64 replies to this topic

[Security Blanket]

FupDup, on 14 May 2019 - 07:14 PM, said:

Even with fully stripping both arms and some of the legs you'll only get 5 tons of ammo, meaning you get 20 single-fire shots or 10 double-taps.

You should definitely get ammo nodes with uac20s. And you can probably do 5 and a half. Or you could strip the legs Lizzee-style and get 6.

FupDup, on 14 May 2019 - 07:14 PM, said:

MCII-B would laugh it out of town.

The MCII is 90 tons and meta. The maddog is 60 and, umm, not-quite-so-meta.

Edited by Security Blanket, 14 May 2019 - 07:25 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 06:27 PM, said:

Not being fast enough is the same thing being slow, especially in a tactical/strategic sense where that relative difference is exactly what you are looking at.

And that's not where I'm looking at. That's too specific, for a general use of "slow".

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 06:27 PM, said:

The MCII-B vs. Boiler comparison is happening simply because the MCII-B would immediately be better if it got the HSL quirk, which is a problem if we stick to the original topic of the thread and ask "why not do this" about it. That's all.

Well, there's the problem. It's not a "why not do this", but "what if we do this", why is people assuming so much?

[FupDup]

Security Blanket, on 14 May 2019 - 07:22 PM, said:

You should definitely get ammo nodes with uac20s. And you can probably do 5 and a half. Or you could strip the legs Lizzee-style and get 6.

Both ammo nodes together give +8 bullets per UAC/20 ton of ammo, giving you 25 single taps or 12.5 double taps if you take the 5 tons of ammo load.

Security Blanket, on 14 May 2019 - 07:22 PM, said:

The MCII is 90 tons and meta. The maddog is 60 and, umm, not-quite-so-meta.

The Vulture is a specialist that can do missiles well, but tends to suck at anything outside of missiles.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 14 May 2019 - 07:30 PM, said:

And that's not where I'm looking at. That's too specific, for a general use of "slow".

Well, bluntly, you are looking at it in a way that is both wrong and functionally useless, then.

Quote

Well, there's the problem. It's not a "why not do this", but "what if we do this", why is people assuming so much?

Two sides of the same coin.

[Khobai]

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 06:18 PM, said:

I'm not interested in entertaining the option of nerfing it down to 1.

Its just a ghost heat limit though. Its not a hard limit of 1. Just if you fire 2 at the same time it costs extra heat. I dont think its as big of a deal as youre making it out to be. Especially since it would come with a buff to HGR (probably make it use improved HGR stats instead)

HGR is a mediocre weapon. Making it a better weapon sounds good to me. Even if it has to cost a fair amount of extra ghost heat to fire dual HGR its not a big deal really. Its worth it for it to be better.

FupDup, on 14 May 2019 - 06:05 PM, said:

The jam chance of the UAC/20 is the same as the UAC 2/5/10 of the same faction. The difference is jam duration being super long (7.5 seconds) plus velocity and heat issues.

I never said their jam rates werent all the same. All I said was the UAC/20 needs to jam less often.

Why you ask? Because mechs carry less UAC/20s. Whereas they can carry 3-4 UAC/5s and UAC/10s. So when a UAC/20 jams its FAR more devastating. Because you dont have 2-3 other UACs that can fire while one is jammed. Thats what makes the UAC/20 feel especially bad because when it jams youre done shooting dakka until it unjams.

UAC/20s need to jam less often. The less of a particular type of UAC you can boat the lower the jam chance should be. Because with heavier weapons youre less likely to be able to boat multiples of them to average out your dps.

The whole reason UAC5/UAC10 is more effective is because when you have x4 UACs theyre unlikely to all jam at the same time. Especially if you see 1-2 are jammed and start single tapping instead of double tapping so the remaining UACs dont jam up. But UAC/20 doesnt get that option, if it jams youre just boned, which is why it shouldnt jam nearly as much. UAC/20 jam rate needs to be significant reduced.

Edited by Khobai, 14 May 2019 - 11:18 PM.

[General Solo]

Not every build hast to be effective on every mech in IMO
And that mech has its own strong builds
Its near the top of the pile anyway

[The6thMessenger]

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 07:38 PM, said:

Well, bluntly, you are looking at it in a way that is both wrong and functionally useless, then.

Never really had a problem with it.

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 07:38 PM, said:

Two sides of the same coin.

