141 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

So i just used 2x UAC5 + 2x UAC10 on my Seipnir, and It is hot as hell. I don't get it, this is basically like my build on my MCII-B, and if anything the MCII-B is waaay faster.

I get that it's IS-tech, but surely the IS UACs should have been just a bit cooler than Clan UACs because it's harder to put them due to tonnage and critical slots constraints.

What do you think, IS UAC too hot or what?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 22 May 2019 - 01:23 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

cXL vs IS STD and thus a difference of like 6-8DHS.

How is that at all surprising?

And yes IS UAC10 is too hot for its tonnage. Many have been saying that for ages now.

[LordNothing]

they dont seem as hot as the clan ones but i think their numbers are roughly the same. i think its just that is cant carry as many as the clan can. they are certainly less jam happy and generally more user friendly though.

justcallme A S H, on 22 May 2019 - 01:26 AM, said:

cXL vs IS STD and thus a difference of like 6-8DHS.

How is that at all surprising?

And yes IS UAC10 is too hot for its tonnage. Many have been saying that for ages now.

these days for me its either lfe or standard. if i use xl its in lights, fast mediums, or a hand full of super mobility builds that i never use. and yes that does mean less space for sinks.

i kind of want to make the uac (10/20) great again. i suggested alternate mechanics for the higher end uacs. since they are burst fire up to double the shell count, you can employ a partial burst mechanic with a ramping jam chance. you can simply hold to fire and release at any time to stop. then do a partial or full cd cycle based on the number of rounds used. a jam would be a 2-3x cd cycle. clan uac20 can pump out 8 rounds, but you can stop after 5 or 6 to find the sweet spot between increased damage and frequent jams. give you a bit finer amount of control than just double or single taps, and reward fire discipline.

Edited by LordNothing, 22 May 2019 - 02:35 AM.

[Acersecomic]

Yeah, IS UACs generate fton much more heat than clans... resulting in way more alpha resulting in way too much kill potential...
I'd love to see not ghost heat for boating tons of Ultras and regular ACs, but recoil and bullet spread the more of ballistics you load and fire at the same time.

[AncientRaig]

Something to keep in mind with UACs is that the double tap *does* trigger ghost heat thresholds if you fire them too quickly. So while on paper 2 UAC10s are fine, in reality you're tripping the threshold for AC/10 ghost heat unless you delay your fire by the half a second or so that it takes to not trigger ghost heat.

[- World Eater -]

Go 4 LBX10s or 4 UAC5s

[Willard Phule]

Acersecomic, on 22 May 2019 - 06:04 AM, said:

Yeah, IS UACs generate fton much more heat than clans... resulting in way more alpha resulting in way too much kill potential...
I'd love to see not ghost heat for boating tons of Ultras and regular ACs, but recoil and bullet spread the more of ballistics you load and fire at the same time.

I'm sure that the IS Double Heat Sinks taking up 3 slots has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. No way could clan AC builds pack enough sinks to make the heat negligible. Nope, Clams OP. Nerf!

[Catnium]

My KDK-3 only uses only 15 heatsinks to make the Ultra Ac10/5 combo work perfectly.
10 from the engine and 5 in the engine.

I think the problem for IS is that it usually cant fit an engine big enough to offer 5 extra slots for heatsinks.
But honestly i think IS can still do it comfortably with one or 2 less D heatsinks.

something you can prob fix with spending some more skill points on heat management nodes in offence and operations.

Edited by Catnium, 22 May 2019 - 04:42 PM.

[FupDup]

The UAC/10 for both sides will give you 3.5 heat currently. The IS AC/10 is 2.75, CAC/10 is 2.0, and both LB 10-X are 2.0.

Could probably be changed to 2.75-3.0 for IS UAC/10 and 2.0-2.25 for IS AC/10.

[Khobai]

Its caused by ISDHS being bad. they take up 3 crit slots instead of 2. Thats always been one of the biggest problems PGI refuses to fix.

And the CXL engine is also one of the biggest problems. Because it allows clans to jack up their engine ratings to fit even more heatsinks.

ES/FF is also a contributing problem because IS get even less crit slots for heatsinks if they use ES/FF because the IS versions take up an absurd number of crit slots. And if IS doesnt use ES it has to sacrifice engine rating to make up the tonnage loss which means less internal heatsinks. So no matter what IS is getting screwed with less heatsinks. They cant win.

It all comes back to PGI not properly balancing the tech fundamentals of engines, heatsinks, and ES/FF.

FupDup, on 22 May 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:

The UAC/10 for both sides will give you 3.5 heat currently. The IS AC/10 is 2.75, CAC/10 is 2.0, and both LB 10-X are 2.0.

