115 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Variant1, on 18 April 2019 - 06:30 PM, said:

Lppc is 5 dmg for 5 heat, ppc is 10 for 10 unquirked

You don't appear to be up-to-date on the current weapon stats.

PPC: 10 damage / 9.5 heat = 1.0526 damage per heat

HPPC: 15 damage / 14.5 heat = 1.0344 damage per heat

LPPC: 5 damage / 5 heat = 1.0 damage per heat

No that's not a huge difference, but it does point out that 2 LPPCs generate more heat than 1 PPC and 3 LPPCs generate more heat than 1 HPPC despite having the same damage in each comparison.

Variant1, on 18 April 2019 - 06:30 PM, said:

Lppc weigh 3 tons vs ppc 7 tons. Not to mention the med laser has burn time vs the ppfld of the lppc that also outranges it
Its all about options. Obviously the lppc is more intended for lighter weight tonnages to fit other equipment/weapons

Merely being lightweight is not a saving's grace. See how Machine Guns were once useless. They were the lightest ballistics by a huge margin but nobody used them because they couldn't hurt anything (I'm talking years ago before PGI actually made them useful). Also look at Small Lasers from years ago before its buffs. A weapon has to have enough bang for your buck or else even a small tonnage investment is useless and better spent on other things.

If you're looking to save weight lasers are vastly better because of having more damage per ton and also being more heat efficient (meaning less weight required for heatsinks). The amount of PPFLD you're going to get from LPPCs isn't enough to overcome the lack of damage overall, similar to the AC/2 and AC/5 (except those get to shoot fast at least and have low heat). Hence my suggestion to reduce the LPPC's cooldown by 1 second. Then it could pack a bit more punch without obsoleting other PPCs because they'd still retain greater PPFLD and heat advantages.

[Variant1]

FupDup, on 18 April 2019 - 06:39 PM, said:

You don't appear to be up-to-date on the current weapon stats.

PPC: 10 damage / 9.5 heat = 1.0526 damage per heat

HPPC: 15 damage / 14.5 heat = 1.0344 damage per heat

LPPC: 5 damage / 5 heat = 1.0 damage per heat

No that's not a huge difference, but it does point out that 2 LPPCs generate more heat than 1 PPC and 3 LPPCs generate more heat than 1 HPPC despite having the same damage in each comparison.

just bump ppc heat back up to 10 then as well as hppc to 15
seems thhose ppc buffs makes lppc underperform by a margin.

FupDup, on 18 April 2019 - 06:39 PM, said:

Merely being lightweight is not a saving's grace. See how Machine Guns were once useless. They were the lightest ballistics by a huge margin but nobody used them because they couldn't hurt anything (I'm talking years ago before PGI actually made them useful). Also look at Small Lasers from years ago before its buffs. A weapon has to have enough bang for your buck or else even a small tonnage investment is useless and better spent on other things.

If you're looking to save weight lasers are vastly better because of having more damage per ton and also being more heat efficient (meaning less weight required for heatsinks). The amount of PPFLD you're going to get from LPPCs isn't enough to overcome the lack of damage overall, similar to the AC/2 and AC/5 (except those get to shoot fast at least and have low heat). Hence my suggestion to reduce the LPPC's cooldown by 1 second. Then it could pack a bit more punch without obsoleting other PPCs because they'd still retain greater PPFLD and heat advantages.

Yeah mgs where terrible back then im glad they got buffed. The difference between them and lppc is that lppc has more range than those options for its weight not to mentions its a projectile rather than burn time for lasers and cqc for mgs. Ac2 and 5 weighs a whole lot more than the lppc and cost tonnage for ammo. a cooldown would be too strong for the lppcs.
If the other ppcs got a .5 heat reduction why not just give the same buff to lppc so it can get back in line in having better heat ratio?

[Y E O N N E]

PPFLD isn't a sufficient enough advantage all on its own. You're talking about competing against lasers which burn for less than a second, all said and done, and whose total alpha size (and therefore damage per second of burn) more than compensates for what little duration there is.

Even with a 0.5 heat reduction, the LPPC still isn't as good because you can only fire three at a time. You can bump its ghost heat group up to 4, but then it just becomes a better option than 2x PPC for every 'Mech with the hardpoints and slots for it. Lowering its cooldown gives it a unique niche without straight-up replacing PPCs.

