68 replies to this topic

[evilauthor]

Karl Streiger, on 01 July 2019 - 08:48 PM, said:

this totally depends on space available. take for example my car a nice compact three cylinder engine and there is much space there to mount a bigger engine. because the frame (P208) is capable of havinv bigger engines.

however no Mech nor combat vehicle will have spare volume for engine and movement train. because they are already designed to have only this size of enigine. yes you should have extra space for mounting a smaller engine, although i don't think the reactor core gets smaller, you need more bulk for power generation and heat sinks and fuel when the core produces more power.

but if you want to have extra space for smaller engines you should have not a single slot more over the "factory" build.
so the PPzc cicada would not have any space to mount a ppc unless its welded on top with independent power/ammunition supply.

IIRC, official variants like the PPC Cicada are in fact existing mechs that have been rebuilt by a faction more or less en masse to a common plan or mass produced redesigns made in a factory.

On the fly custom jobs are much rarer and often suffer from "quirks" that negatively impact performance due to the techs doing the modifications not being actual mech engineers.

[Nightbird]

Karl Streiger, on 01 July 2019 - 08:48 PM, said:

however no Mech nor combat vehicle will have spare volume for engine and movement train. because they are already designed to have only this size of enigine. yes you should have extra space for mounting a smaller engine, although i don't think the reactor core gets smaller, you need more bulk for power generation and heat sinks and fuel when the core produces more power

Horseman is saying higher rating engines are bigger (by volume), smaller engines are smaller, and the mech is reshaped to fit it. The 6 crits in the CT are attachment points only.

[Karl Streiger]

Nightbird, on 02 July 2019 - 05:17 AM, said:

Horseman is saying higher rating engines are bigger (by volume), smaller engines are smaller, and the mech is reshaped to fit it. The 6 crits in the CT are attachment points only.

as with other things. its a question of interpretation.

physically a Mongoose (25t 200rated engine 4 laser) movement-train, fusion core and cooling should need as much space, maybe even more compared to an Annihilator (200 engine 4 laser).
so the extra bulk of the anni is guns, ammo and structure... so you could screw volume already at least when you depicture the Mongoose as large as a Commando and the Anni as bug as it is in mwo

[Nightbird]

Karl Streiger, on 02 July 2019 - 08:54 AM, said:

as with other things. its a question of interpretation.

physically a Mongoose (25t 200rated engine 4 laser) movement-train, fusion core and cooling should need as much space, maybe even more compared to an Annihilator (200 engine 4 laser).
so the extra bulk of the anni is guns, ammo and structure... so you could screw volume already at least when you depicture the Mongoose as large as a Commando and the Anni as bug as it is in mwo

In MWO, if the locust is the density of steel, then the atlas would float on water, based on physics, mass, and relative volume

https://mwomercs.com...metric-scaling/

And please skip any BS about attachment points lmao

Edited by Nightbird, 02 July 2019 - 09:11 AM.

[Horseman]

Nightbird, on 02 July 2019 - 05:17 AM, said:

Horseman is saying higher rating engines are bigger (by volume), smaller engines are smaller, and the mech is reshaped to fit it. The 6 crits in the CT are attachment points only

No, I'm saying that according to the refit rules same amount of complexity is associated with changing the armor allocation, replacing the engine (with same engine type) and installing a bulkier weapon, and the requirements indicate it is a partial rebuild of the chassis.
Installing a different engine type (XL/LFE/STD, whichever wasn't there originally) requires factory-level equipment, ie substantially rebuilding the mech around the new engine.

[Nightbird]

Horseman, on 08 July 2019 - 12:43 AM, said:

No, I'm saying that according to the refit rules same amount of complexity is associated with changing the armor allocation, replacing the engine (with same engine type) and installing a bulkier weapon, and the requirements indicate it is a partial rebuild of the chassis.
Installing a different engine type (XL/LFE/STD, whichever wasn't there originally) requires factory-level equipment, ie substantially rebuilding the mech around the new engine.

And what can you do at a factory that you can't do at a well equipped garage (mech bay)? Nothing

Factories are efficient at producing the same thing, but when it comes to a custom job, it has no efficiencies.

[Horseman]

Nightbird, on 08 July 2019 - 07:43 AM, said:

And what can you do at a factory that you can't do at a well equipped garage (mech bay)? Nothing
Factories are efficient at producing the same thing, but when it comes to a custom job, it has no efficiencies.