Could probably be changed to 2.75-3.0 for IS UAC/10 and 2.0-2.25 for IS AC/10.

no. the problem isnt that the IS UAC10 generating too much heat.

the problem is that ISDHS are so much worse than CDHS. the problem is a lack of dissipation not too much heat generation.

besides lowering heat on the UAC10 only helps the UAC10. it doesnt fix all the other IS weapons that get screwed because ISDHS are worse than CDHS.

buffing ISDHS fixes the problem across the board for all IS loadouts.

Edited by Khobai, 22 May 2019 - 06:19 PM.

[Horseman]

I suspect OP accidentally hit the Ghost Heat threshold. Made the same mistake myself a few times.

[Willard Phule]

Catnium, on 22 May 2019 - 04:39 PM, said:

My KDK-3 only uses only 15 heatsinks to make the Ultra Ac10/5 combo work perfectly.
10 from the engine and 5 in the engine.

I think the problem for IS is that it usually cant fit an engine big enough to offer 5 extra slots for heatsinks.
But honestly i think IS can still do it comfortably with one or 2 less D heatsinks.

something you can prob fix with spending some more skill points on heat management nodes in offence and operations.

So...using a Clan XL400 (lighter and less spaces than any 400 the IS can field) and having all heatsinks internal to the engine doesn't make a difference. I see. Better go back and look at how sinks work again.

Khobai, on 22 May 2019 - 06:06 PM, said:

Its caused by ISDHS being bad. they take up 3 crit slots instead of 2. Thats always been one of the biggest problems PGI refuses to fix.

And the CXL engine is also one of the biggest problems. Because it allows clans to jack up their engine ratings to fit even more heatsinks.

ES/FF is also a contributing problem because IS get even less crit slots for heatsinks if they use ES/FF because the IS versions take up an absurd number of crit slots. And if IS doesnt use ES it has to sacrifice engine rating to make up the tonnage loss which means less internal heatsinks. So no matter what IS is getting screwed with less heatsinks. They cant win.

It all comes back to PGI not properly balancing the tech fundamentals of engines, heatsinks, and ES/FF.



no. the problem isnt that the IS UAC10 generating too much heat.

the problem is that ISDHS are so much worse than CDHS. the problem is a lack of dissipation not too much heat generation.

besides lowering heat on the UAC10 only helps the UAC10. it doesnt fix all the other IS weapons that get screwed because ISDHS are worse than CDHS.

buffing ISDHS fixes the problem across the board for all IS loadouts.

Make ISDHS do twice the heatsinking of the CDHS...that'll learn 'em.

[VonBruinwald]

Willard Phule, on 23 May 2019 - 04:09 AM, said:

Make ISDHS do twice the heatsinking of the CDHS...that'll learn 'em.

50% more as they take up 50% more space.

Personally I think giving them the same dissipation but 50% more capacity is a better option. IS mech's generally have lower alpha and higher DPS. Increasing their capacity makes them better at DPS builds and helps differentiate the tech bases.

Addition:

As for UACs being hot; I run twin 10's on my DAO BREAKER and can manage the heat pretty well. The trick is to not spam the double tap and trigger your own ghost heat. Time your firing to increase your ROF instead of making the double-tap an alpha strike. Also, if you're running LAMS learn how to toggle it*. SHS... well that's just me, you may want to opt for dubs.

*For toggling LAMS/Stealth/EC(C)M; set one of your mouse keys to "toggle weapon group", at start of the match highlight the selected system you want to be able to toggle and you're set.

Edited by VonBruinwald, 23 May 2019 - 04:39 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

VonBruinwald, on 23 May 2019 - 04:23 AM, said:

50% more as they take up 50% more space.

Personally I think giving them the same dissipation but 50% more capacity is a better option. IS mech's generally have lower alpha and higher DPS. Increasing their capacity makes them better at DPS builds and helps differentiate the tech bases.

IIRC DHS only give 40% more dissipation, so that's like only supposed to be at either 60 - 80% dissipation. Which I will be fine with. That being said, consider that Clan tech IS hotter by comparison which -- supposedly -- negates their dissipation.

I think it's problematic treating the heat trend of the techbases 1:1 with each other, rather it would be more prudent to just base it with respect to their own builds.

For example, the trial Nightstar of 2x UAC5 + 2x UAC10 build: https://mwo.smurfy-n...b#i=697&l=stock , it would be prudent to at least have simmilar sustained DPS like that of MCII-B 2x UAC5 + 2x UAC10.

I mean honestly look at that, the Mad-Cat 2 is at 61 KPH without speed-tweak and has 6 extra heat-sinks to boot, which has 10.24 sustained DPS. The Night star, that walks at 46 KPH is at lesser 6.45 Sustained DPS. what kind of BS is that? A nice 8-9 sustained DPS would be nice. While yes i suppose that would be +50% dissipation from DHS, but perhaps we could just get +40% from baseline IS dissipation from it's heatsinks, Single/Standard or Double?

Khobai, on 22 May 2019 - 06:06 PM, said:

buffing ISDHS fixes the problem across the board for all IS loadouts.

