115 replies to this topic

[ingramli]

Y E O N N E, on 21 April 2019 - 06:26 PM, said:

So, here's the deal:

If we want PPCs to be hot to offset being powerful, they first need to be powerful. Firing them needs to be an event with a correspondingly potent conclusion. This will never happen as long as they are 10 damage, each. As long as they have the damage they currently do, at the ranges they currently do, and with the cooldowns they currently do, they will forever get out-classed by LPLs, AC/10s, or simply stacked Medium-class lasers. No amount of fancy HUD effects will do this, and even a min-range removal won't do this.

I mean, let's say we removed min-range on the PPC. What does this accomplish? It means I can bring an IS 'Mech which can sling PPCs more similarly to a WHK now, without having to cripple myself up close. This outcome is a direct function of the fact that PPCs are colder than ERPPCs and nothing else; reducing ERPPC heat to the same degree would have the same result, and actually be more even since the ERPPC would also match range if not damage output.

Unless we're willing to let PPCs be more singularly potent, doing bigger damage per shot commensurate with how hot they run, they are not going to be popular choices unless we reduce the heat. The other alternative is to nerf everything else in the game and, while I'm not inherently opposed to re-jiggering all of MWO, that amount of work isn't necessary just to make PPCs good.

Well....you dont want to reduce the heat (or improves the damage to heat ratio), that is okay. There are many other ways to buff it,

- increase the velocity (say 2000 for standard ppc, 3000 for erppc), making them almost hit-scan weapon;
- increase the range (say 800 for standard ppc, 1200 for erppc), making them better as long range weapon;
- reduce the weight (say 2 ton for light ppc, 5 ton for standard ppc), making them easier to carry by lights/medium for hit-and-run warfare;

Plenty of options out there, whether you (or PGI) like it or not, is another story though.

[FupDup]

ingramli, on 21 April 2019 - 07:03 PM, said:

- increase the velocity (say 2000 for standard ppc, 3000 for erppc), making them almost hit-scan weapon;
- increase the range (say 800 for standard ppc, 1200 for erppc), making them better as long range weapon;

Those stats would entirely invalidate the ERPPC because 800m optimal and 2000 m/s velocity is more than good enough at long ranges for almost every situation. Some more velocity is something I want but not that extreme. The range values are fine.

PGI is definitely never gonna reduce the tonnage or slot sizes of items.

[ingramli]

FupDup, on 21 April 2019 - 07:05 PM, said:

Those stats would entirely invalidate the ERPPC because 800m optimal and 2000 m/s velocity is more than good enough at long ranges for almost every situation. Some more velocity is something I want but not that extreme. The range values are fine.

PGI is definitely never gonna reduce the tonnage or slot sizes of items.

You dont like these ideas, fine. Seriously, all we need is something that compensate the poor damage per heat and DPS, which we agree that PPFLD characteristic alone is not enough, isnt it?

[FupDup]

ingramli, on 21 April 2019 - 07:09 PM, said:

You dont like these ideas, fine. Seriously, all we need is something that compensate the poor damage per heat and DPS, which we agree that PPFLD characteristic alone is not enough, isnt it?

I mostly just want a bit more velocity and a bit lower heat, with LPPCs specially getting lower cooldown to differentiate them from other IS PPCs.

[Y E O N N E]

Alienized, on 21 April 2019 - 06:55 PM, said:

so want to have 3 er ppc no ghost heat mechs all time again? wasnt the thunderbolt too much already?
there you go, 3 er ppc awesomes and nighstars all day long

just stop comparing them to other weapons all damn time.
ffs i used a 2 ac2/3 LPPC/mrm20 victor dragonslayer earlier and got nearly 800 dmg >_>
"could do this, could do that" NO ! i want to have different stuff and not same ol boredom.
if you are bored, change things up and dont give a damn if something is slightly better.

i even use a 2 heavy ppc firebrand quite well, combined with mlas and mg's
i bet if i can do that alot more people can do IF THEY ONLY GIVE IT A GO!

You have to compare them to other weapons because, when you want to win, there are definitely good and bad choices for each range bracket and mode of damage delivery.

Firebrand is quirked for all PPCs and has energy heat gen reduction, btw.

ingramli, on 21 April 2019 - 07:03 PM, said:

Well....you dont want to reduce the heat (or improves the damage to heat ratio), that is okay. There are many other ways to buff it,

- increase the velocity (say 2000 for standard ppc, 3000 for erppc), making them almost hit-scan weapon;
- increase the range (say 800 for standard ppc, 1200 for erppc), making them better as long range weapon;
- reduce the weight (say 2 ton for light ppc, 5 ton for standard ppc), making them easier to carry by lights/medium for hit-and-run warfare;

Plenty of options out there, whether you (or PGI) like it or not, is another story though.