So basically you're just going to read up on what someone isn't saying. Got it.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 14 May 2019 - 11:00 PM, said:

Its just a ghost heat limit though. Its not a hard limit of 1. Just if you fire 2 at the same time it costs extra heat. I dont think its as big of a deal as youre making it out to be. Especially since it would come with a buff to HGR (probably make it use improved HGR stats instead)

HGR is a mediocre weapon. Making it a better weapon sounds good to me. Even if it has to cost a fair amount of extra ghost heat to fire dual HGR its not a big deal really. Its worth it for it to be better.

Mediocre weapon? You must've been using it wrong. It's doing low heat if anything is it's big perk, consistent with other gauss weapons, granted LGR lacks a lot.

Khobai, on 14 May 2019 - 11:00 PM, said:

I never said their jam rates werent all the same. All I said was the UAC/20 needs to jam less often.

Why you ask? Because mechs carry less UAC/20s. Whereas they can carry 3-4 UAC/5s and UAC/10s. So when a UAC/20 jams its FAR more devastating. Because you dont have 2-3 other UACs that can fire while one is jammed. Thats what makes the UAC/20 feel especially bad because when it jams youre done shooting dakka until it unjams.

UAC/20s need to jam less often. The less of a particular type of UAC you can boat the lower the jam chance should be. Because with heavier weapons youre less likely to be able to boat multiples of them to average out your dps.

Jam affects the potential upfront damage, less jams = more double-taps, which is a big headache considering the doubletap of a single weapon is 40 damage, even more so considering that one of them is a 12-ton weapon for clans that could do so at 360m.

Better approach without modification to mechanics is to simply reduce Jam duration.

Khobai, on 14 May 2019 - 11:00 PM, said:

The whole reason UAC5/UAC10 is more effective is because when you have x4 UACs theyre unlikely to all jam at the same time. Especially if you see 1-2 are jammed and start single tapping instead of double tapping so the remaining UACs dont jam up. But UAC/20 doesnt get that option, if it jams youre just boned, which is why it shouldnt jam nearly as much. UAC/20 jam rate needs to be significant reduced.

IIRC jam-chance is 17% across the board for Clan UACs, if anything the lower UACs tend to jam more because you are more frequently shooting them. Sure you're less likely jam all of them at the same time.

But again, no, it doesn't need jam-reduction, it needs jam-duration reduction. If you touch the jam-chance, you are ultimately affecting the upfront damage of something that you could burst 40 damage of. This was the same problem before with RAC/UAC nodes in the skill-tree, until it was switched for the Jam-Duration reduction instead.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 15 May 2019 - 12:37 AM.

[Khobai]

The6thMessenger, on 15 May 2019 - 12:33 AM, said:

Jam affects the potential upfront damage, less jams = more double-taps, which is a big headache considering the doubletap of a single weapon is 40 damage

its not 40 damage. its 8 bursts of 5 damage. its really not as good as youre making it out to be.

again the UAC20 needs lower jam chance to be more consistent. less jam = more consistency which is one of the big reasons UAC5/UAC10 is way better because it puts out dps more consistently as a result of having more guns. When you have less guns they need to be more consistent to offset having less guns.

the only way the UAC20 has a role in the game is if it completely outclasses UAC5/UAC10 combos under 360m. Otherwise theres no reason to ever use the UAC20. It needs to be absolutely dominant inside its limited range band. And yes the UAC20 should be absolutely terrifying under 360m. The very fact its not means something is wrong.

The6thMessenger, on 15 May 2019 - 12:33 AM, said:

But again, no, it doesn't need jam-reduction, it needs jam-duration reduction. If you touch the jam-chance, you are ultimately affecting the upfront damage of something that you could burst 40 damage of

thats the whole point of reducing the jam chance: to increase its consistency. Decreasing the jam duration doesnt fix the problem of the weapon jamming immediately and not giving a good damage return. When you go to fire your UAC20 and it jams right away it just feels bad. It feels way less bad with UAC5/UAC10 because youve got multiple guns going and the chance of them all jamming is pretty low.

honestly RNG jamming shouldnt even be a thing to begin with. Its a bad game mechanic.

