171 replies to this topic

[Captain Caveman DE]

Hazeclaw, on 18 April 2019 - 06:33 AM, said:

it's because you're a toxic player. Once you reach a certain level of toxicity PGI uploads a patch to your game that automatically keeps the circle in the box. For good fun loving non toxic people it's practically impossible

lol. ;D


now, have some sympathy for the devil..eh.. lurmers. they don't have w-keys to expose.. poor sods. maybe we should collect.. 'charity for lurmers'. 10$ to adopt one and you as well as your godson get a fresh keyboard, including a w-key.

oh...... I should stop

[Variant1]

i think lrms should get some more nerfs. MORE NERFS MAKE IT HAPPEN!

only thing i can agree is the lock on cone needs to be changed back, the lurmers at the back dont seem to be affected by it.

Eatit, on 17 April 2019 - 03:34 AM, said:

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking if I can imagine hating lock on weapons? If so yes I can see from the point of view that they take less skill to use. But who cares, they aren't game breaking. I'm not losing games or having all of my fun destroyed by LRMs any more than any other weapon system.

If you are backing me up saying that there are legit disabled people using them and they should be allowed to have fun too then, Cool, thanks man.

They are game breaking, were always a problem. Since their debut premades would boat lrms and roflstop in 8v8 against other teams. Now if i could find those vids (they were most likely deleted) i would show them. The new player experience isint great with lrms, warning incoming missiles behind old caustic hill and getting rained to death wasnt fun. Despite the nerfs its the most consistently used weapon throughout the years. And because PGI thought it would be a good idea to try and copy WoT cancerous arty the game ended up suffering and people quit. Its not coincidence that both games lost their player bases because of idf, and no suprise most forum posts are saying lrms/arty is weak when its not.

thievingmagpi, on 17 April 2019 - 07:41 AM, said:

Don't you understand, they're just trying to have fun bro

Fun at other peoples expense? no one is saying lrms need to do 0 dmg, they just need to be balanced. It all comes down to pgi poor implementation of the weapon system trying to catch up to WoT arty.

Vxheous, on 17 April 2019 - 10:49 AM, said:

That video is recent, from the latest comp league MoR, which is not stock only. Top tier teams have brought LRMs to nuke each other because thats how easy it has become.

Dont you mean always was? if i could find some old beta 8v8 footage, there were games where premades took awsomes with lrms and just decimated other teams. Lrms where always a problem, thats why ecm was released as a stealth bubble to counter it eventually getting itself nerfed.

[Weeny Machine]

justcallme A S H, on 18 April 2019 - 06:07 AM, said:

It's really not that hard...

Usual forum heavy/assault poster:
Lights are über....lag shield, invulnerable, killing an assault within 3 seconds, can't be locked by any kind of weapons even if they do not have ecm...completely broken.

Reply: Why do we see 4-7 assaults per game (in an event at the high end of that range) when they are so useless?


Usual forum heavy/assault poster:
Ummm...because... you play light mechs. Shut up. Imba imbaaaa bwaaah waaah waaah


Point is: The same defense mechanism kicks in when you talk about lock-on weapons or LRMs. Heck, I hardly play LRM boats because it is boring but I have zero problems to get my locks and the direct fire part is pretty sweet and I love my Treb when I bring it out for a swing. Even the IDF part doesn't seem a big role. I mean, the spread is easily compensated by the volume of damage /shrug

[HammerMaster]

Why do people brag about doing well in an ECM crutch meta HBR? 80% of the battlefield don't even SEE that guy! Then cry "WTH I was one shorted!) When the guy has been lasing away all match.

[McGoat]

HammerMaster, on 19 April 2019 - 03:23 AM, said:

Why do people brag about doing well in an ECM crutch meta HBR? 80% of the battlefield don't even SEE that guy! Then cry "WTH I was one shorted!) When the guy has been lasing away all match.

If you're referring to me - I was using 1 hll | 6 erml, no ECM, F LT. This is arguably a worse build simply because of the spread out weapon mounts compared to the compact Prime LT 2x4 builds where all 6 utilized points are high. This build is just fun because of the sustain in soloQ.