[CanadianCyrus]

PPC Capacitor is the secret sauce the IS PPCs are missing.
-Light PPC w/Capacitor becomes a 4ton/3slot PPC, 10 heat per shot.
-PPC w/Capacitor becomes a 8ton/4slot Heavy PPC, 15 heat per shot.
-Heavy PPC w/Capacitor becomes a 11ton/5slot dual PPC, 19.5 heat per shot.
-ERPPC w/Capacitor becomes 8ton/4slot Clan PPC, for 20 heat. This is probably not a worth while weapon to pair a Capacitor to due to high heat.
-Snub Nose PPC w/Capacitor becomes 7ton/3slot Short range clan PPC, 15 heat per shot. Still toasty for its short range,

Now some people might say dual Light PPCw/Capacitor makes the Heavy PPC w/Capacitor look inferior, but the Heavy PPC can be paired with a Gauss Rifle and not break ghost heat and deal the same damage as 2 PPC + Gauss while still saving tonnage over using 2 regular PPC. Also 2 L.PPC w/Cap will take up more slots, so there's still the consideration of slot space vs free tonnage. Hell, if they ever add the Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle, that'll make a 38 damage pinpoint alpha shared between 1 I.HGR and 1 Heavy PPCw/Cap for 31 tons + ammo with 600m optimal range and no ghost heat. Outside of a few mechs with +HSL quirks, can they currently come close (or slight beat) that alpha. Although the I.HGR still requires a standard engine.

[Y E O N N E]

The IS slot shortage makes the Capacitor less potent than you think. Can't mount enough DHS to really cool them now, having an extra 5 heat per gun isn't going to help.

[CanadianCyrus]

Y E O N N E, on 18 April 2019 - 09:40 PM, said:

The IS slot shortage makes the Capacitor less potent than you think. Can't mount enough DHS to really cool them now, having an extra 5 heat per gun isn't going to help.

True, but the freed up tonnage can go to larger engines (and potentially an extra HS slot) or even the H.PPCw/Cap is 1 slot less and 3 tons lighter than 2 PPCs, with the exception that 2 PPCs can split their slots between two different sections. At the very least you'll go faster with the same damage and heat.

Edited by Funzo, 18 April 2019 - 10:24 PM.

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 18 April 2019 - 02:04 PM, said:

LPPC: -1.0s cooldown, other stats unchanged

PPC: -0.5 heat, +200 m/s velocity

SNPPC: -1.0 heat (match PPC), +200 m/s velocity

HPPC: -0.5 heat, +100 m/s velocity

ERPPC: -1.0 heat, +300 m/s velocity

CERPPC: -0.5s cooldown

kind of the right way to go but id go a little bit further than that on the grounds that is sinks suck.

i think i would also increase the gh limit by one on everything but the hppc and cerppc. clan can do 20+10 damage without tripping gh, and as far as alpha standards go thats pretty weak. thus all ppcs except the lppc can cap out at a 30 point alpha. the clan ppc being splashy makes up for the heat sink advantages and general lower tonnage/slottage of the cerppc than is options. lppc caps out at 20 but if it gets the cd buff you mentioned, then it makes up for it in dps.

id also like to see a reduced min range on the lppc to 50 but thats just to make it perform better on lights in cqb, that or do some kind of linear ramp up from zero. in fact put that on all ppcs with a minimum range.

one more thing and i dont really like the cerppc nerf. the cerppc boats dont work out on a whole lot of mechs. there's really only a few go to loadouts where it works. i like to think of it more as the bar other ppcs should aspire to.

give massive buffs and blueshield as a counter for pleasure and profit. make ppcs great again.

Edited by LordNothing, 18 April 2019 - 10:43 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Funzo, on 18 April 2019 - 10:14 PM, said:

True, but the freed up tonnage to go to larger engines (and potentially an extra HS slot) or even the H.PPCw/Cap is 1 slot less and 3 tons lighter than 2 PPCs, with the exception that 2 PPCs can split their slots between two different sections. At the very least you'll go faster with the same damage and heat.

It won't go to larger engines because the 'Mechs in question are already bringing the largest number of engine sinks they can. We're already at the point where we're juggling XL/LFE and Light Ferro vs. STD and EndoSteel, but there are simply no further options.

[CanadianCyrus]

Y E O N N E, on 18 April 2019 - 10:25 PM, said:

It won't go to larger engines because the 'Mechs in question are already bringing the largest number of engine sinks they can. We're already at the point where we're juggling XL/LFE and Light Ferro vs. STD and EndoSteel, but there are simply no further options.

