86 replies to this topic

[Commander James Raynor]

It has been said before, but I really need to stress just how important this is: htis map is bad, very bad. The absolute lack of cover makes LRM reign supreme, with 0 counter. I know it looks bad to backtrack on a map and it seems like a waste of effort to work on a map and then can it, but the map is a serious detriment to the game.
Just eliminate it, and kill Alpine too.

[HammerMaster]

AMS
ECM
Radar Deprivation
Cover
Positioning
Did I miss anything?

[Danjo San]

HammerMaster, on 13 March 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

AMS
ECM
Radar Deprivation
Cover
Positioning
Did I miss anything?

Stealth Armor

[HammerMaster]

Danjo San, on 13 March 2019 - 03:09 PM, said:

Stealth Armor

Thanks!
But...attached to ECM ya?

Edited by HammerMaster, 13 March 2019 - 03:16 PM.

[Danjo San]

HammerMaster, on 13 March 2019 - 03:16 PM, said:

Thanks!
But...attached to ECM ya?

true... still worth mentioning to be thorough

[Hauptmann Krause]

1.) AMS can't save you when most mechs can only take one. Mechs with more than that are typically very gimmicky.
2.) ECM is trash and is easily countered nowadays, especially if somebody TAGs you, PPCs you, or is just nearby you. Doesn't have to be the LRM boat that's about to shoot you; just his friendly neighborhood brawler who hates Polar Domination as much as I do.
3.) There is no such thing as cover on Polar. Anywhere that there is is where you will never encounter the enemy.
4.) If you want to shoot the enemy at all, you have to see them. If you can see them, they can see you. Good luck getting out of LoS with radar derp when the enemy just packs target retention to counter it.
5.) Positioning is always crucial, but if a map is 'stay behind the hill and never push or you die' there's a serious fault.

They want a simple fix, I have a good idea. Just make the map covered in an electromagnetic storm that disrupts sensors when firing indirectly, and stops you from seeing enemies past 600 or 700 meters.

[HammerMaster]

For the billionth time.
The problem is not the map.
Or LRM.
IT's the players.
PGI's issue was the free c3 from the beginning but that's another thread.

[admiralbenbow123]

DarkDeathTrooper, on 14 March 2019 - 02:40 PM, said:

3.) There is no such thing as cover on Polar.

The whole map consists of hills. Just learn to not expose if you are not a long range mech.

[Hauptmann Krause]

admiralbenbow123, on 15 March 2019 - 05:08 AM, said:

The whole map consists of hills. Just learn to not expose if you are not a long range mech.

Exposing yourself to LRM fire is the only way to see an enemy, and you can die nearly instantly if an enemy so much as catches a glance at you. They don't have to have the LRMs; just their teammates. Had a match today where I was in my Atlas. Full armor. I was crossing to cover and was exposed for five seconds. I took so much damage that it blew off my arm, side torso, and all the way into the CT by the time I had made it into cover. There is no justification for this map being so ******* open without some counter measure against LRMs.

[admiralbenbow123]

I guess I'll just post a link to my guide where you can find an explanation of how to deal with LRMs:
https://mwomercs.com...sweapons-guide/
Typing it all out every single time is just too time consuming.

[Hauptmann Krause]

Consider that people say that LRMs suck because of the number of counters they have. If you want to actually beat the LRMs, you require a large amount of tonnage or part of your skill tree reserved exclusively to counter LRMs / ATMs alone. That's stupid. LRM boats have no ******* requirements, and are free to shove on however many missiles they want with almost no limits. Polar encourages this ******** far beyond what is acceptable. It gets rid of any of their weaknesses, as at any given moment you have a clear shot on an enemy; either over the hills since the trenches aren't deep enough to actually duck behind and avoid LRM fire, or straight at an enemy. AMS / ECM again require investments into the skill tree or a **** ton of ammo and multiple units to actually be effective, which hinders mechs that just want to fight face to face.

[HammerMaster]

DarkDeathTrooper, on 15 March 2019 - 03:43 PM, said:

If you want to actually beat the LRMs, you require a large amount of tonnage

ECM 1.5 ton for IS 1 for Clan
AMS .5 ton for both add ammo.

DarkDeathTrooper, on 15 March 2019 - 03:43 PM, said:

or part of your skill tree

Please. A few nodes of 91.

[Hauptmann Krause]

Compared to 0 required tonnage and 0 required skill investments if you so much as have allies brawling while running a LRM boat.

