where it hit) as it would often hit 2-3 components for 2.5 damage to each component it hit, and back then they aimed for joints not "bones", so they often would hit the seams of a mech.

LRMs were great at taking out legs back then, as their splash damage would hit the ground near a light mech and just blast explosive damage at their delicate legs. No funny quirks to increase the health of those legs back then, so they just went pop (this was before and just at the start of ECM introduction).

That was the LRMpocalypse.. Even assaults were taking massive, extra damage, and it got worse the smaller your 'mech was. Unless it happened twice, this would have happened in like 2014 or something, though - long after ECM.

[Tesunie]

Void Angel, on 07 December 2023 - 01:11 PM, said:

That was the LRMpocalypse.. Even assaults were taking massive, extra damage, and it got worse the smaller your 'mech was. Unless it happened twice, this would have happened in like 2014 or something, though - long after ECM.

They must have tuned ECM down then at that point, or it wouldn't have been as bad as I recalled it being... Hard to keep everything in chronological order when you've been playing for so long... and though I am of course perfect and do not make mistakes, my computer sometimes posts strange things.

[Void Angel]

Tesunie, on 07 December 2023 - 01:56 PM, said:

They must have tuned ECM down then at that point, or it wouldn't have been as bad as I recalled it being... Hard to keep everything in chronological order when you've been playing for so long... and though I am of course perfect and do not make mistakes, my computer sometimes posts strange things.

Nah, ECM is slightly nerfed from then, if I recall the timeline - but all you need is TAG and some UAVs when enough people are exploiting the bug (because it resulted in massive damage numbers and would simply crush a Light that was caught by it.) They weren't the only weapons used, I was told, but Ye Auld Lerm Nerds had a field day abusing the bug.

[ambosen]

Void Angel, on 03 December 2023 - 07:25 PM, said:

PPS: You just lost all credibility on weapon balance, tinfoil boy. I was there. Don't call me a liar because you're ignorant.

Kid, your conspiracy theory is just that; a conspiracy theory. I'm under no obligation to humor your continuing delusions that patches were made to the game that magically turned LRM's into an insta kill always headshotting weapon. So, with all due respect?

Learn how the ******* game works before you try to tell those of who were playing it 10 years before you even tried to pick it up your conspiracy theory. Because again no such event ever happened. Because unlike you, I was actually there playing.

[ambosen]

Tesunie, on 07 December 2023 - 10:08 AM, said:

I also recall when all missile weapons had an explosive radius of I think 5m around the missile impact. SSRMs were dealing like 10 damage or more per missile (depending upon where it hit) as it would often hit 2-3 components for 2.5 damage to each component it hit, and back then they aimed for joints not "bones", so they often would hit the seams of a mech.

LRMs were great at taking out legs back then, as their splash damage would hit the ground near a light mech and just blast explosive damage at their delicate legs. No funny quirks to increase the health of those legs back then, so they just went pop (this was before and just at the start of ECM introduction).

And in what alternate reality did this supposedly occur? The one where they had an instant hit to head button? The one where they supposedly could hit 6 times the length of the game map? The one where the one weapons system with multiple active and passive counter options available to every mech in the game plus a range penalty, plus different versions that have specific strengths and weaknesses. Oh, wait, how about the one where they supposedly could bypass terrain to hit mechs in total cover in tunnels?

You realize these are all lies people whining about their refusal to learn how to play the game means everything needs to be nerfed have told me just within the last week, right? Most from Void there.

[Void Angel]

ambosen, on 10 December 2023 - 02:08 AM, said:

Kid, your conspiracy theory is just that; a conspiracy theory. I'm under no obligation to humor your continuing delusions that patches were made to the game that magically turned LRM's into an insta kill always headshotting weapon. So, with all due respect?

Learn how the ******* game works before you try to tell those of who were playing it 10 years before you even tried to pick it up your conspiracy theory. Because again no such event ever happened. Because unlike you, I was actually there playing.

