367 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Nightbird, on 24 May 2019 - 11:38 AM, said:

I don't know if the total FP numbers reflect this but my FL is about half of normal already.

Which friends list?

Now you have two friends list. One used to be a 'unit' list but the current system has made that just a second friends list.

[Bishop Six]

Well...when im ingame it feels like before. 12 vs. 12 much shooting and stuff.

But yesterday i felt sad for Clanners, 24 hours attack on siege? Uff, thats...not really motivating isnt it?

We need the queue going on IS vs. IS (or Clan vs. Clan) after a certain time when there is no IS vs. Clan possible because lack of players.

We suggested that, several times. Think about it @Paul!

Yesterday we had barely 12 Clanners and about 40 IS players in queue. Unfortunately things happened:

- our group was preferred -> IS pugs had to wait
- the lonely 12 Clanners had to attack all the time
- Matchmaker cant work
- no IS vs. IS (!)
Why???

Are there any doubts that for casual players attack is harder than defense? Then they should be rewarded for that.

[BenMillard]

@Paul Inouye thanks for liking my earlier review of FP bugs/polish issues.

Here's how modern games do UX then UI when they want it to be good. Solaris has fantastic user interface. (It's purely the lack of teammates on whom to blame poor performances which make it unpopular!) I was really hoping that sophistication was going to be backported throughout the rest of MWO's somewhat clunky and claustrophobic front-end (by modern standards).

I've tried to get WoT players from work to try MWO. They love the economy but can't stand the learning curve, so they quit after a month. I nearly gave up with it 3 times during my first year. It's only after 1.5 years that I now kinda feel comfortable in it. That's way too long in the competitive market of gaming these days. I decided to skip Project Cars 2 and DiRT Rally 2.0 after finding a helpful and skillful unit in MWO and love the community in general. The game front-end almost seems like an obstacle to be worked around in order to play the game, rather than a coherent piece of software that enables and eases participation.

The lack of instruction about the myriad reasons why a drop deck can't currently join in with Faction Play is particularly problematic for getting new players into this mode.

The lack of Siege mode in private servers also makes training new pilots for this mode really tough. When I defend one of those rarely-featured levels, I still have to look around the gens to see where the openings actually are. (The 24-hour Siege defense for IS has actually been really helpful for learning the maps!)

Group panel and the obscure icons at the bottom (what's wrong with text like everywhere else in the interface?) along with the bizarre semi-modal nature of Group panel (sometimes you can close the group and do other things, other times it makes you 'unready', you cannot see this state until you re-open the panel, etc) the total lack of help about creating a valid drop deck and filtering your mech list to only the relevant options...it all creates unnecessary barriers to entry over and above the massive bump in skill and map knowledge needed to be good enough to enjoy FP.

Didn't mind losing FP when I got out-played. I did mind losing because I had no idea where I was or which side of the gens I could shoot, what range builds to bring, only having 1 minute to swap Mechs in yet another weird and poorly labelled interface with different conventions than elsewhere (no drag and drop like MechLab, automatic selection progression across the 4 slots unlike anywhere else in MWO, cannot see stat panel for mechs in the deck that those are the weights and loadouts I need to see in order to decide what to bring instead...), drop deck changes not saving even if I completed that with a few seconds to go on the countdown, so usually not even having the Mechs I wanted and being unable to contribute during early trades or getting left behind during gen rushes, getting dropped from the group for the next match because of these logicstics I couldn't figure out, roadblocks to deck building like having to clear then re-spec as different Faction which kept me out of the mode for days until I found a group on the same side as me, not realising I I was 'unready' since that status isn't shown if you go to the Store which then drops you to the QP home rather than the Faction play home.

The list is nearly endless. MWO is pretty clunky even for the most basic modes. The inherent complexity of FP with the even more clunky and unhelpful mish-mash of interface elements multiplies that beyond the patience of new players.