I'd rather we just buff the base dissipation, which means that at IS SHS would be buffed as well and would have a less gaping chasm in between.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 May 2019 - 05:12 AM.

[Horseman]

VonBruinwald, on 23 May 2019 - 04:23 AM, said:

As for UACs being hot; I run twin 10's on my DAO BREAKER and can manage the heat pretty well. The trick is to not spam the double tap and trigger your own ghost heat. Time your firing to increase your ROF instead of making the double-tap an alpha strike. Also, if you're running LAMS learn how to toggle it*. SHS... well that's just me, you may want to opt for dubs.

In my experience, a 2xUAC10 RFL can still get toasty over time even with dubs. (BTW: https://mech.nav-alp...a63420e9_RFL-3N - more leg armor, better heat management, fits on any RFL other than 8D )
Dubs are mandatory unless you're running some kind of bizzarre assault energy boat - where the sheer amount of SHS pushes them substantially above DHS - or some kind of ultra-cold Gauss/LBX build.

[Willard Phule]

VonBruinwald, on 23 May 2019 - 04:23 AM, said:

50% more as they take up 50% more space.

Personally I think giving them the same dissipation but 50% more capacity is a better option. IS mech's generally have lower alpha and higher DPS. Increasing their capacity makes them better at DPS builds and helps differentiate the tech bases.

Addition:

As for UACs being hot; I run twin 10's on my DAO BREAKER and can manage the heat pretty well. The trick is to not spam the double tap and trigger your own ghost heat. Time your firing to increase your ROF instead of making the double-tap an alpha strike. Also, if you're running LAMS learn how to toggle it*. SHS... well that's just me, you may want to opt for dubs.

*For toggling LAMS/Stealth/EC(C)M; set one of your mouse keys to "toggle weapon group", at start of the match highlight the selected system you want to be able to toggle and you're set.

So, the whole concept of the Clans continuing to improve technology while the Inner Sphere beat itself back to the stone age really doesn't matter, huh?

I've got an idea. Since all the new players tend to go IS first because the mechs are cheaper, how about we make everything IS weigh half of what Clan stuff does, give it half the heat and twice the damage. That'll balance it nicely.

At least until you can afford Clan stuff, then I suppose we need to change it the other direction.

[The6thMessenger]

Willard Phule, on 23 May 2019 - 05:44 AM, said:

So, the whole concept of the Clans continuing to improve technology while the Inner Sphere beat itself back to the stone age really doesn't matter, huh?

I've got an idea. Since all the new players tend to go IS first because the mechs are cheaper, how about we make everything IS weigh half of what Clan stuff does, give it half the heat and twice the damage. That'll balance it nicely.

At least until you can afford Clan stuff, then I suppose we need to change it the other direction.

If you want to roleplay true to the lore, you should play TT or the HBS Battletech with Roguetech, or play the old MechWarriors. They have good reason to make clans OP, not here though, it's a multiplayer game that needs a semblance of balance.

CBills is just for the grind to extend the playtime, in the end it won't matter.

[VonBruinwald]

Willard Phule, on 23 May 2019 - 05:44 AM, said:

So, the whole concept of the Clans continuing to improve technology while the Inner Sphere beat itself back to the stone age really doesn't matter, huh?

When we start enforcing Zellbriggen (which includes deliberately moving outside the enemies LOS/Poking/hill-humping), BV, No Clan Mercs and Lance vs. Stars then we can start looking at unbalancing the 'tech. Until then we have to accept there should be some parity between the tech bases.

Personally I think we need to remove clans. They're unbalanced from the get go. But that won't happen.

So I say go back to the drawing board:
Look at the TT stats and realise that they're for a weapons system over a 10 second period, not for alpha strikes. Then rebalance it so IS have the superior Alpha and Clans have the superior DPS. It fits more with the lore as the IS are generally sneaky ambushers and Clanners go for their duels. It also has the benefit of giving the IS the edge in the pokey game so those superior Clan mechs are worn down once they push into brawl range where they have the advantage.

[Bloodwitch]

VonBruinwald, on 23 May 2019 - 04:23 AM, said:

50% more as they take up 50% more space.

Whoa, then make IS DHS 50% heavier as well.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 22 May 2019 - 06:06 PM, said:

Its caused by ISDHS being bad. they take up 3 crit slots instead of 2. Thats always been one of the biggest problems PGI refuses to fix.

justcallme A S H, on 22 May 2019 - 01:26 AM, said:

cXL vs IS STD and thus a difference of like 6-8DHS.

Given the OP is talking about UAC10/5 x 2 build. Which is

SLEIPNIR
vs
MCII-B

There are NO DHS in the Sleip build, at all, and 6 more on the MCII-B. I wonder then what does 3 slot-space IS DHS have to do with the discussion at hand?

Don't fear - I think might know the answer.


Nothing

Edited by justcallme A S H, 23 May 2019 - 07:25 AM.