You just keep on embarrassing yourself - is it some kind of masochistic hobby? Pejorative, ageist assumptions aside, all you had to do was mouse over my name to avoid looking like a raving forum troll. But no, you did not. You could have asked for more information, or said, "ehh, that sounds far-fetched, guys." But no, you did not. Instead, you jumped into the conversation with "You're all liars! You ignorant kid (cause only kids who don't know anything disagree with me) go learn how the game works!" And then immediately told lies yourself: literally nothing in the poorly-written screed above was something I told you - you are just making things up. Children normally learn what "lying" is before preschool; you certainly must know better.
Tesunie and I are remembering things that happened to us, personally. I know how that particular LRMpocalypse happened; I know why it happened, and what the devs did to fix it; the actual forum posts are buried in the archives, but google " explosion radius," and you'll find references to part of the mechanic.

So, two separate players have said, "yeah, I remember that." The only correct thing you've said in your ranting tantrum is that you're not obliged to believe two people who are long-term veterans of the game when they remember something you feel is improbable. But if you want to call us both outright liars, you're going to need more than your personal exhibition of the Dunning-Kruger Effect to back that up. Simply asserting that people who question your opinions are "kids" who "just started the game" isn't proof of anything - except perhaps your personal character.

Your opinion isn't... worth anything. I'm only responding here to answer the raging insults you're throwing around - but whether or not you some forum rager who makes stuff up out of whole cloth is sticking their fingers in in their ears to scream "lalalalaidon'tbelieveyoulalala!" Isn't important to me. Your speaking privileges are revoked. Welcome to ignore.

[Void Angel]

PS: Your Jarl's rating is in the 19th percentile. That doesn't make you wrong - your own bad reasoning does that. But it does make you entirely unqualified to be snide to anyone about "how the game works."

[Tesunie]

ambosen, on 10 December 2023 - 02:21 AM, said:

And in what alternate reality did this supposedly occur? The one where they had an instant hit to head button? The one where they supposedly could hit 6 times the length of the game map? The one where the one weapons system with multiple active and passive counter options available to every mech in the game plus a range penalty, plus different versions that have specific strengths and weaknesses. Oh, wait, how about the one where they supposedly could bypass terrain to hit mechs in total cover in tunnels?

You realize these are all lies people whining about their refusal to learn how to play the game means everything needs to be nerfed have told me just within the last week, right? Most from Void there.

I clicked your forum profile. You started playing your account (or rather, created your forum profile) around the same time I did. How did you miss all these things? I missed out on Artemis causing LRM headshots (which I will say I missed before it was very quickly rolled back in a hot fix). It happened just before I had joined.

I have never heard of LRMs going through terrain and hitting targets inside the tunnel (though I have used them in the tunnel in the old days, which was NOT EASY). Now, AMS did, and still does, shoot at missiles through objects, such as shooting missiles outside a tunnel... I don't believe this was changed.



I will remark, me and Void have done our own back and forth on what might or might not work for game balance. Sometimes I make points against him. Other times for him. With that said, I will comment that everyone has their own idea of how to balance the game. Some ideas you might agree with. Others you may find completely out there. Without any specifics, I can't vote in one way or the other on any specific game balance suggestions.

However, Void is echoing the same things that have been said about LRMs for a long time, that they are a feast or famine weapon. Either you have a match where LRMs just rule the day, or they can't do anything. Part of that is because of how delicate they are to balance being the only weapon in the game (currently to my knowledge) that can shoot indirectly. This one aspect makes them hard to balance. Too powerful one way, and they wreck everything and become king weapon. Too much the other way and they literally can't even fight on par with anything of equal tonnage of weapon.

LRMs have also had the special privilege of getting some really wonky effects over the years, between bad coding, attempts to give them more flavor, balance, hit reg issues, homing issues... They have been a wild ride to be fair, and not all of it (hitting only head hit box as an example) was intentional. (FYI: The hitting only the head with Artemis was something that I think lasted for a single day before being pulled out of the game. It was not an intended part of the weapon by any means.)

I am going to say, I don't know about your personal experience here, but I am NOT going to dredge through the forums to get the relevant "proof" of these events. I will leave proof from Youtube about Dragon Bowling though...