Per Strategic Operations, Custom designs suffer from a +2 Target Number modifier and double the required installation time vs an officially produced refit kit (as well as a reduction in Quality Level, which can make further modifications or repairs harder).
Transport Bay (Complete shelter, ideal lighting, and access to extensive tools and unit-appropriate gantries) conditions are TN-neutral
Maintenance Facility (Any tool needed, ideal conditions, cannot build any part from scratch but enough resources available to cobble together “best fi ts” and “solid bypasses” that almost pass for the real thing) is TN -2
Factory Conditions (Any tool or fabrication equipment needed to build from scratch any part, ideal conditions - factory must be designed to build the unit type in question; i.e. if the factory doesn’t build an aerospace unit, then it would only be considered a maintenance facility for that unit type) are TN -4

There goes your "well equipped garage" theory.

[Nightbird]

Horseman, on 08 July 2019 - 09:13 AM, said:

Per Strategic Operations, Custom designs suffer from a +2 Target Number modifier and double the required installation time vs an officially produced refit kit (as well as a reduction in Quality Level, which can make further modifications or repairs harder).
Transport Bay (Complete shelter, ideal lighting, and access to extensive tools and unit-appropriate gantries) conditions are TN-neutral
Maintenance Facility (Any tool needed, ideal conditions, cannot build any part from scratch but enough resources available to cobble together “best fi ts” and “solid bypasses” that almost pass for the real thing) is TN -2
Factory Conditions (Any tool or fabrication equipment needed to build from scratch any part, ideal conditions - factory must be designed to build the unit type in question; i.e. if the factory doesn’t build an aerospace unit, then it would only be considered a maintenance facility for that unit type) are TN -4

There goes your "well equipped garage" theory.

Since you're convinced that putting in a different equipment requires remolding the chassis and armor around each component, it's no longer the same unit and therefore no benefits from using the factory. Unless you're backtracking on that

Or want to throw in a, "it's magic, don't question it" answer

[MechaBattler]

Seems like slots aren't a measure of empty space. So much as a measure of internals that can be removed without detriment to the mechs' performance, structure, or armor. Perhaps this is why a mech is flexible and not necassarily super stiff in it's movements. And also why it's not easy to mount new equipment. Since you'd have to solve the puzzle of how to fit the equipment without causing problems to the mech's performance. So in the case of Endo and Ferro, it requires more of that internal space to remain.

[Nightbird]

MechaBattler, on 08 July 2019 - 09:32 AM, said:

Seems like slots aren't a measure of empty space. So much as a measure of internals

So internals is not space? The same heavy gauss rifle + 1 ton of ammo doesn't take up all available space in a hunchback ST as in an atlas ST?

The right answer is, it's magic and witches.

[Karl Streiger]

Nightbird, on 08 July 2019 - 09:35 AM, said:

The right answer is, it's magic and witches.

exactly- the spells are writen with pen & paper.

[MechaBattler]

Be gone with your foul black magic!

I once read a description where the internals are a kind of struts inside the mech. Rather than say the armor being welded directly onto a frame. It's a crazy amount of struts or something like that. It's supposed to provide the mech with better flexibility.

Perhaps you're not removing anything. Perhaps what you're doing is shifting these supporting structures around the thing you're putting in. And there is simply a limit to how much you can put in before it becomes a problem. And the total slots is just that representation?

I think it makes a kind of sense.

[Nightbird]

MechaBattler, on 08 July 2019 - 09:52 AM, said:

Be gone with your foul black magic!

I once read a description where the internals are a kind of struts inside the mech. Rather than say the armor being welded directly onto a frame. It's a crazy amount of struts or something like that. It's supposed to provide the mech with better flexibility.

Perhaps you're not removing anything. Perhaps what you're doing is shifting these supporting structures around the thing you're putting in. And there is simply a limit to how much you can put in before it becomes a problem. And the total slots is just that representation?

I think it makes a kind of sense.

But slots is not a measurement of volume, but rather a unit of wizardry?

[Horseman]

Nightbird, on 08 July 2019 - 09:24 AM, said:

Since you're convinced that putting in a different equipment requires remolding the chassis and armor around each component, it's no longer the same unit and therefore no benefits from using the factory.