Other things like the Battlegrid not showing whether we are defending or attacking, nor saying the name of the current map, just increases the disorientation for newer players. Not knowing whether to gather 10 intel or avoid 10 intel in Scouting because a teammate talked over the NPC commander/narrator at the start or forgot the game mode text during the fairly long loading screens...or simply getting confused in that 'fog of war' and needing a reminder from somewhere. The user interface really doesn't help people when they need it - when they are new to the mode and about to engage.

Also, the Group Chat window cannot be re-opened by clicking the bottom icons, where the normal Alerts and stuff would allow this, when the Group panel is open. Instead there's a different place, over the far side of the screen, called 'Open Chat'. Disabling the icons newer players have only just worked out when 6-11 people are waiting on them, on top of all the unexplained rules and restrictions and unconsistent interface styles, just makes FP impossible for newer players.

This learning curve is too damn high. It could be lowered a lot by a more informative (and more informed) user interface. Half the battle is just understanding what to do!

Edited by BenMillard, 27 May 2019 - 12:47 AM.

[Deathshade]

BenMillard, on 25 May 2019 - 01:51 AM, said:

@Paul Inouye thanks for liking my earlier review of FP bugs/polish issues.

Wall of text.

The UI rewrites are what killed Faction Play and other improvements in the first place at the very front end of development. Lets not got back there again.

If PGI would have spent more time working on meaningful changes instead of dumbing it down or making it prettier for the UI perfectionists we would have a planetary game that has depth. We are still on UI 2.x now, lets stay there and make this a game that brings meaning to fighting together in the first place. Turn up the events and turn down the grind for new players. If they don't get it, then they need to move on as most of us like the complexity as it keeps the game dependent upon the players knowledge of the tech. You change the tech, we have to create whole new algorithms that kills mechs better than anyone else.

That is why it is hard. "Why the hell did I die so fast?"
Well. They brought a better build. Figure it out or become fodder.

[DropshipPilot]

I am by profession a developer and I developed a resource based mechwarrior league and ran it for 10 years. I appreciate the attempts at bringing the story to life through faction play.

My suggestion is that the storyline be controlled by group leaders deciding on strategy and the results be determined by players executing or failing to execute that strategy.

Yes, that means you need a meta level game. Like when teams could decide which planet to attack.

I loved that, because with my small Kurita team, I could take planets by organizing PUGs and using strategic and tactical excellence. My group grew to 100 players because of good gameplay and results. When that changed my team basically collapsed. There is no chance for me to use my best qualities as a person without the ability to plan and choose.

Specific ideas:
1. Allow players to place their mechs on planets to be used in defense or offense as trials, with their current loadout.
2. Allow groups to "go fund me" planetary attacks with bonuses for wins / kills / kmd / match score and allow the pot for each planet to have PGI, individual and group contributions.
3. Make the bonus pot on each planet an important and visible part of how each phase plays out.
4. Allow FP event rewards / bonuses / salvage to include custom decals / warhorns / bolt-ons / supply cache.
5. Allow the "go fund me" bonuses to be scheduled and promoted. Allowing streamers to coordinate giveaways and broadcasts. Allowing group leaders to organize their players to gain advantage.

[DAEDALOS513]

BenMillard, on 25 May 2019 - 01:51 AM, said:

@Paul Inouye thanks for liking my earlier review of FP bugs/polish issues.

Here's how modern games do UX then UI when they want it to be good. Solaris has fantastic user interface. (It's purely the lack of teammates on whom to blame poor performances which make it unpopular!) I was really hoping that sophistication was going to be backported throughout the rest of MWO's somewhat clunky and claustrophobic front-end (by modern standards).

I've tried to get WoT players from work to try MWO. They love the economy but can't stand the learning curve, so they quit after a month. I nearly gave up with it 3 times during my first year. It's only after 1.5 years that I now kinda feel comfortable in it. That's way too long in the competitive market of gaming these days. I decided to skip Project Cars 2 and DiRT Rally 2.0 after finding a helpful and skillful unit in MWO and love the community in general. The game front-end almost seems like an obstacle to be worked around in order to play the game, rather than a coherent piece of software that enables and eases participation.