This month has been a bit slower for me compared to recent ones, as i've been playing builds and mechs I haven't used in ages in soloQ, but my averages are not far below this ".MetaBringer"

The best parts are when people who are actually good at the game mindlessly put up 1.5-2k matches in LRMs. (Don't skip the mindless part).

Edited by McGoat, 19 April 2019 - 03:36 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

McGoat, on 19 April 2019 - 03:30 AM, said:

If you're referring to me - I was using 1 hll | 6 erml, no ECM, F LT.

This month has been a bit slower for me compared to recent ones, as i've been playing builds and mechs I haven't used in ages in soloQ, but my averages are not far below this ".MetaBringer"

What does that weird HLL+6ERML no-ECM thing have to do with "meta" tho?

[McGoat]

PhoenixFire55, on 19 April 2019 - 03:35 AM, said:

What does that weird HLL+6ERML no-ECM thing have to do with "meta" tho?

IIRC I was the only person to post anything with an HBR in it?

In any case none of it matters - forum clowns are forum clowns and will be forum clowns for as long as forum clowns are forum clowns.

Wut.

[HammerMaster]

I'll stand by my statement.
Not sure why you wanted to brag.

Edited by HammerMaster, 19 April 2019 - 04:26 AM.

[Asym]

McGoat, on 18 April 2019 - 05:16 AM, said:

What? Lasers and ballistics have been nerfed more than once, in one way or another. Just in December with the advent of ST loss/heat spike that was a nerf as those builds when used aggressively are near heat cap.

This game above is the absolute inverse of what Velleronlurmamon want to see. He want's to be able to sit behind his team with no intent of ever carrying anything or actively contributing to a win through learning the damn game.

We may have different ideas of fun, but that doesn't mean that what he wants is good for the game.

I don't; and, if they recorded team damage from direct fire missiles, well, I'd win an award for trying.....

There is a vast difference between direct and indirect fire "value"..... I was several times more effective with a faster lock than without them and now, some light mechs get away with leg humping because of it...... Before the changes, yes, there where a lot of LRM boats "just taking advantage of the missile arcs".... More importantly, they really only mounted missiles and no secondary weapons........sigh. I used to keep a video of a missile boat that mounted one LpL (NTG I think.) And, the end of a match where he was out of missiles and won the match with that one LpL......as a reminder that "balance load outs" should be the norm.....

And yes, some of the energy and ballistic weapons were "slightly" nerf'd..... Missiles were hard nerf'd and ot changed how they function on more than one occasion! So, you aren't wrong at all........it's just that the least effective weapon seems to bear the brunt of a lot of angst because players are just too lazy to mount the hard counters and then complain missiles are OP.....

[Mystere]

Variant1, on 18 April 2019 - 06:14 PM, said:

i think lrms should get some more nerfs. MORE NERFS MAKE IT HAPPEN!

only thing i can agree is the lock on cone needs to be changed back, the lurmers at the back dont seem to be affected by it.

They are game breaking, were always a problem. Since their debut premades would boat lrms and roflstop in 8v8 against other teams. Now if i could find those vids (they were most likely deleted) i would show them. The new player experience isint great with lrms, warning incoming missiles behind old caustic hill and getting rained to death wasnt fun. Despite the nerfs its the most consistently used weapon throughout the years. And because PGI thought it would be a good idea to try and copy WoT cancerous arty the game ended up suffering and people quit. Its not coincidence that both games lost their player bases because of idf, and no suprise most forum posts are saying lrms/arty is weak when its not.

Fun at other peoples expense? no one is saying lrms need to do 0 dmg, they just need to be balanced. It all comes down to pgi poor implementation of the weapon system trying to catch up to WoT arty.

Dont you mean always was? if i could find some old beta 8v8 footage, there were games where premades took awsomes with lrms and just decimated other teams. Lrms where always a problem, thats why ecm was released as a stealth bubble to counter it eventually getting itself nerfed.