I actually do want to reduce the heat, I was just pointing out what has to be done if we don't.

[Khobai]

Why would anyone use large pulse lasers though if PPCs have less heat?

The main two reasons to use the LPL over the PPC now are the fact it generates less heat and has no zero damage deadzone.

But if you gave the PPC less heat and either removed or changed the zero damage deadzone to linear dropoff instead, itd be hard to convince anyone to ever use the LPL instead.

Thats one of the reasons I feel PPCs need to remain significantly hotter than LPLs. Otherwise they just replace LPLs completely. Especially if you remove the zero damage deadzone (and it should be removed because its a very unfun game mechanic).

As a point of balance PPCs need to remain hot. Otherwise they start overlapping too much with lasers. Especially the large pulse laser which is already struggling to find a role as is.

FupDup, on 21 April 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

I mostly just want a bit more velocity and a bit lower heat, with LPPCs specially getting lower cooldown to differentiate them from other IS PPCs.

what youre describing is called a laser. it has more velocity because its hitscan and it has less heat.

you literally want to turn PPCs into lasers that do PPFLD instead of beam duration. And thats not gonna happen. PGI will never give you that. Because it would make lasers obsolete.

again PPCs need to remain hot to differentiate them from lasers. But theres other ways to make PPCs stronger without lowering their heat.

Edited by Khobai, 21 April 2019 - 11:00 PM.

[Alienized]

Y E O N N E, on 21 April 2019 - 07:18 PM, said:

You have to compare them to other weapons because, when you want to win, there are definitely good and bad choices for each range bracket and mode of damage delivery.

Firebrand is quirked for all PPCs and has energy heat gen reduction, btw.

to me, its not about range brackets. not every weapon has to be used in every mode.
to me, its fine if ppc's dont work well on solaris or a tournament.

what they do is work fine in group/solo.
they really dont need to be changed to a state where you will only see high mounted PPC boats all day long and thats whats going to happen AGAIN.



yes, the firebrand is quirked but its not a good mech overall. it performs just fine as support mech but nothing else, good way to use PPC's.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 21 April 2019 - 10:51 PM, said:

what youre describing is called a laser. it has more velocity because its hitscan and it has less heat.

you literally want to turn PPCs into lasers that do PPFLD instead of beam duration. And thats not gonna happen. PGI will never give you that. Because it would make lasers obsolete.

again PPCs need to remain hot to differentiate them from lasers. But theres other ways to make PPCs stronger without lowering their heat.

The LPL currently has 7.25 heat (should be 7.0 or a bit lower IMO because the weapon is currently overshadowed by the LL). I suggested the standard PPC to have 9.0 heat. Still a considerable difference, especially when the LPL inflicts this heat over a duration that makes it easier for heatsinks to handle than an upfront heat spike.

As for velocity, bumping the PPC up to 1,400 is still a far cry from being hitscan. Only the ERPPC would ever get close, and even then it would still be waaaaaaaaaaaaaay hotter than the ERLL and in super extreme range poking hitscan would remain far more accurate than a 2,000+ m/s projectile.

[cougurt]

Alienized, on 22 April 2019 - 02:45 AM, said:

to me, its not about range brackets. not every weapon has to be used in every mode.
to me, its fine if ppc's dont work well on solaris or a tournament.

what they do is work fine in group/solo.

that's no justification for them to remain an overall very mediocre weapon system. it would benefit the game at all levels of play to have more competitive options.

Alienized, on 22 April 2019 - 02:45 AM, said:

they really dont need to be changed to a state where you will only see high mounted PPC boats all day long and thats whats going to happen AGAIN.

a moderate buff isn't going to result in everyone suddenly running nothing but PPC boats, it just makes for a wider variety of builds. would you rather continue to see nothing but high mounted laser boats instead?

Alienized, on 22 April 2019 - 02:45 AM, said:

yes, the firebrand is quirked but its not a good mech overall. it performs just fine as support mech but nothing else, good way to use PPC's.

the mech itself is irrelevant, the point is that its quirks still only bring PPCs up to roughly the level of effectiveness that they should have as a baseline.

[Alienized]

cougurt, on 22 April 2019 - 03:46 AM, said:

that's no justification for them to remain an overall very mediocre weapon system. it would benefit the game at all levels of play to have more competitive options.


a moderate buff isn't going to result in everyone suddenly running nothing but PPC boats, it just makes for a wider variety of builds. would you rather continue to see nothing but high mounted laser boats instead?


the mech itself is irrelevant, the point is that its quirks still only bring PPCs up to roughly the level of effectiveness that they should have as a baseline.

what you basically say is... work on the mechs rather than the weapons? yeah im fine with that.
i literally dont play my QKD-IV4 anymore as its such a ez mode mrm spam all along. should be fixed.
high mounted laserassaults? dont quirk em. lots of advantages already.

no, i rather would see some of the high-mounted laserboats beeing overhauled than fixing weapons, creating another imbalance again.