[HammerMaster]

DarkDeathTrooper, on 15 March 2019 - 05:57 PM, said:

Compared to 0 required tonnage and 0 required skill investments if you so much as have allies brawling while running a LRM boat.

I'll reiterate.
Please.

[Void Angel]

If only there were some way to maneuver against the enemy team in order to get close to their LRM boats. Sadly, this is impossible because, as everyone knows, any map that has long sight lines can only be used effectively by long ranged 'mechs. Had the developers put in covered and concealed routes to get to just about anywhere in the map, this would be different, but alas! This was not meant to be!

[Danjo San]

DarkDeathTrooper, on 15 March 2019 - 05:57 PM, said:

Compared to 0 required tonnage and 0 required skill investments if you so much as have allies brawling while running a LRM boat.

to reduce lock on time you need to invest in either Tag 1t, Command Console 3t, Beagle Active Probes 0.5-1.5t and Targeting Computers 1-7t. Skill Tree as well ... Target Decay, Missle Spread are a must have.

For your Atlas to lose 2 Components and damage your CT, as you say, over the duration of 5 seconds, requires the LRM Boat to aquire a lock and the missiles to travel.
I went on Polar Highlands Testing Grounds, with an unskilled Catapult, Stock Loadout = 0 Investment required. The non-moving Atlas is in K11, I went to L12, there is a small trench that obstructs line of sight and when you move just right you are able to simulate your 5 second transition from cover to cover, while hitting the Atlas from the side to blow off your arm first, then ST and then damage the CT
I did several trial runs, the most I could come up with over a strict period of 5 seconds, was 6% Damage. 7% when I opened the launcher doors before firing.
However to blast off the left arm and the left side torso it required a total of 33% DMG and using up all of the Catapults Ammo for the two LRM15 launchers.
So lets do the math here LRM30 does 6% in 5 Seconds, which means to be able to do 33% in 5seconds I need 165 LRMs.
Thus requiring at least one lance of Mechs focussing and firing their missiles at roughly the same time... This sounds like something I have heard before. What was it called again? gathered missiles? combined target? focus rockets?
Focus Fire!! That's it... I wonder if this works with other weapons as well...

[KhanBhacKeD]

Void Angel, on 16 March 2019 - 03:05 PM, said:

If only there were some way to maneuver against the enemy team in order to get close to their LRM boats. Sadly, this is impossible because, as everyone knows, any map that has long sight lines can only be used effectively by long ranged 'mechs. Had the developers put in covered and concealed routes to get to just about anywhere in the map, this would be different, but alas! This was not meant to be!

And that's on polar you have the possibility to move in cover without any ennemy can spot you in the canyons.
The only things you need is 1 light to keep guiding you to the ennemy. And it work really well tbh. (even an Atlas can take this way)
Then now I you use long range mechs, try to take advantage of that, remember lurms cannot go pass 1100m.
While an erll/erppc mech still doing 70% of his damage at this range. So quite faire enough to me. Lurm only work cause on pugs you just stay inside their sweet spot and only does the same thing again and again on this map.

[Void Angel]

Heheh. Yeah, I know. I've done quite well on this map with even slow brawlers, assuming that I can get people to actually play the map as it's designed to be played. This is rarer than I'd like, though, and I generally don't vote for it because of the pebkac issues being experienced by so many teammates - as evidenced by threads like this.

[Void Angel]

DarkDeathTrooper, on 15 March 2019 - 03:43 PM, said:

Consider that people say that LRMs suck because of the number of counters they have. If you want to actually beat the LRMs, you require a large amount of tonnage or part of your skill tree reserved exclusively to counter LRMs / ATMs alone. That's stupid. LRM boats have no ******* requirements, and are free to shove on however many missiles they want with almost no limits.

Sorry, this is factually incorrect. I don't mean that "this isn't my opinion, so you're wrong!" I mean that this issue is a math problem with graphics - and you have the wrong answer.

Leaving aside subjective interpretations about what might be considered a "large" part of the skill tree, it is literally impossible in most cases to spend a "large" amount of tonnage on missile countermeasures, unless you're talking about boating AMS on the handful of 'mechs that can do that in order to totally shut down the enemy missile 'mech. And that's actually not possible if your enemy has enough missiles. Nor should it be. Conversely, LRM boats are "free to shove however many missiles they want with almost no limits" in the same way you are able to buy as many designer motorcycle helmets as you want with almost no limits. The costs add up quickly; mounting and feeding a large array of LRMs becomes space- and tonnage-heavy pretty quickly. So, your statement above is exactly backwards from the actual facts of the case.