I'd believe, and have more sympathy for, the anti-IDF side if LRMs actually dominated and won the WC over and above anything else. They never did. Also, saying LRMs were "used" in the WC is not the same as actually winning the championship (or even just almost).


One last thing ...

Asym, on 18 April 2019 - 05:08 AM, said:

Wait a minute. Do you have to lock a laser? Or, an autocannon?

Any and all weapons should be subject to CONVERGENCE ON LOCK. No exceptions. Get rid of automatic near-instant pixel-perfect convergence. That should raise the skill ceiling required to get the "perfect" shot.

/thread

Edited by Mystere, 19 April 2019 - 04:59 AM.

[Prototelis]

No single weapon has won the WC, MRBC, or any match in Mor8 (well, except for the VOD linked where LRMs were the P.much the only thing doing damage from that team)

I don't know what the **** you are on about with that ****.

Edited by Prototelis, 19 April 2019 - 05:17 AM.

[Xiphias]

Asym, on 19 April 2019 - 04:28 AM, said:

And yes, some of the energy and ballistic weapons were "slightly" nerf'd..... Missiles were hard nerf'd and ot changed how they function on more than one occasion! So, you aren't wrong at all........it's just that the least effective weapon seems to bear the brunt of a lot of angst because players are just too lazy to mount the hard counters and then complain missiles are OP.....

Small pulse lasers were nerfed extremely hard, when was the last time you saw a significant amount of CSPLs in a match? Guess which weight class primarily uses short range light weight weapons? In fact many of the weapons that light mechs use have been nerfed over the years, primarily because A ) they were boated by heavier mechs and/or B ) there were complaints of light mechs being too strong.

Gauss rifles have had multiple significant balance changes including a mechanic change (charge up) and being linked to PPCs for ghost heat (cross ghost heat if you will). They've also had extreme cooldown nerfs in the past.

Flamers have had their mechanics changed significantly in the past.

Lasers have been tweaked for cooldown, duration, and damage. Effectively, all the mechanics that you can really tweak for the weapon system as it stands.

ECM received multiple significant nerfs, primarily due to the issues it being too strong against lock on weapons.

To say that direct fire weapons haven't been nerfed or changed significantly is simply untrue. The reason that LRMs have had the most changes to their mechanics is simply because they have the most complex mechanics (from a programming side) so there is more room to tune them. Lock time, trajectory, direct/indirect fire only apply to LRMs so of course they are going to be tuned to try and impact balance.

You're also conveniently forgetting the many times that LRMs have been buffed and how they've been nerfed in response to the buffs making them too strong for one reason or another. The reason that LRMs have been balanced so much is that a lock on indirect fire weapon is inherently difficult to balance. It's easy to use so any attempt to make it comparable in strength to direct fire weapons has a strong chance of making it the go to weapon. It also means that it will inherently be better at lower skill levels such that buffing them to be good at higher levels will tend to make them overly strong at low skill levels.

A lot of the complaints against LRMs come from the fact that they reduce player agency and generally just make matches less fun for a lot of players. Neither shooting nor dodging LRMs is an action that many players enjoy. Putting 2 tons on a mech as a counter is hardly engaging gameplay. If everyone did it the LRM crowd would just complain until it got nerfed.

[Sjorpha]

If lrms win the odd comp match as showed by that clip that's actually great news, all weapons should have a competitive niche, that's what balance means. I don't see anyone claiming they dominate the competitive metagame, so that would mean that LRMs are fairly well balanced in terms of strength at the moment.

I'd like more emphasis on the long range part of lrms, as they are supposed to be the missile weapon for long range and in practice it's better at mid to short range.

[Mystere]

Prototelis, on 19 April 2019 - 05:09 AM, said:

No single weapon has won the WC, MRBC, or any match in Mor8 (well, except for the VOD linked where LRMs were the P.much the only thing doing damage from that team)

I don't know what the **** you are on about with that ****.

Statements like these:

Vxheous, on 17 April 2019 - 10:49 AM, said:

Top tier teams have brought LRMs to nuke each other because thats how easy it has become.

