92 replies to this topic

[VonBruinwald]

shaytalis, on 14 May 2019 - 09:20 AM, said:

Why would you spend 15 minutes on a modern computer to flip a coin?

Why spend minutes when you can do it in seconds!

http://www.virtualcointoss.com/

[GottFaust]

As an experiment: I took it on myself to form firing lines in good spots on some of the "prime" NASCAR maps over the last couple of days. Here are the results:
* 17/30 QP games where I tried I successfully convinced people to form a firing line initially.
* 5/17 successfully formed firing lines descended into NASCAR anyway after initial contact.
* 12/12 fully formed firing lines that didn't degenerate into NASCAR were wins.

Firing lines can be hard to form, but when you do: you'll generally always win since the enemies stream in single/double file into your entire team's guns. You *DO* have to have good locations to form them up though. Pick a solid choke point with a good angle of fire on the "right" side relative to the spin. The other thing is: I only bothered to even try and form a line when I got voice responses during the pre-drop. Firing lines just don't happen or work when you've only got one person talking. Either no one listens or it falls apart due to lack of communication.

Moral of the story: be vocal, be active, and take command when it's possible, but don't try and push for an infeasible objective.

Edited by GottFaust, 14 May 2019 - 11:16 AM.

[Lykaon]

Void Angel, on 13 May 2019 - 10:53 PM, said:

You're not going to be able to stop people from pursuing counter-rotation tactics

Tactic (noun)

1 : An action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.

2: The art of disposing armed forces in order of battle and of organizing operations,especially during contact with the enemy.

In the context of MWo NASCAR is neither carefully planned or artful or organized.

[Lykaon]

Prototelis, on 14 May 2019 - 07:13 AM, said:

It takes two teams to nascar (nascar isn't everyone on your team holding W)
One team always wins
Nascar has a 100% success rate

works 100% 50% of the of the time!

[Wil McCullough]

On threada like this, you can always tell who are the bad fatty pilots. Hint: it's the guys saying they can't keep up with 150kph lights.

No one expects fat robots to keep up with small ones. Most people REASONABLY expect your fat robot to keep up with the slightly less fat robots on your team aka your heavies.

Pilots guilty of crying nascar always seem guilty of a few things themselves like licking their cockpit glass or focusing on the clouds going by when they should be moving. For a "thinking man's shooter", this game sure attracts a lot of slack-jawed players who can't walk and breathe at the same time.

[DjStickyMouse]

Pfuscher1, on 12 April 2019 - 06:22 AM, said:

Nascar is a right side flank or stream, mostly in a circular motion.

Why does it happen?
90% of people are right handed and move to their right.
Watch that at shopping malls/excalators, which are build for that.

When was it "invented"?
- Basically when humas apes started attacking each other millions of years ago.
- Some detailed stories about it are from greek battles 2500 years ago.

Whining against human nature? - Useless and dumb.

When does it happen: Mostly in QP

When to whine about it:
1. When you are self insecure and need to blame others. -> Your fault
2. When you use a slow engine -> Your fault

When do people complain about it?
They just got destroyed because of a lot of reasons and can't deal with their own failures.

QP:
When is it successful?
- 2 Nascars happen: When more people do it faster, than in the enemy team.
- Mostly vs a non plan team.(90% of QP)

What people don't get, that it is really successful in QP.
Everybody won hundreds of matches with it and lost hundreds of matches against it.

If you have a non plan team and you don't use a mic to tell them what to do.
-> Don't whine, your fault

Example
Team A has 10 Nascars, Team B has 8 Nascar and 4 defend/stand around/dunno
Team A wins a 10 vs 4 battle and then kills the rest

When does Nascar always lose?
vs. a solid fire line
vs a coordinated left side counter Nascar(Greeks also did that 2500years ago)

If you don't organise that
-> Don't whine, you fault

When should you complain about it?
- Never, people just think you are a whiny and dumb manchild

Conclusion: Man up, use a mic, set a strategy, be a commander
- Don't be whiny, sheople, beta

This made me Laugh I like this

[Void Angel]

Lykaon, on 14 May 2019 - 08:31 PM, said:

Tactic (noun)

1 : An action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.