Wrong, the rules refer to "unit type" in the example as "aerospace unit", not eg "Shilone".
Following that as a guideline, it's fairly obvious that it itsn't about a facility capable of producing the given mech chassis and variant, but rather a facility with equipment needed to construct new battlemechs.
Yes, this implies that in theory a Locust factory could be used to service - and refit - an Atlas.

Nightbird, on 08 July 2019 - 09:24 AM, said:

Or want to throw in a, "it's magic, don't question it" answer

No, want to throw in a "it's the rules, they represent how it's supposed to work in BT universe and you are not in position to toss them out on your say-so just because you don't like them"

Edited by Horseman, 08 July 2019 - 12:17 PM.

[Nightbird]

Horseman, on 08 July 2019 - 12:15 PM, said:

Wrong, the rules refer to "unit type" in the example as "aerospace unit", not eg "Shilone".
Following that as a guideline, it's fairly obvious that it itsn't about a facility capable of producing the given mech chassis and variant, but rather a facility with equipment needed to construct new battlemechs.
Yes, this implies that in theory a Locust factory could be used to service - and refit - an Atlas.

No, want to throw in a "it's the rules, they represent how it's supposed to work in BT universe and you are not in position to toss them out on your say-so just because you don't like them"

I am in a position to be amused by rules they clearly made while high, and by the mind bending logic people create to make them "make sense".

[Horseman]

Nightbird, on 08 July 2019 - 12:45 PM, said:

and by the mind bending logic people create to make them "make sense".

And not by the mind-bending logic people create trying to apply their real-world "common sense" to a world where real-world physics do not apply to begin with?
Or people who think that refitting a multi-ton war machine is comparable to working on a car in their garage?
Because someone here did both... and it wasn't me.

Edited by Horseman, 08 July 2019 - 02:21 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

of course there is another way to see it.
consider slots not as physical limitation but the possibility of stuff getting blown.
so the same HGR in the torso of a Hunch or Atlas have the same chance of getting damaged because you shoot at the barrel and its big so simple to hit, or a a deflected round that bounces of internal structure can clip a capacitor eg.

so the exact volume of a Mech is calculated by need not by mass.
(the Crab need to be more compact compared to the Bushwacker simple because the later has lot of ammunition in his innards)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 09 July 2019 - 01:58 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

MechaBattler, on 11 June 2019 - 01:48 PM, said:

I mean I get the rating means more power. But is there an in universe technological explanation? Or is it just hand waved away as space magic boogaloo?

I don't remember the exact universe terms but ... engine rating represents the amount of "connections" between the reactor itself and mech systems. The more connections the engine has, the bigger engine rating is, the more power the mech can draw from it, which affects speed etc. Reactor itself and the power it produces however is exact same between all rated engines of the same type (i.e. STD, LFE, XL), that is why engine size is same for different rated engines of the same type.

That also explains the whole internal/external heat sinks thing. Internal engine heat sinks can only be placed on said "connections", thus low rated engines don't have any space for internal heat sinks since they don't have enough free "connections", and in fact don't have enough of the "connections" to even support minimal ten required heat sinks and require additional ones to be placed in a mech itself. Bigger rated engines however have plenty free "connections", thus allowing for heat sinks to be installed on them inside the engine.

[Nightbird]

Horseman, on 08 July 2019 - 02:20 PM, said:

And not by the mind-bending logic people create trying to apply their real-world "common sense" to a world where real-world physics do not apply to begin with?
Or people who think that refitting a multi-ton war machine is comparable to working on a car in their garage?
Because someone here did both... and it wasn't me.

Yes yes, sorry for applying real life rules of gravity, volume, density, maintenance, assembly lines to your magic and witchcraft fantasy franchise.

Garages can be quite big, anything short of a factory is called a garage, and they do rebuild cars, trucks, semis even, at garages.

[Nightbird]

Will add that factories can build new vehicles more efficiently, but they cannot repair or maintain them as effectively as garages since the assembly lines at factories are geared towards production, not repair.

Also, neither garages nor factories can remold the chassis. That actually starts at R&D facilities. Factories only use the molds created for parts to rapidly create copies. Any thought that mech components can get larger or smaller to accommodate different internals must perish, when you remold a part, it's a different mech altogether.