Variant1, on 18 April 2019 - 06:14 PM, said:

Since their debut premades would boat lrms and roflstop in 8v8 against other teams.

some of which you yourself liked, seem to imply they should easily win championships, if carried to their logical conclusion.

Of course, if such posts were merely only exaggerating to the extreme …

Edited by Mystere, 19 April 2019 - 04:45 PM.

[Prototelis]

Its ******* stupid to equate a weapons effectiveness on it being the sole weapon fielded by a comp team for a championship. That clear enough?

[Feral Clown]

McGoat, on 19 April 2019 - 03:30 AM, said:

If you're referring to me - I was using 1 hll | 6 erml, no ECM, F LT. This is arguably a worse build simply because of the spread out weapon mounts compared to the compact Prime LT 2x4 builds where all 6 utilized points are high. This build is just fun because of the sustain in soloQ.

This month has been a bit slower for me compared to recent ones, as i've been playing builds and mechs I haven't used in ages in soloQ, but my averages are not far below this ".MetaBringer"

The best parts are when people who are actually good at the game mindlessly put up 1.5-2k matches in LRMs. (Don't skip the mindless part).

It's easy to put up 2k mindlessly in my hideyhole when Serial is narcing. You have also helped me enjoy the game one handed so I can have a sammich, thank you for playing 95% of the game for me.

[Feral Clown]

Asym, on 18 April 2019 - 05:08 AM, said:

Wait a minute. Do you have to lock a laser? Or, an autocannon? How is the stabilization system always on for them? Oh, that's right, brawling weapons are "aimed" and work all of the time....... Aimed, seriously? The reticle touches the target and it is instantly hit by the laser (speed of light, right?) So, when you are at what, 50 feet I guess missing is pretty hard.......

You do realize that there are older and handicapped players playing this game.....right? Yes, I am disabled. And yes, the new lock on makes it a lot harder to play this game.... No, I get my locks well enough and I'd like the old system better because I can then focus on situational awareness versus "running around trying to stay on a moving target I should have had a lock on a minute ago !" The lock on nerf was designed to speed up the game.....nothing more, nothing less.... And, it isn't helping me play a minute more or causing me to spend another penny to PGI......

Some of us aren't comp players and a few of us "do our best" and that isn't a reason to "get rid of anyone...." when, the population is so low.........and, about to get even lower when MW5 drops.......

I am calling foul on you playing the disability card. If you have problems then you should look into equipment or something on your end to assist you. PGI has made the game available and accessible and that is where their responsibility ends. It is unreasonable to expect a company to try and account for and facilitate the game around all the various disabilities its playerbase might have. That there is actually a streamer who is quadriplegic and doesn't pull this bs as an excuse illustrates my point.

Weapons in this game should have at least a similar degree of difficulty in use. Previously LRMs were very far from it. There is no legit reason LRM mechanic shouldn't require some tracking effort as it does when you are using a laser to hold a burn on a fast moving mech.

So if you find it hard, well that sucks for you. Cause that argument seems off considered if you are in direct fire mode the lock on is not appreciably different from a month ago. And the tightened reticule adjustment made is laughable and did not go nearly far enough to emulate the same degree of difficulty tracking with a laser or leading with ballistics, srms, or mrms.

To be clear, the game needs to be balanced around the game itself, not the playerbase. If that effects your fun because easy mode lurms are now harder, you make that call about spending your money or accept your previous success was due to imbalance and you will have to adjust accordingly or go away.

[HammerMaster]

Feral Clown, on 20 April 2019 - 12:36 AM, said:

Snip

Hates LRMs.

[cougurt]

HammerMaster, on 20 April 2019 - 03:29 AM, said:

Hates LRMs.

has no concept of game balance.

[HammerMaster]

cougurt, on 20 April 2019 - 03:42 AM, said:

has no concept of game balance.

Show me yours. I'll show you mine.
While I tend to the lore/source side, I made no claims to have balance experience.
I'll challenge you and a few certain people to show their PhD in Mecha-balance. He clearly takes issue with LRM in that frothing post and I'm just Captain Obviously pointing it out.
Who are you mad at?

Edited by HammerMaster, 20 April 2019 - 06:10 AM.