Edited by Khobai, 15 May 2019 - 06:50 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

its not 40 damage. its 8 bursts of 5 damage. its really not as good as youre making it out to be.

again the UAC20 needs lower jam chance to be more consistent. less jam = more consistency which is one of the big reasons UAC5/UAC10 is way better because it puts out dps more consistently as a result of having more guns. When you have less guns they need to be more consistent to offset having less guns.

the only way the UAC20 has a role in the game is if it completely outclasses UAC5/UAC10 combos under 360m. Otherwise theres no reason to ever use the UAC20. It needs to be absolutely dominant inside its limited range band. And yes the UAC20 should be absolutely terrifying under 360m. The very fact its not means something is wrong.



thats the whole point of reducing the jam chance: to increase its consistency. Decreasing the jam duration doesnt fix the problem of the weapon jamming immediately and not giving a good damage return. When you go to fire your UAC20 and it jams right away it just feels bad. It feels way less bad with UAC5/UAC10 because youve got multiple guns going and the chance of them all jamming is pretty low.

honestly RNG jamming shouldnt even be a thing to begin with. Its a bad game mechanic.

I'd argue that the UAC5 and 10 are too consistent, increase their jam duration and reduce the jam duration of the 20s.
Reducing bullet drop and velocity for the 20 might also help.

Flat out buffing the 20 and leaving everything else isn't good.
AC20 LB20 need a place too.

[CFC Conky]

I carry UAC20's in my HBKII-C's because when the thing inevitably jams, the mech is mobile enough to get the hell out of Dodge until the jam clears. Otherwise, they make fine paperweights.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 15 May 2019 - 09:16 AM.

[FupDup]

Here is what I would do as a first pass:

UAC/20:
Jam duration reduced to 5.5 seconds (from 7.5)
Heat reduced to 6 (from 7)
Velocity increased to 825 (from 700)
Increase health to 35 IS 25 Clans (from 25 IS 16.5 Clans)
No I'm not reducing the jam chance because the UAC/2, 5, and 10 have the exact same jam chance and they make it work just fine

AC/20:
Heat reduced to 5 (from 6)
Velocity increased to 950 (from 700)
Cooldown reduced to 3.5 (from 4)
Increase health to 35 IS 25 Clans (from 25 IS 16.5 Clans)

LB 20-X:
Heat reduced to 4.5 (from 6 Clans 5 IS)
Cooldown reduced to 3.5 (from 4)
Maybe reduce spread to 0.9 (from 1) or maybe not I dunno
Increase health to 35 IS 25 Clans (from 25 IS 16.5 Clans)


I'm using the CAC/10 as my baseline for how an AC should feel in terms of damage output and heat generation (seriously that thing is way underrated, you can shoot 2 of them indefinitely with just your 10 base DHS and no quirks or skills factored in).

The CAC/10, AC/10, and LB 10-X already set up the precedent for UACs to have a slightly longer base cooldown compared to the standard/LB versions (2.5 vs. 2.25). I'd like to see that advantage apply across all LBs and ACs.

[HenryFA]

How about PGI gives the King Crab +1HSL to AC20 first...

[Daurock]

HenryFA, on 15 May 2019 - 01:16 PM, said:

How about PGI gives the King Crab +1HSL to AC20 first...

They aren't likely to give them to the crab for the same reasons the MK2 isn't likely to get them - Namely, It's already average-to-good in its weight class. (Of the IS 100 tonners, only the Anni and maybe Fafnir are objectively better, easily leaving the Mad2, and atlas behind)

If anything, they should change the Ghost heat limit on the STD AC20 to 2, and leave the UAC20 at 1, opening up some valid competitors to the HGR mechs, IMO.

[Khobai]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 15 May 2019 - 07:02 AM, said:

I'd argue that the UAC5 and 10 are too consistent, increase their jam duration and reduce the jam duration of the 20s.
Reducing bullet drop and velocity for the 20 might also help.

Flat out buffing the 20 and leaving everything else isn't good.
AC20 LB20 need a place too.

Maybe. Balance is comparative after all. Nerfing UAC5/UAC10 would be another way to approach it.

But people tend to hate nerfs and nerfing one of the most popular clan weapon pairings isnt going to go over well. And I think you can get away with flat out buffing the UAC20 because its so damn bad.

I also agree the AC20, LBX20, and UAC20 all need a place.

AC20 should have the best damage per shot, range, and velocity.
UAC20 should have the best dps
LBX20 should be the best at sandblasting. it should do high damage (certainly more than 20) spread out across multiple locations.