[Potatomasher69]

Everyone got their abacuses out making balancing changes n stuff I'm over here like "Just make the ghost heat limit three, they'll be OP next week." EDIT (I meant the whole PPC family, not just LPPC)

Edited by Potatomasher69, 22 April 2019 - 05:18 AM.

[Alienized]

Potatomasher69, on 22 April 2019 - 05:17 AM, said:

Everyone got their abacuses out making balancing changes n stuff I'm over here like "Just make the ghost heat limit three, they'll be OP next week." EDIT (I meant the whole PPC family, not just LPPC)

i kinda laugh about the 3 ppc/er ppc/HPPC loadouts, they run way too hot. as soon as you keep them in a fight they are massively doomed. no second plan but running and cool off. no backups to still pull off their weight. one trick ponies are so easy to abuse in a fight

[R Valentine]

Alienized, on 22 April 2019 - 02:45 AM, said:

what they do is work fine in group/solo.

They don't work in group/solo at all, hence why you never see them. IS PPCs as a whole are garbage. They clearly need buffs.

Alienized, on 22 April 2019 - 02:45 AM, said:

they really dont need to be changed to a state where you will only see high mounted PPC boats all day long and thats whats going to happen AGAIN.

So, because you're scared, no one else gets to enjoy an entire class of weapons? Sorry, but that's just not a good reason. There is no good reason that all weapon types in MWO shouldn't be viable. PPCs need a major buff of something. I'm fine with just heat reductions across the board to make them usable. They're so hot right now that not only are they not effective at dealing damage, but you can't even bring backup weapons to compensate, since most backup weapons are energy. Ballistics are usually far too heavy to mount along side PPCs and the massive number of DHS they require. PPCs don't need to be world ending, but they do need to be good.

[Alienized]

Kiran Yagami, on 22 April 2019 - 05:49 AM, said:

They don't work in group/solo at all, hence why you never see them. IS PPCs as a whole are garbage. They clearly need buffs.



So, because you're scared, no one else gets to enjoy an entire class of weapons? Sorry, but that's just not a good reason. There is no good reason that all weapon types in MWO shouldn't be viable. PPCs need a major buff of something. I'm fine with just heat reductions across the board to make them usable. They're so hot right now that not only are they not effective at dealing damage, but you can't even bring backup weapons to compensate, since most backup weapons are energy. Ballistics are usually far too heavy to mount along side PPCs and the massive number of DHS they require. PPCs don't need to be world ending, but they do need to be good.

first of it, i see plenty of ppc's. i myself play them more frequently of late because they arent as bad as alot of ppl want to make em.
but then, i also dont play like most of the playerbase.

quite frankly, im not scared of anything. there is a counter to everything, just gotta find it so stop assuming things without knowing how i play or how i think.

it is not my fault too many ppl do so many damn stupid decisions when it comes to loadouts, playstyle and other things that they always cry out loud whenever something is not going as they want it to be.

ppc's if anything need a minor buff but sure as hell not a major one.


i give you a insight in what mechs i use and loadouts that work for me. including ppc's and other funny stuff but ffs, stop making assumptions that are plain wrong or over exaggerate things so badly.


WHM-6R: 2 rac5, 2 L'PPC's, 4 mlas
Firebrand: 2 HPPC, 2 LMG's, 4 mlas
K2 cat: 2 HPPC, 2 LPPC
MAD-3R: 3ac2, 2 PPC
VTR-9K: 1 gauss, 1 snub ppc, 2 srm6+ artemis
BL-7-KNT: 2 ppc, 5 MPL
DRG-1C: 1 lbx10, 2 snub ppc
BLR-1G: 2 hppc, 4 er mlas
BNC-3M: 2 hppc, 3 ac2


could go on for quite a while. you rather think why i have such weapon combinations and get 600+ dmg plenty of times than finding excuses.

[Battlesblood]

What you all don't seem to understand is the physics of PPC's the minimum range mechanic is because the Particle field is too strong until you get out about 90m, it lacks coherence. The damage PGI PPC's do is laughably minimalist for true PPC's. In the lore PPC's are an immense heat, immense damage weapon. The Warhammer was designed around the need to have a 2 PPC platform on the battlefield [and then they didn't fire both quickly or roasted alive in the cockpit]. The environmental effects of PPC's are horrendous, splash damage is 50 percent of the point of 'Particle Weapons', PPC's AFFECT A LARGER FOOTPRINT THAN LASERS, THAT IS THE POINT OF THEM. Lasers are pinpoint weapons, PPC's are energy flamethrowers/shotguns. Lasers hit one maybe two armor plates in an area, PPC's destabalize the molecular bonds of atoms releasing massive heat that melts all the armor plates in an area and then go on to eat away the myomer behind the armor.
EMP effects are a byproduct of their use.