The lack of instruction about the myriad reasons why a drop deck can't currently join in with Faction Play is particularly problematic for getting new players into this mode.

The lack of Siege mode in private servers also makes training new pilots for this mode really tough. When I defend one of those rarely-featured levels, I still have to look around the gens to see where the openings actually are. (The 24-hour Siege defense for IS has actually been really helpful for learning the maps!)

Group panel and the obscure icons at the bottom (what's wrong with text like everywhere else in the interface?) along with the bizarre semi-modal nature of Group panel (sometimes you can close the group and do other things, other times it makes you 'unready', you cannot see this state until you re-open the panel, etc) the total lack of help about creating a valid drop deck and filtering your mech list to only the relevant options...it all creates unnecessary barriers to entry over and above the massive bump in skill and map knowledge needed to be good enough to enjoy FP.

Didn't mind losing FP when I got out-played. I did mind losing because I had no idea where I was or which side of the gens I could shoot, what range builds to bring, only having 1 minute to swap Mechs in yet another weird and poorly labelled interface with different conventions than elsewhere (no drag and drop like MechLab, automatic selection progression across the 4 slots unlike anywhere else in MWO, cannot see stat panel for mechs in the deck that those are the weights and loadouts I need to see in order to decide what to bring instead...), drop deck changes not saving even if I completed that with a few seconds to go on the countdown, so usually not even having the Mechs I wanted and being unable to contribute during early trades or getting left behind during gen rushes, getting dropped from the group for the next match because of these logicstics I couldn't figure out, roadblocks to deck building like having to clear then re-spec as different Faction which kept me out of the mode for days until I found a group on the same side as me, not realising I I was 'unready' since that status isn't shown if you go to the Store which then drops you to the QP home rather than the Faction play home.

The list is nearly endless. MWO is pretty clunky even for the most basic modes. The inherent complexity of FP with the even more clunky and unhelpful mish-mash of interface elements multiplies that beyond the patience of new players.

Other things like the Battlegrid not showing whether we are defending or attacking, nor saying the name of the current map, just increases the disorientation for newer players. Not knowing whether to gather 10 intel or avoid 10 intel in Scouting because a teammate talked over the NPC commander/narrator at the start or forgot the game mode text during the fairly long loading screens...or simply getting confused in that 'fog of war' and needing a reminder from somewhere. The user interface really doesn't help people when they need it - when they are new to the mode and about to engage.

Also, the Group Chat window cannot be re-opened by clicking the bottom icons, where the normal Alerts and stuff would allow this, when the Group panel is open. Instead there's a different place, over the far side of the screen, called 'Open Chat'. Disabling the icons newer players have only just worked out when 6-11 people are waiting on them, on top of all the unexplained rules and restrictions and unconsistent interface styles, just makes FP impossible for newer players.

This learning curve is too damn high. It could be lowered a lot by a more informative (and more informed) user interface. Half the battle is just understanding what to do!

I FEEL YOUR PAIN and I’m sure many others do to. All those things you bring up are considered quality of life issues. These issues have been plaguing us for years and affect not only newcomers to the game but veterans as well, which makes it doubly important to get them sorted out to be more intuitive. Personally I would have preferred if those were ironed out BEFORE releasing significant add-ons or improvements to the game. But what do I know?

First impressions are very VERY important in this industry and pgi underestimates the little things and how they truly affect the players. I’ve been asking for an increase to that countdown timer from 1 minute to at least two for I don’t even know how long.. I’m no programmer but how hard can this be to implement?

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 25 May 2019 - 12:51 PM.

[Hanky Spam]

DAEDALOS513, on 25 May 2019 - 11:28 AM, said:

I’m no programmer but how hard can this be to implement?

It requires at least a BUNCH of meetings, ALOT of discussions and then one should hope that the paper that describes the implementation of the timer increase does not get lost.

[DAEDALOS513]

... ya all this faction switching is not going to fly.. all it's doing is causing chaos within the units and disrespecting the loyalists.. just keep it clan vs IS and build story lines around that..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 25 May 2019 - 01:43 PM.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

This new system is what I would have wanted when I started playing FP : The ability to unlock the rank 2 mech slots of every Faction, without having to suffer 10 probation matches (and a 25% Loyalty penalty) each time I swap Faction.