[Tesunie]

The Jeagermech "All head hit box issue", which also had an LRM head shot kill from behind... (Not related to the Artemis LRM headshot mentioned above.)

[ambosen]

Kid, why should I humor any of your delusions?

Dead serious.

Why?

Why should I ever pretend you have the first clue in hell how the game works.

Why should I pretend you're not literally harassing the developers in hopes of modifying the game to your personal benefit?

Why should I pretend you aren't the problem with this entire game?

I mean nevermind you can literally *watch* people using LRM's dump hundreds of missiles on a light mech out in the open and literally watch them avoid all damage. Nevermind that the actual speed of LRM's has been nerfed multiple times. Never mind that the accuracy has been nerfed. Nevermind that until fairly recently *EVERY MECH IN THE GAME* was running around with 100% Radar deprevation, and now is only running around with 96% as if that 4 percent wasn't still a massive nerf aimed specifically at one category of weapon merely to appease your pathetic whining.

Nevermind that the number of mech chassis in this game with ECM has increased so much that it's become incredibly rare to see people using mechs without it at all. Nevermind that you are willfully ignoring that anyone actually playing the game has largely chosen to stop using LRM's *ENTIRELY* because they are now indisputably the weakest weapon category in the game, with MRM's on many mechs benefitting from velocity, accuracy, and range traits that make them objectively superior to LRM's in every possible way. Nevermind that on many mech chassis SRM's beat them out for fire rate damage done, and even heat per shot.

Nevermind that the entire laser weapon category is functionally hitscan with a simultaneous damage over time effect. Nevermind that gauss weapons have been buffed multiple times and are the objective leaders in damage per ton.

I realize i'm expecting you to recognize causal relationships based entirely off your conspiracy theories, but get over yourself.

[Hagen Zwosta]

Well then, why not just delete LRM from the game if its so bad anyway.
Win Win.

[Tesunie]

ambosen, on 22 December 2023 - 11:54 AM, said:

Kid,

Okay. Kid? That was the best you could come up with? Kid?

FYI: Your forum account was created on March 17th, 2012. My own forum account was created on November 30th, 2012. Even if I was the younger recommended age for this game (lets say 13), I would most likely be about 24 years old by now. For the record, I was much older than 13 when I started. I was older than 18 as well... So it would be highly unlikely I would still be a "kid"...

ambosen, on 22 December 2023 - 11:54 AM, said:

Kid, why should I humor any of your delusions?

Dead serious.

Why?

Why should I ever pretend you have the first clue in hell how the game works.

Why should I pretend you're not literally harassing the developers in hopes of modifying the game to your personal benefit?

Why should I pretend you aren't the problem with this entire game?

So, you have been here since 2012, as long as I have been, minimum (because forum account date and game account date sometimes do not match). You are telling me in all those years you have never experienced any of the above mentioned things?
No Jeagermech "all head hit box" upon it's release? (Even rear shots as shown in the video, which shouldn't even be possible.)
No Spider belly button that absorbed all damage (exaggeration)? (It had a hole in it's hit boxes around it's belly button that, if hit, did no damage at all.)
You don't recall the days of delayed convergence and "lag" shooting with lasers to hit?
The Murder of Ravens running around as the top tier mech for some time upon ECM's introduction?
The old Artemis bug that caused LRMs to hit almost only head hit box? (This was removed the very same day it was placed in, I think it didn't even last an hour on live. Very short lived.)
Jenner's being almost completely CT, and deemed XL safe as their side torsos were nearly impossible to hit (from the front)?
Etc?

Do you recall none of this and only "a perfect running game" all these years? For the record, all of these issues have been fixed over the years.

If you don't recall any of these, I'm thinking this actually wasn't your account to start with, or you are just being here to troll others... Not sure which.

ambosen, on 22 December 2023 - 11:54 AM, said:

I mean nevermind you can literally *watch* people using LRM's dump hundreds of missiles on a light mech out in the open and literally watch them avoid all damage. Nevermind that the actual speed of LRM's has been nerfed multiple times. Never mind that the accuracy has been nerfed. Nevermind that until fairly recently *EVERY MECH IN THE GAME* was running around with 100% Radar deprevation, and now is only running around with 96% as if that 4 percent wasn't still a massive nerf aimed specifically at one category of weapon merely to appease your pathetic whining.