2: The art of disposing armed forces in order of battle and of organizing operations,especially during contact with the enemy.

In the context of MWo NASCAR is neither carefully planned or artful or organized.

Argumentation ex dictionary is asinine - you can look that up if you like. If someone is using the terminology totally wrongly, you might take recourse to a dictionary, but when you just type "tactics definition" into Google and then take the summary definition offered because it agrees with your own opinion... Well, you've only succeeded in embarrassing yourself - and someone like me is going to point that out to you. Possibly in detail.

Did you know, for example, that "Google" is not a major publisher of dictionaries? Amazing, I know, but bear with me: if you click on the word "dictionary" at the top of the search results, you'll see that Google is using dictionary.com. Better still, Dictionary.com's full definition includes "the maneuvers themselves." after the second definition. And since I was using the word in the second sense, your chosen source actually agrees with me.

This is leaving aside the quality of your source - if you'd scrolled down past the online dictionary compiled by a sociologist (Douglas Harper,) you'd have found a better source with a better definition: Merriam-Webster's dictionary defines tactics as, "the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat," a much better definition from a stronger source. This is a much better definition as it actually covers the way people (including myself) are using the word, rather than what you want the word to mean.

All of this leaves aside your equivocation fallacy and other argumentative misconduct, but I've neither the time or inclination to discuss your deficiencies (in this post, of course) in depth. Suffice to say that if you want to disagree with me, I ask that you do it intelligently rather than trying the same tired trickery that makes the Sophists a byword for dishonesty and shame to this day.

TL;DR: Trying to borrow authority from a dictionary instead of supporting your ideas is asinine; especially when you're lazy about it.

[Void Angel]

Wil McCullough, on 14 May 2019 - 08:52 PM, said:

On threada like this, you can always tell who are the bad fatty pilots. Hint: it's the guys saying they can't keep up with 150kph lights.

No one expects fat robots to keep up with small ones. Most people REASONABLY expect your fat robot to keep up with the slightly less fat robots on your team aka your heavies.

Pilots guilty of crying nascar always seem guilty of a few things themselves like licking their cockpit glass or focusing on the clouds going by when they should be moving. For a "thinking man's shooter", this game sure attracts a lot of slack-jawed players who can't walk and breathe at the same time.

I've spent a lot of time in an Atlas - seven times out of ten when an assault pilot would complain about being "left behind," they were piloting a 'mech that was at least as fast as my Atlas brawler, yet were somehow left in its dust. If the Atlas is keeping up, you should be, too. But often they don't pick their route properly, and then stop and try to fight in place when a light shoots them from 700m out.

Joke for you:

Q: How do you engage the reverse gear on an Assault 'mech?
A: Shoot him with a Medium Laser.

Edited by Void Angel, 14 May 2019 - 09:53 PM.

[General Solo]

Captain Caveman DE, on 14 May 2019 - 07:25 AM, said:

..and it is dull as f*ck. how anybody can do more than a couple of QP-matches in a row is beyond me.

clearly, mapdesign is to blame. but so are people who repeat the same old stuff, over and over,
and over..
and over³

No way mang, Getting all dat tail, Is exciting!!!!!!!!!!
Get more tail Bro
More than 2 laps, you doing it wrong/inefficient

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 14 May 2019 - 11:01 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

Void Angel, on 14 May 2019 - 09:52 PM, said:

I've spent a lot of time in an Atlas - seven times out of ten when an assault pilot would complain about being "left behind," they were piloting a 'mech that was at least as fast as my Atlas brawler, yet were somehow left in its dust. If the Atlas is keeping up, you should be, too. But often they don't pick their route properly, and then stop and try to fight in place when a light shoots them from 700m out.

Joke for you:

Q: How do you engage the reverse gear on an Assault 'mech?
A: Shoot him with a Medium Laser.