P.S. PPC's eat their way through the atmosphere. The byproduct of this is heat lightning, which is what you see when the weapons are fired. That's why they're slower than lasers. The fact that the clans found out a way to minimize the coherence problem is because they're 200 YEARS AHEAD OF THE I.S. IN SCIENCE.

The Inner Sphere is on par with us in the 21st century in science because they lost almost all their knowledge through attrition warfare. The Clans didn't. They preserved their knowledge and built on it.

Look at it this way, 150 years ago the biggest leap forward in 500 years happened in military technology, the breech loading cannon. Right now 1 of those cannons couldn't harm any tank we field. One soldier with modern equipment could devastate an entire regiment of minutemen. that is the reality of MWO warfare the Clans outclass the I.S. massively. The only reason they didn't easily conquer the I.S. is they turned warfare into a ritualized form of combat that limits collateral damage.

That's why it takes 36 I.S. 'mechs to be on par with 25 Clan 'mechs. And at that the Clans would usually win, unless up against an elite I.S. unit.

Edited by Battlesblood, 22 April 2019 - 04:04 PM.

[Khobai]

Battlesblood, on 22 April 2019 - 03:14 PM, said:

What you all don't seem to understand is the physics of PPC's the minimum range mechanic is because the Particle field is too strong until you get out about 90m, it lacks coherence

we understand that. weve been debating it for years.

the general consensus weve reached is that its just not fun for weapons to do 0 damage.

even in tabletop firing weapons below minimum range doesnt mean they do 0 damage. it just decreased your chance of hitting with the weapon while the damage remained the same. the 0 damage thing is stupid in MWO and sucks the fun out of using weapons like PPCs.

PPCs, and other weapons with deadzones such as LRMs, should have linear damage dropoff (with a minimum of 50% damage) instead of zero damage deadzones. That better reflects the spirit of the rules from tabletop. Thats the best change they could make to PPCs/LRMs/ATMs, etc...

Kiran Yagami, on 22 April 2019 - 05:49 AM, said:

So, because you're scared, no one else gets to enjoy an entire class of weapons? Sorry, but that's just not a good reason. There is no good reason that all weapon types in MWO shouldn't be viable.

Hes not wrong though. If you decrease the heat and increase the velocity on PPCs literally all you will see is people using PPCs. Because its exactly what happened in the past when PPCs had lower heat and higher velocity. Thats exactly why their heat and velocity got nerfed in the first place. To be fair their unholy union with gauss rifles had a lot to do with those nerfs too though...

Im not saying all weapons shouldnt be viable. PPCs should be 100% viable. But lowering their heat and repeating the mistakes of the past is not the best way to go about fixing them. They need to remain hot. And they need to be buffed in other ways besides lowering their heat.

PGI balances in circles. Weve been there before with the lower heat PPCs... we know what happens. So why go back there? Its time to try something different IMO.

Edited by Khobai, 22 April 2019 - 04:42 PM.

[Mystere]

Give all PPC weapons EMP and heat effects on targets. Why should we limit ourselves to just the usual suspects?

[FupDup]

Mystere, on 22 April 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

Give all PPC weapons EMP and heat effects on targets. Why should we limit ourselves to just the usual suspects?

If you want a PPC that heats up enemies wait for the Plasma Rifle.

Edited by FupDup, 22 April 2019 - 04:58 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 22 April 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

Give all PPC weapons EMP and heat effects on targets. Why should we limit ourselves to just the usual suspects?

Because heat effects are what Plasma weapons are for and EMP effects will not have any appreciable impact short of straight-up turning off the HUD, which will frustrate and alienate people from the game even more than the existing mechanics do.

[Y E O N N E]

Alienized, on 22 April 2019 - 02:45 AM, said:

to me, its not about range brackets. not every weapon has to be used in every mode.
to me, its fine if ppc's dont work well on solaris or a tournament.

what they do is work fine in group/solo.
they really dont need to be changed to a state where you will only see high mounted PPC boats all day long and thats whats going to happen AGAIN.

Doesn't matter what it is to you, what matters is whether or not there is a mechanical justification to bring it. PPFLD builds can't hack it against lasers or dakka in their current state without ridiculous quirks and PPCs aren't at all competent at anything else, so something has to give.

Quote

yes, the firebrand is quirked but its not a good mech overall. it performs just fine as support mech but nothing else, good way to use PPC's.

The Firebrand is slightly above average. Its main weakness these days is the stupidly under-armored arms that PGI gave it, its torsos are plenty durable and it has the right mix of energy and ballistic hardpoints and quirks to bring sufficiently threatening firepower. AC/10s and MedLas, LGauss and ERMedLas, Gauss and mixed lasers, all lasers, PPCs and ballistics...it can do them all with above-average proficiency.