LRMs have been buffed. :LRMs have been nerfed. LRMs have been altered, tweaked, changed, rebalanced, changed, changed back, etc and repeat many times.

Target Decay has been added in. Radar Deprivation also added. Originally each as modules, now as skills you can unlock. These two have always had an uneven relationship, presented by many over the time these abilities have been here. Max Target Decay has always been completely nullified (not just countered) by a maxed out Radar Deprivation. Decay adds to the time you can keep a lock. a 100% lock drop from Deprivation removes all decay, which is vastly more powerful than Target Decay.

I could go on and on about how LRMs have been changed over the years, and how some aspects are not balanced correctly. (Radar Deprivation should be weakened to the point that it counters Target Decay, without nullifying all decay. If Target Decay skill increase lock time by 3 seconds (throwing random number out), than a Radar Deprivation skill of equal level should drop lock decay by 3 seconds, meaning it brings target decay back to a default, unskilled, level.)

" *EVERY MECH IN THE GAME* was running around with 100% Radar deprevation," I think this line is a little bit of an exaggeration... And, how said I was whining? Or are you referring to anyone who happens to use and/or like LRMs in the game?

By the way, did they change Radar Deprivation from dropping lock decay by 100% (when maxed) or a lower percentage? If so, that would be great and place it more in line with it's counter skill (Adv Target Decay).

ambosen, on 22 December 2023 - 11:54 AM, said:

Nevermind that the number of mech chassis in this game with ECM has increased so much that it's become incredibly rare to see people using mechs without it at all. Nevermind that you are willfully ignoring that anyone actually playing the game has largely chosen to stop using LRM's *ENTIRELY* because they are now indisputably the weakest weapon category in the game, with MRM's on many mechs benefitting from velocity, accuracy, and range traits that make them objectively superior to LRM's in every possible way. Nevermind that on many mech chassis SRM's beat them out for fire rate damage done, and even heat per shot.

Nevermind that the entire laser weapon category is functionally hitscan with a simultaneous damage over time effect. Nevermind that gauss weapons have been buffed multiple times and are the objective leaders in damage per ton.

I realize i'm expecting you to recognize causal relationships based entirely off your conspiracy theories, but get over yourself.

Umm... I am confused as to why this is directed at me? I have to agree that, though it has been some time since I have managed to get into live matches, when I last tested LRMs on the Testing Grounds they felt more like wet noodles than combat weapons, and those targets were standing still... But I don't recall any changes to LRMs or their counters (besides a "weakening" of ECM by reducing it's covering sphere for allies) in some time... I try to keep up to date on changes despite my life not giving me the time to play...

I... am completely lost as to whom this may be directed to at this time now. I never said anything about other weapons at this time... Only saying tales of MW:O days gone by, long in the past. Did you think I was saying these things where happening right now, in the live game? These tales are from long ago, back in the open Beta days of this game. Is that the confusion here? Or... are you really just trying to troll me?

Edited by Tesunie, 23 December 2023 - 02:49 PM.

[Void Angel]

He's just a toxic forum rager. He's also a demonstrable scrub in the 19th percentile on Jarl's, who stopped playing at some point and returned during Covid. He doesn't know how the game works; he's not even good enough to access Tier 1 matches, and his arrogant hostility is simply a way for him to vent and pretend to a superiority he can't demonstrate in matches, even matched against Tier 5s.

I likely have boots that have been in the Army longer than he's been old enough to drive. Just revoke his speaking privileges and add him to ignore like I did. He's not worth the time spent thinking about rebutting him.

PS: even today, the majority of 'mechs in my matches do not have ECM, just as a sample. Toxic forum rager is toxic - and he's making up "facts" to support his rants. Seriously, just ignore him.