So it's a good system for new players trying to unlock their first free Mech Bays, but still a downright horrible one for players who want to specialize in a single Faction (for whatever reason).

Example of a better solution :
- Freelancers earn a bonus XP and bonus Cbill but no loyalty points : Great for new players buying and leveling their first mechs.
- Mercenaries earn loyalty points for the Faction they're fighting for : Great for unlocking the early mech bays from every Faction.
- Loyalist stick to a single Faction that they can use for any conflict, but suffer 10 probation matches and a 25% loyalty penalty if they ever break their permanent single Faction contract : Great for... Loyalists.

[VitriolicViolet]

can we just go back to Phase 2?

Back then it was common to see 100 on each side in queue, even during Australian 'primetime'.
For me everything since The Dong was introduced has just made the mode increasingly worse, pre-long tom i played pretty much only CW and i played a lot of it.

After 1 Bukkit i finally gave up Kurita loyalty, seems like i was right in assuming things would just degrade for loyalists. also i dont ever play CW as Clan, even in QP i dont really play Clan unless its Onion IICs.

[EthanisAwsome]

Know i will make this plane and clear from my thinking i think PGI is delibretly trying to kill MWO so then when MW5 comes out more people will play it. Know in the grand scheme of things this is a horribly long term goal because it does nothing more then ruin there own image, but from experiences from the past PGI doesn't look at the big picture or at long term affects. For examp they made the group qeue for every group from 2 to 12 with no real balance now if you are trying to get a friend into the game and go in a 2 man group more often then not it is going to take forever to get a match and when you do you have a pretty good chance of meeting a 12 man on the other team and getting crushed and now your friend thinks it is garbage or boring game. So i belive PGIs next target for destruction is going to be Solaris in june then Quick play in july. The writing is on the wall and MWO is over in PGIs minds and alot of players minds now as well

[MischiefSC]

VitriolicViolet, on 25 May 2019 - 02:17 PM, said:

can we just go back to Phase 2?

Back then it was common to see 100 on each side in queue, even during Australian 'primetime'.
For me everything since The Dong was introduced has just made the mode increasingly worse, pre-long tom i played pretty much only CW and i played a lot of it.

After 1 Bukkit i finally gave up Kurita loyalty, seems like i was right in assuming things would just degrade for loyalists. also i dont ever play CW as Clan, even in QP i dont really play Clan unless its Onion IICs.

Pinned topic top of this forum from Paul on permanent faction loyalty. I think it's the basis for some changes that'll make a lot of people happy. We don't have the population to do the 16 fronts thing anymore but if there's a good foundation for loyalists and FE in the end gets more engaging maybe we can get people back.

[Spheroid]

MischiefSC, on 26 May 2019 - 07:38 AM, said:

Pinned topic top of this forum from Paul on permanent faction loyalty. I think it's the basis for some changes that'll make a lot of people happy. We don't have the population to do the 16 fronts thing anymore but if there's a good foundation for loyalists and FE in the end gets more engaging maybe we can get people back.

The bucket problem is only if you try to fight 16 fronts simultaneously. What we have now needs to be adapted and changed. I don't see why there is any need for human scripted events at all. Its silly and a waste of resources. If a group of Nova Cats shows up in NA primetime then make that group of Nova Cats(and allies) eligible for a battle against Smoke Jags. If five minutes later a group of Wolves shows up associate that 12 v 12 with FRR or something similar. There is no need to have two days of one conflict or 24 hours of one game mode. Variety is the spice of life.

Keep the alliance system and give each front its own progress bar. That's all that is required. Remove PGI created events and lore, they are unneeded. The choice of planet should be from loyalists voting at a war council and lore supplies itself. Kentares and Turtle Bay don't need PGI invented fluff it already exists and would be broadcast by grognards.

Edited by Spheroid, 26 May 2019 - 08:48 AM.