FupDup, on 15 May 2019 - 09:17 AM, said:

UAC/20:
Jam duration reduced to 5.5 seconds (from 7.5)
Heat reduced to 6 (from 7)
Velocity increased to 825 (from 700)
Increase health to 35 IS 25 Clans (from 25 IS 16.5 Clans)
No I'm not reducing the jam chance because the UAC/2, 5, and 10 have the exact same jam chance and they make it work just fine

But why would anyone use this over UAC5/UAC10? theres still no reason to use it at all.

You havent made it better than UAC5/UAC10 under 360m so people will just keep using UAC5/UAC10.

UAC20 is limited to 360m. It doesnt get 600m range like UAC5/UAC10. So it needs to be absolutely dominant inside its range band or theres no reason not to go with the longer range UACs instead that do similar DPS and perform much more consistently.

The whole problem with the UAC/20 is that its not good at its role because for brawling you need a reliable weapon and the UAC/20 just isnt it. Its very much a reliability/consistency issue with the weapon. UAC/20 has one job to do: murder ALL THE THINGS in brawl range. If it cant do that better than anything else theres no reason to use it. If you go pushing out in brawl mode and your main gun jams up thats like "WTF did I even bring this"? RNG jamming is very much the problem. It needs to be lessened or removed completely.

Edited by Khobai, 15 May 2019 - 02:35 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 02:15 PM, said:

But why would anyone use this over UAC5/UAC10? theres still no reason to use it at all.

You havent made it better than UAC5/UAC10 under 360m so people will just keep using UAC5/UAC10.

UAC20 is limited to 360m. It doesnt get 600m range like UAC5/UAC10. So it needs to be absolutely dominant inside its range band or theres no reason not to go with the longer range UACs instead that do similar DPS and perform much more consistently.

The whole problem with the UAC/20 is that its not good at its role because for brawling you need a reliable weapon and the UAC/20 just isnt it. Its very much a reliability/consistency issue with the weapon. UAC/20 has one job to do: murder ALL THE THINGS in brawl range. If it cant do that better than anything else theres no reason to use it. If you go pushing out in brawl mode and your main gun jams up thats like "WTF did I even bring this"? RNG jamming is very much the problem. It needs to be lessened or removed completely.

The RNGesus mechanic is a problem across all UACs, not just the '20. The '20 just feels it harder because it takes so friggin' long to unjam (which I addressed) and to a lesser extent because you can't boat as many of them due to their tonnage and slot requirements.

What I was aiming at was basically "sharpening" the edges of a currently dull knife by making them more heat efficient (again, CAC/10 is the golden baseline for AC heat), more accurate (velocity), more durable (because the critpocalypse is real), and far less punishing when the jam does inevitably occur (lower jam duration).

A UAC/20 takes up much less tonnage and slots than a combined UAC/5 + UAC/10, so it's not much an issue if the latter combo has greater raw power at the end of the day. The former however should be much more efficient in terms of resources used similar to how Large Lasers are more powerful than Medium Lasers on an absolute scale but Mediums give you way more bang for your buck.

I too wish that our Balancing Overlords™ would replace the RNGesus jam mechanic but that will never ever happen in a bajillion years so I'm working with the few cards that I've been given.

Edited by FupDup, 15 May 2019 - 02:48 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The RNGesus mechanic is a problem across all UACs,

correct. but its worse of a problem for the UAC20 specifically because you cant carry as many to average out the jamming. When it jams its a complete loss of DPS not a partial loss like with UAC5/UAC10.

Quote

A UAC/20 takes up much less tonnage and slots than a combined UAC/5 + UAC/10

not sure what that has to do with anything.

the UAC5/UAC10 have other advantages over the UAC/20 besides damage. Namely range. Also consistency.

When it comes to damage under 360 the UAC/20 should be virtually unrivaled. Otherwise why would anyone ever use it? Even fasa recognized the problem thats why UAC5s had a min range in battletech. So it wouldnt wouldnt compete with the brawling role of heavier UACs.

Each weapon needs to have a role. if you have two weapons competing for the same role and one weapon is outright better at that role the other weapon will never get used. Thats whats happened with the UAC20 vs UAC5/UAC10

Edited by Khobai, 15 May 2019 - 02:59 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

its not 40 damage. its 8 bursts of 5 damage. its really not as good as youre making it out to be.

It's still a total of 40 damage. I mean how many single-weapon could do that? Burst of 8 shells under what, 0.88 seconds? Yes that is still pretty good, considering that 0.88s is waaaaaaaaaaaay below standard laser duration. Hell, that's even shorter than Clan ERSL.