Word. Though to be fair in some cases, assaults do get left behind. Happens more often in qp where lighter pilots can more more than willing to use their teammates as sandbags, but it was still relatively uncommon. I never got left behind when i dropped on an assault.

It's actually quite difficult to get left behind if fatty pilots just follow the things below:

1. Don't afk at the start
2. Don't wander off in the opposite direction the team is heading
3. Don't stand still to shoot at random enemies 700m away
4. Watch the minimap for team movement and shift position when they do
5. Stop screaming for the team to "slow down, you're leaving your assaults behind!" Just tell them to flank from grid square x while you stall them at grid square y.
6. Move in such a way that you're always in line of sight and within engagement range of your heavies. That's around 400m to be safe.
7. If all else fails, drop in a faster mech.

[mad kat]

Nascar is ****. If your in an assault.

However there's nothing more satisfying than yelling (sorry politely forcing your team in Sergeant Hartman style) to go left at the beginning and they do and you meet their Nascar head on and stop it in it's tracks.

Go left private!

Edited by mad kat, 15 May 2019 - 01:46 AM.

[Lykaon]

Wil McCullough, on 14 May 2019 - 08:52 PM, said:

On threada like this, you can always tell who are the bad fatty pilots. Hint: it's the guys saying they can't keep up with 150kph lights.

No one expects fat robots to keep up with small ones. Most people REASONABLY expect your fat robot to keep up with the slightly less fat robots on your team aka your heavies.

Pilots guilty of crying nascar always seem guilty of a few things themselves like licking their cockpit glass or focusing on the clouds going by when they should be moving. For a "thinking man's shooter", this game sure attracts a lot of slack-jawed players who can't walk and breathe at the same time.

Not an all encompassing truth. I do not pilot assaults in the solo quick play queue (save for the Madcat MKII and that is a fast assault). I am generally piloting a heavy mech with at least 70KPH speed. I do not get left behind but I am frequently front row center watching my team embrace a losing plan by not capitalizing on the current situation. Rotate...Rotate..Rotate... instead of turning to catch the rotating enemy in the open.

I still feel NASCAR is idiotic. The go to "tactic" of the simple minded. essentially NASCAR is in direct opposition to the concept of a "thinking man's shooter" because the match maker has already decided the most important factors in establishing a victory when two teams do the exact same thing.

Edited by Lykaon, 16 May 2019 - 06:22 AM.

[thievingmagpi]

Wil McCullough, on 14 May 2019 - 08:52 PM, said:

On threada like this, you can always tell who are the bad fatty pilots. Hint: it's the guys saying they can't keep up with 150kph lights.

No one expects fat robots to keep up with small ones. Most people REASONABLY expect your fat robot to keep up with the slightly less fat robots on your team aka your heavies.

Pilots guilty of crying nascar always seem guilty of a few things themselves like licking their cockpit glass or focusing on the clouds going by when they should be moving. For a "thinking man's shooter", this game sure attracts a lot of slack-jawed players who can't walk and breathe at the same time.

Nope.

Many assault pilots realize that good positioning is important.

Many assault pilots also realize that a non stop rotation is just boring gameplay.

[Wil McCullough]

thievingmagpi, on 15 May 2019 - 08:54 AM, said:

Nope.

Many assault pilots realize that good positioning is important.

Many assault pilots also realize that a non stop rotation is just boring gameplay.

Good positioning is relative. Holding a good position when your team nascars away from you makes it a bad position.

Also, i'm not defending nascar. It IS boring like you said. Also stupid. It's however not as stupid as fatty pilots refusing to deal with the fact that nascar IS a thing that will happen a lot and to take that into consideration when they play.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Wil McCullough, on 15 May 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

Good positioning is relative. Holding a good position when your team nascars away from you makes it a bad position.

Also, i'm not defending nascar. It IS boring like you said. Also stupid. It's however not as stupid as fatty pilots refusing to deal with the fact that nascar IS a thing that will happen a lot and to take that into consideration when they play.

^
this.