[Charles Sennet]

Now we're in Conquest hell. I could only take this mode in small doses before but now... yikes!

[Hanky Spam]

I wonder what will be the next mode.
My masochistic side wants to get tortured by 48h Incursion... any chance?

Edited by Hanky Spam, 26 May 2019 - 12:16 PM.

[DAEDALOS513]

why oh why ,, a second day of conquest ? i feel like i'm in one of the level's of hell in dante's inferno..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 26 May 2019 - 12:05 PM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Hanky Spam, on 26 May 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

I wonder what will be the next mode.
My sadistic side wants to get tortured by 48h Incursion... any chance?

you KNOW it will happen... just wait for it.
maybe they make it a 72h incursion-special... by popular demand.

[Willard Phule]

DAEDALOS513, on 26 May 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

why oh why ,, a second day of conquest ? i feel like i'm in one of the level's of hell in dante's inferno..

Because that's the model they set a long time ago? Game breaking change right before a 3 day weekend where they all hide in a bunker without internet for the duration.

[DAEDALOS513]

Willard Phule, on 26 May 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:

Because that's the model they set a long time ago? Game breaking change right before a 3 day weekend where they all hide in a bunker without internet for the duration.

That's actually funny.. and makes sense at the same time. Isn't that what politicians do when they pass constitution breaking legislation?

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 26 May 2019 - 01:07 PM.

[245 Trioxin]

This is perhaps the third or fourth iteration of this message; I kept on deleting and restarting it.

All data was sourced from Jarl's List at https://leaderboard.isengrim.org/stats unless otherwise noted.

MWO is a niche game, let's be honest.

At Season One, it had approximately 42,500 players. As of the last Jarl's List update, there are now approximately 24,500 players. This results in a reduction of active players by 42.35%

During this same time-period, the new players have shrunk from around 12,500 at the end of Season One to only 2,500. This is a flat 80% reduction in new players.

I have been playing the game for not quite six months... and I am sorry to say that when MW5 comes out, I will not be playing further due to your current decisions regarding faction play.

This game appealed to me, because I've been a fan of the franchise since it made its first appearance. I've played all the video games from Crescent Hawk's Inception to the present day, and even a bit further as I purchased MW5 on pre-order. In fact, that's precisely how I came into the MWO fold; I figured that I'd spend on MW5 and give MWO a shot at the same time.

This game has a staggering learning curve. You must resign yourself to be someone else's ablative armor for quite a while, all the while bettering yourself. Shout-out to MS-T for teaching me a heck of a lot in a short period of time.
Because of them (please note, this was my OWN decision; I was NOT required to do this!) I put down several hundred more dollars to buy mechs and to convert XP into GXP so I could field a mech that wasn't sub-standard. Given my lack of experience, I did not want to double-ding my Unit mates by bringing in a sub-par mech paired with a sub-par pilot. I enjoy playing with my friends, and I had a hell of a good time doing it.

PGI has changed all that in one swell foop.
I'm not going to reiterate everything folks have said before, as their words carry far more weight than mine. All I can say is that the game is, when you look at the numbers.. dying and that PGI is actively adding chlorine to their own gene-pool by making the choices they have.

The matchmaking system for PubDrops is broken at best.
The choices regarding Faction Play seems to be the result of a large committee living in an echo-chamber, as it certainly bears little resemblance to what has been requested on the forums or the commentary from the PTR servers.

The game is demonstrably unfriendly to new players, and now PGI is making decisions that are cutting into the hard-core player base? I'm afraid I must agree with EthanIsAwesome: " The writing is on the wall and MWO is over in PGIs minds and alot of players minds now as well "

To the parent division MS, and to my Unit MS-T.. I apologize. I held out as long as I could, but these changes... if they're not fixed by the time MW5 comes out, I don't see myself continuing on.

But until then, I'll happily be your ablative armor (and sometimes target).

Who knows? Maybe they'll fix it. Maybe they'll find a way to grow the player base again. But... I'm not going to hold breath.

-- 245 Trioxin