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

again the UAC20 needs lower jam chance to be more consistent. less jam = more consistency which is one of the big reasons UAC5/UAC10 is way better because it puts out dps more consistently as a result of having more guns. When you have less guns they need to be more consistent to offset having less guns.

No, it doesn't. Likewise it jamming frequently is ALSO CONSISTENT.


UAC5 and UAC10 is way better for different reasons such as better velocity and better range. If anything they would jam more frequently because you are more frequently shooting them.

Again, no, jamming frequently is also consistent. It's inevitable with the system that is made, either we do away with jamming, or or just reduce the jamming duration for the UAC20s because that is what makes it vulnerable.

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

the only way the UAC20 has a role in the game is if it completely outclasses UAC5/UAC10 combos under 360m. Otherwise theres no reason to ever use the UAC20.

Well, yeah. Duh.

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

It needs to be absolutely dominant inside its limited range band. And yes the UAC20 should be absolutely terrifying under 360m. The very fact its not means something is wrong.

I have no qualms with what you intend for UAC20 to be, but that's not how you do it -- reducing Jam-chance is stupid, it doesn't really address the jam situation. One way or another the jamming will screw you over, hell 17% isn't really that high but right now it's frustrating for you. Funny thing too since all clan uacs have 17% jam chance.

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

thats the whole point of reducing the jam chance: to increase its consistency.

Like I said before, jamming frequently is also a form of consistency.

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

Decreasing the jam duration doesnt fix the problem of the weapon jamming immediately and not giving a good damage return. When you go to fire your UAC20 and it jams right away it just feels bad. It feels way less bad with UAC5/UAC10 because youve got multiple guns going and the chance of them all jamming is pretty low.

Well, guess what, Fixing the jamming chance ALSO doesn't fix the jamming immediately. The thing is that, if it jams, it jams, if it doesn't jam then it's not. Jamming is inevitable with RNG.

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

honestly RNG jamming shouldnt even be a thing to begin with. Its a bad game mechanic.

Then argue that. Going on the Jam Chance is just stupid.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 15 May 2019 - 03:02 PM.

[Khobai]

The6thMessenger, on 15 May 2019 - 02:55 PM, said:

I have no qualms with what you intend for UAC20 to be, but that's not how you do it -- reducing Jam-chance is stupid, it doesn't really address the jam situation. One way or another the jamming will screw you over, hell 17% isn't really that high but right now it's frustrating for you.

17% is very high. That means multiple jams per minute even on a UAC20.

And reducing jam chance (or better yet flat out removing RNG jamming entirely) absolutely addresses the jam situation. Since the UAC20 being inconsistent due to jam rate being too high is the whole problem. Brawling is only deadly if you can deliver efficient and consistent DPS and the UAC20 doesnt. Youre literally rolling the dice and if it jams too early youre screwed.

And im not saying you wouldnt have to adjust other stats on UACs after lowering or removing the jam rate. Im just pointing out that RNG jamming is the whole problem with the weapon. So whether the RNG chance is lowered or removed it approaches the result I want: less RNG.

The big difference between changing jam chance and jam duration is that by reducing/removing jam chance you decrease RNG. By reducing jam duration you dont decrease RNG. The problem is the RNG and the fact the weapon can jam immediately. The problem isnt how long the weapon stays jammed for.

Edited by Khobai, 15 May 2019 - 03:09 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 02:50 PM, said:

correct. but its worse of a problem for the UAC20 specifically because you cant carry as many to average out the jamming. When it jams its a complete loss of DPS not a partial loss like with UAC5/UAC10.

You keep underplaying how big a role the jam duration plays. Seven and a half seconds without your main gun is an eternity.

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 02:50 PM, said:

not sure what that has to do with anything.

A lot, actually. A weapon's effectiveness is not just about the raw power, it's about the ratio of raw power to resource cost you pay for that power.

If we reduced the current UAC/20 to only 8 tons without changing any other stats it would probably be broken AF. If we increased the current Medium Laser to 3 tons it would be useless. I argue that the CAC/10 is actually superior to the IS AC/10 despite its burst-fire nature because of being so much lighter and smaller (also having so low heat). So on and so forth. You can sure try to brawl with ERPPCs, but somebody with SRMs or Wubs is gonna shrek you because they are spending way fewer resources and getting way more damage.