I hate it with a passion. but being stubborn and the 1 out of 24 guys to not do it, doesn't enhance your gaming experience, either.
the only solution I see atm is: just avoid the Nascar-queue altogether. and if you play it, deal with the fact that taters gonna rotate, no matter what

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 16 May 2019 - 04:57 AM.

[K O Z A K]

Captain Caveman DE, on 16 May 2019 - 04:57 AM, said:

the only solution I see atm is: just avoid the Nascar-queue altogether. and if you play it, deal with the fact that taters gonna rotate, no matter what

yup, Quickplay IS Nascar. Either play nascar with mechs good at nascar, or play another game mode

[thievingmagpi]

Wil McCullough, on 15 May 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

Good positioning is relative. Holding a good position when your team nascars away from you makes it a bad position.

Also, i'm not defending nascar. It IS boring like you said. Also stupid. It's however not as stupid as fatty pilots refusing to deal with the fact that nascar IS a thing that will happen a lot and to take that into consideration when they play.

Captain Caveman DE, on 16 May 2019 - 04:57 AM, said:

^
this.

I hate it with a passion. but being stubborn and the 1 out of 24 guys to not do it, doesn't enhance your gaming experience, either.
the only solution I see atm is: just avoid the Nascar-queue altogether. and if you play it, deal with the fact that taters gonna rotate, no matter what

Yes, that's exactly the point. It's just fundamentally bad gameplay, and thus "people whining about Nascar" aren't just bad assault players- they're people concerned with the garbage tier quality most QP have turned into.

[Lykaon]

Wil McCullough, on 15 May 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

Good positioning is relative. Holding a good position when your team nascars away from you makes it a bad position.

A good position is still a good position no matter what and should be held instead of abandoned in favor of a mindless rotation.The position didn't become bad a bunch of mindless drones decided to abandon it in favor of rotating.

When there is a near equality in the teams the team that will win is the one that realizes when to stop chasing a tail and turn to bite of the head.

[Wil McCullough]

Lykaon, on 16 May 2019 - 06:27 AM, said:

A good position is still a good position no matter what and should be held instead of abandoned in favor of a mindless rotation.The position didn't become bad a bunch of mindless drones decided to abandon it in favor of rotating.

When there is a near equality in the teams the team that will win is the one that realizes when to stop chasing a tail and turn to bite of the head.

any position gets exponentially worse the further your team gets from you. it's simply because defending it becomes untenable. and if you decide to stick it out and try to hold it, you'll end up removing yourself from the game when you eventually get overrun. it doesn't matter where you choose to fight, a lone assault is food.

people nascar in qp. that's how it goes and staying with the group is a lot more beneficial than going off to do your own thing even if you think you know better. fatty pilots who refuse to figure out how to cope with it are only doing themselves a disservice.

play the game that's happening, not the one you want it to be.

thievingmagpi, on 16 May 2019 - 05:55 AM, said:

Yes, that's exactly the point. It's just fundamentally bad gameplay, and thus "people whining about Nascar" aren't just bad assault players- they're people concerned with the garbage tier quality most QP have turned into.

they ARE bad players most of the time. simply because it's easy to adapt to the situation but they refuse to learn to do it. and refusing to learn is the hallmark of a bad player because that means they never improve their game.

Edited by Wil McCullough, 16 May 2019 - 07:28 AM.

[Voivode]

Pfuscher1, on 12 April 2019 - 06:22 AM, said:

Example
Team A has 10 Nascars, Team B has 8 Nascar and 4 defend/stand around/dunno
Team A wins a 10 vs 4 battle and then kills the rest

This is basically why NASCAR is a thing in a nutshell. The people whining about it are the ones who lack situational awareness and don't move with the team, so they get caught by the enemy and ganked, which gives the enemy a numbers advantage that is hard to overcome. If you're whining about NASCAR, you're probably the reason it's an effective public queue tactic.

Sure, occasionally you'll get that team that rotates so quickly that they end up strung out, but most of the time if the assaults are paying attention to their minimaps then there's plenty of time for even the Dire Wolves to keep up. The problem isn't usually the speed of the rotation but the lack of battlefield awareness on the part of players in slow mechs.