Swapping 2 PPCs out for 2 L.PPCs w/Capacitor will save 6 tons for the same exact amount of slots. (and heat) In many cases that's enough to up the engine to get another slot + heat sink. Currently with my MAD 4L (Dual Gauss & Dual ER PPC), I could swap the ER PPCs for dual Light PPC w/Cap and free up 6 tons which allows me to up the engine from a 310 to a 340 and +1 Heatsink in the engine. The mech would have +1 double heatsink that I couldn't otherwise equip. If I go the Heavy PPC route so I don't have to worry about Ghost heat (due to the +1HSL), I can go up to 325 and if I shave half a ton of armor (or halve a ton of ammo), get that extra heat sink for the engine. Both options (2x L.PPCw/Cap or 1 H.PPCw/Cap) are still no hotter than two regular PPCs currently and I can get an extra heatsink with minimal to no sacrifice to my armor and in the end my mech is still faster than it currently is.

Edit: I guess the 4L quirk doesn't work with a Heavy PPC, so never mind about ignoring the ghost heat
penalty.
2nd Edit: I could also switch to dual L.PPCw/Cap (freeing up 6 tons) and swap Endo to Standard Structure, change armor from Standard to L.Ferro (which would free up 7 slots and still be left with 2 tons free) and be able to get 2 more Double heatsinks while keeping a 310 LE, which would make it so I have +2 Double Heatsinks more than my mech currently has.

Edited by Funzo, 18 April 2019 - 11:00 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

You're getting more DHS but also getting more heat than before. You're also now adding in a charge mechanic which will reduce the DPS for non-alpha builds (i.e. UACs and PPCs).

It's not enough to make a difference, my dude.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 18 April 2019 - 11:33 PM.

[Khobai]

Funzo, on 18 April 2019 - 09:34 PM, said:

PPC Capacitor is the secret sauce the IS PPCs are missing.
-Light PPC w/Capacitor becomes a 4ton/3slot PPC, 10 heat per shot.
-PPC w/Capacitor becomes a 8ton/4slot Heavy PPC, 15 heat per shot.
-Heavy PPC w/Capacitor becomes a 11ton/5slot dual PPC, 19.5 heat per shot.
-ERPPC w/Capacitor becomes 8ton/4slot Clan PPC, for 20 heat. This is probably not a worth while weapon to pair a Capacitor to due to high heat.
-Snub Nose PPC w/Capacitor becomes 7ton/3slot Short range clan PPC, 15 heat per shot. Still toasty for its short range,

Now some people might say dual Light PPCw/Capacitor makes the Heavy PPC w/Capacitor look inferior, but the Heavy PPC can be paired with a Gauss Rifle and not break ghost heat and deal the same damage as 2 PPC + Gauss while still saving tonnage over using 2 regular PPC. Also 2 L.PPC w/Cap will take up more slots, so there's still the consideration of slot space vs free tonnage. Hell, if they ever add the Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle, that'll make a 38 damage pinpoint alpha shared between 1 I.HGR and 1 Heavy PPCw/Cap for 31 tons + ammo with 600m optimal range and no ghost heat. Outside of a few mechs with +HSL quirks, can they currently come close (or slight beat) that alpha. Although the I.HGR still requires a standard engine.

youre not going to get a 4 ton/3crit LPPC that does 10 damage. it will never happen.

that severely outclasses any of the large laser weapons which weigh more, do less damage, and arnt PPFLD.

im not saying PPC capacitors shouldnt be added. But the capacitor damage bonus should be scaled differently depending on the base weapon rather than being a flat +5 for everything.

It should be percentile based. For example a PPC capacitor should charge a PPC to do +50% damage. At the cost of 50% of the PPCs heat and a charge time of 50% of the PPC's cooldown. That keeps things proportional.

Edited by Khobai, 18 April 2019 - 11:44 PM.

[CanadianCyrus]

Khobai, on 18 April 2019 - 11:33 PM, said:

youre not going to get a 4 ton/3crit LPPC that does 10 damage. it will never happen.

that severely outclasses any of the large laser weapons which weigh more, do less damage, and arnt PPFLD.

im not saying PPC capacitors shouldnt be added. But the capacitor damage bonus should be scaled differently depending on the base weapon rather than being a flat +5 for everything.

The Large Lasers are 2 slots and have no minimum range and run cooler per shot. The ER Large Laser has more range and both lasers have a lower CD. If anything, just add 0.5 to 1 second cd to the PPCs with they're equipped with a Capacitor.