What many players forget - or simply do not realize - when talking about weapons in general, and LRMs in particular, is that MWO, like its predecessors, is a game of skilled attrition. Battletech always has been. So people misunderstand the purpose of, say AMS, and discount it as a countermeasure because it doesn't stop all the missiles. AMS isn't an umbrella to stop you from getting rained on; it's damage reduction. Honestly, I think that AMS would be better off if it simply ran down ammo to reduce incoming missiles by a percentage rather than just stopping incoming fire. At the least it'd be easier to balance them, and maybe players would better understand their use if their effects were more explicit.

In any case, AMS is useful on Polar, but the map's lack of high cover makes the standard anti-LRM tactic of : scrambling for cover, wetting oneself, and hiding until the rain stops (in no particular order) totally ineffective. So you have to play the map as it's designed to be played. Move under cover toward the enemy team, use your ECM and AMS to mitigate their LRMs, and close with those boats to stop their fire. There's a lot of wrinkles that can be put into that general tactical framework - but using the wrong tactics and then complaining (in multiple, near duplicate threads) that the map doesn't work is counterproductive.

PS: Radar Deprivation is a vital tool for scouts and fast harassers; it's not just for de-locking LRMs. ECM skills are similarly useful.

[Tesunie]

DarkDeathTrooper, on 14 March 2019 - 02:40 PM, said:

1.) AMS can't save you when most mechs can only take one. Mechs with more than that are typically very gimmicky.
2.) ECM is trash and is easily countered nowadays, especially if somebody TAGs you, PPCs you, or is just nearby you. Doesn't have to be the LRM boat that's about to shoot you; just his friendly neighborhood brawler who hates Polar Domination as much as I do.
3.) There is no such thing as cover on Polar. Anywhere that there is is where you will never encounter the enemy.
4.) If you want to shoot the enemy at all, you have to see them. If you can see them, they can see you. Good luck getting out of LoS with radar derp when the enemy just packs target retention to counter it.
5.) Positioning is always crucial, but if a map is 'stay behind the hill and never push or you die' there's a serious fault.

They want a simple fix, I have a good idea. Just make the map covered in an electromagnetic storm that disrupts sensors when firing indirectly, and stops you from seeing enemies past 600 or 700 meters.

1. Counting on a single (your own) AMS is folly against a massive amount of LRMs. They work best in groups. So, consider if everyone on a team took at least one, you'd have 12 AMS. However, I've never seen a team try it, so it's never honestly been tested. I will comment that my Nova with twin AMS with a single ton of ammo took down 300+ missile on average when I ran out of missiles. That's still 300+ potential damage that did not reach a target. Imagine a whole team of that? (PS; This is before today's patch changes.)
2. ECM works well. It's no longer the "block all missile lock" box it once was, but honestly it never should have been in that position to begin with. It still slows down locks, making it harder for LRMs to get a lock. Break LoS and most likely you wont have to worry about them being able to get a lock before your signal disappears. Combine this longer locking time with Radar Dep... and those missile locks will become extremely difficult to not only get, but keep on you.

3. Polar has plenty of cover to break LoS. There are even places that are tall enough to block LRM fire. I suspect that now if you can trick them to shoot their missiles in direct LoS mode, you could (as of today's patch) have the missiles crash harmlessly into the ridges. It's not the map's fault if you don't see what cover is available. (NARC is a different problem, but considering it's weight, low ammo per ton and close range needs to be effective...)

4. You do realize that max Radar Deprivation provides a 100% target retention... That's 100%. As in, I carry maxed Adv Target Decay, and I can tell those who run with max Radar Deprivation as I will still lose locks on them nearly instantaneously. Radar Deprivation is actually better and stronger than Adv Decay. You should have no issue breaking locks (unless a UAV is above your head or you are NARCed) if you have committed enough skill points to have a maxed Radar Deprivation.

5. You can push, in plenty of places. The trick is not to rush headlong over the open terrain. Find a hill/gully that provides cover from the enemy but can get you closer to them. I've gotten within 200m or closer, even behind them, without being spotted before because I used the low ground to my advantage to sneak around.


Not all maps are intended to favor brawling game modes. We currently have enough maps that favor brawling and mid range combat, but any map that doesn't favor those combat styles are always revoked as bad maps, such as Polar Highlands, Alpine Peaks or even old Caustic (there is a reason we have new Caustic, with all that "stuff" all around the place. People complained about a lack of cover on the map...).