[Khobai]

Funzo, on 18 April 2019 - 11:44 PM, said:

The Large Lasers are 2 slots and have no minimum range and run cooler per shot. The ER Large Laser has more range and both lasers have a lower CD. If anything, just add 0.5 to 1 second cd to the PPCs with they're equipped with a Capacitor.

again it will never happen. you literally want some IS 4 ton superweapon. PGI will never give it to you.

clans dont even get a 4 ton energy weapon that does 10 PPFLD and they have the best energy weapons. so why would IS ever get anything like that?

theres nothing wrong with PPC capacitors being added if the expectations are reasonable. But expecting IS to get better energy weapons than what clans have is not reasonable.

also charged PPCs should not become the new default fire mode for PPCs. charging PPCs should be an option that you do occasionally when circumstance permits to do a little extra damage here and there. PPC capacitors need a way bigger downside than just adding +0.5s-1s extra cooldown.

Edited by Khobai, 18 April 2019 - 11:57 PM.

[CanadianCyrus]

Khobai, on 18 April 2019 - 11:46 PM, said:

again it will never happen. you literally want some IS 4 ton superweapon. PGI will never give it to you.

clans dont even get a 4 ton energy weapon that does 10 PPFLD and they have the best energy weapons. so why would IS ever get anything like that?

theres nothing wrong with PPC capacitors being added if the expectations are reasonable. But giving IS better weapons than what clans have is not reasonable.

With PPC Capacitors, there's the possibility of upping the Clan ERPPC to 15 damage rather than 10+5 splash. At 15 damage the Clan ER PPC is still more efficient than the Light PPCw/Cap since it does have the same damage per ton (5 damage per 2 tons) and roughly same heat efficiency, but the Clan ERPPC has better slot efficiency.

[Khobai]

Funzo, on 18 April 2019 - 11:58 PM, said:

With PPC Capacitors, there's the possibility of upping the Clan ERPPC to 15 damage rather than 10+5 splash. At 15 damage the Clan ER PPC is still more efficient than the Light PPCw/Cap since it does have the same damage per ton (5 damage per 2 tons) and roughly same heat efficiency, but the Clan ERPPC has better slot efficiency.

but the CERPPC is 10+5 for a reason because 15 would be broken

making the CERPPC broken to also justify broken IS weapons doesnt seem very prudent to me.

[Obiwayne]

PPCs generally need a little love.

For example, it would be more than appropriate to give them reduced damage below minimum range instead of 0. Thats just silly. They also would benefit from a slight damage buff of 1, maybe 2 damage across the board.

Right now the only really viable ones are ER and Snubnose PPCs rendering the HPPC,LPPC and PPC more or less useless.

I still do around 500dmg with my Quad-ER-PPC clan mechs but thats not enough for all the heat they produce compared to a pure laser boat on a mech of the same weight class. And thats just wrong.

[Alienized]

whoever thinks about using a LPPC as main weapon is just doing everything terribly wrong.
combine it with ballistics or missiles on lighter mechs. not every weapon is meant to be the main weapon so dont play it like that.
complimentary weapons have a reason for existance too.

[Gas Guzzler]

I only use Light PPCs on medium mechs that I am trying to squeeze dakka/ppc builds out of because they can't fit two PPCs. If the mechs in question couldn't use 3 LPPC, I would just use a PPC.

[Alienized]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 April 2019 - 07:16 AM, said:

I only use Light PPCs on medium mechs that I am trying to squeeze dakka/ppc builds out of because they can't fit two PPCs. If the mechs in question couldn't use 3 LPPC, I would just use a PPC.

if you run XL engines it wont matter much but if you dont and flip the lppc's to 1 hardpoint per side (just an example here)
instead of using 1 ppc overall, you still have more firepower than losing the single ppc.

theres always a pro and cons for doing things like that but remember, mechs/weapons have not been built to min/max as they had to fit various circumstances each battle without refitting. thats why LPPC's are kinda lost on games like this.

if you built a mech more on balance than min/max, thats where alot more weapons are usable.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alienized, on 19 April 2019 - 07:59 AM, said:

if you run XL engines it wont matter much but if you dont and flip the lppc's to 1 hardpoint per side (just an example here)
instead of using 1 ppc overall, you still have more firepower than losing the single ppc.

theres always a pro and cons for doing things like that but remember, mechs/weapons have not been built to min/max as they had to fit various circumstances each battle without refitting. thats why LPPC's are kinda lost on games like this.

if you built a mech more on balance than min/max, thats where alot more weapons are usable.

Still, I don't think knocking down the cooldown on LPPCs a tad would be outrageous.