229 replies to this topic

[Kurlon]

Disagreeing with you is not toxic. Deciding you're not a historical figure, or directly comparable to one is not toxic behavior. Bad sense of humor, subjective, but also not toxic.

[justcallme A S H]

Lol... "Toxic".

2019 buzzword ..it's 2020, time to find another.

Whole finding it - find some video evidence of hacking please. It's so rife apparently, so it won't be hard.

[Biomechtric]

justcallme A S H, on 02 March 2020 - 01:43 PM, said:

Lol... "Toxic".

2019 buzzword ..it's 2020, time to find another.

Whole finding it - find some video evidence of hacking please. It's so rife apparently, so it won't be hard.

You asked & here it is! All the evidence you will ever need to prove hacking exists!


Sorry, couldn't help it.

[Horseman]

ChenGGez, on 02 March 2020 - 12:02 PM, said:

You have no say in this, you were in a position of power in HHoD and chose to jump ship instead of trying to correct or help with this issue.

One, I have as much of a say in this as anyone else. What HHOD allows their members to do reflects on HHOD as a whole.

Two, calling it a "position of power" tells me you don't understand that through most of my time as a SM in your unit, my "authority" was limited to a company whose roster consisted of myself, a nonexistent captain and two inactives.

Three, I had little interaction with that wonderful man and his behavior was not one of the issues that led me to leave. Without airing too much of HHOD's dirty laundry here, I chose to jump ship not because I haven't tried to correct issues but because I have - and was told in no uncertain terms that corrective action will not be permitted .

• I was effectively forbidden from doing my damn job - by resolving issues with recruit onboarding, chain of custody of unit members and consistency in your records. More than once.
  
• I was shown more than once that your code of conduct with its' notions of respect, honor and integrity is neither followed nor enforced - and that even your command staff disregards it whenever they please.
  
• More than one member of the unit - including one of your officers - told me in no uncertain terms that they'd like all Europeans to just leave.
  
• I found the sheer contempt your command staff had towards new members to be too sickening to continue bringing them recruits to treat like that.

Eventually it became clear that continued membership in HHOD was not worth the cost to my self-respect.

Quote

People need to stop looking at things as black and white, it is up to PGI to instill customer confidence in their product.

They would have to start by fixing the lack of trust in themselves as a developer. And it's too late for that.

Quote

What it will do is stop the majority of hackusations that happen because "there is no anti-cheat system in place therefore the game is easy to hack."

See, that's where we disagree. The hackusations that are still made now are made by people who wouldn't know or care .

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If PGI is trying to make MWO more successful or even mainstream

They stopped trying sometime last year.

Edited by Horseman, 02 March 2020 - 10:52 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

imagine if HHOD spent as much time focusing on the game as they do on weird roleplaying and ego stroking.

[Buster Machine 0]

I see now that there is a clear divide between the comp and casual community in this game where anything I say to defend my unit and or unit mates after an unprovoked attack will be met with hate regardless of what I say or any facts I use to back up my statements.

This is not how a healthy or welcoming gaming community should behave.

PGI may have killed the game, but we will be the ones to drive the final nail into the coffin.

[justcallme A S H]

Ah so we are back on the "toxic" train are we?


I mean to me - calling out false, wrong and blatantly dumb statements - ain't toxic. That's just calling it for what it is. Now people obviously don't like to be caught out making stuff up but this is the world we life in. It happens on a daily basis.

ChenGGez, on 02 March 2020 - 08:26 PM, said:

I say to defend my unit and or unit mates

It is only partly why you say. 50% even.

The other 50% is is about providing recorded evidence of all the "hacking" that goes on. To back up your claim there is a need for some type of Anit-Cheat.

Hodor unit proclaims they are prolific. So - if that is the case - where is the proof?

Until there is the words have 0% meaning along with the entire argument about it.

[thievingmagpi]

ChenGGez, on 02 March 2020 - 08:26 PM, said:

I see now that there is a clear divide between the comp and casual community in this game where anything I say to defend my unit and or unit mates after an unprovoked attack will be met with hate regardless of what I say or any facts I use to back up my statements.

This is not how a healthy or welcoming gaming community should behave.

PGI may have killed the game, but we will be the ones to drive the final nail into the coffin.

What's more "destructive" to the game? What's healthier and more welcoming?


1) take new players and teach them bad builds and tactics, leading to performance roughly similar to blindly bashing a keyboard with my open fist and hoping to hit something, resulting in to total stomps all while supposed leaders squabble over schoolyard drama

2) here's some helpful information for new players, any questions just ask

Edited by thievingmagpi, 02 March 2020 - 08:48 PM.

[Buster Machine 0]

justcallme A S H, on 02 March 2020 - 08:33 PM, said:

The other 50% is is about providing recorded evidence of all the hacking that goes on. To back up your claim there is a need for some type of Anit-Cheat.

Hodor unit proclaims they are prolific. So - if that is the case - where is the proof?

Until there is the words have 0% meaning along with the entire argument about it.

I have never once accused anyone of hacking in this game and I myself have been accused of cheating/hacking multiple times in game by pugs in QP and by HHoD unit members alike.

My reason for having an active anti-cheat system in this game is not for the cheaters, but for the people that think there are cheaters because there is no publicly announced anti-cheat system in this game.

Having such a system or publicly advertising the current retroactive anti-cheat system will increase player confidence in the product and improve playerbase retention.

I have said this multiple times in this thread people don't read.

Edited by ChenGGez, 02 March 2020 - 09:44 PM.

[denAirwalkerrr]

justcallme A S H, on 02 March 2020 - 01:43 PM, said:

Lol... "Toxic".

2019 buzzword ..it's 2020, time to find another.

Zoomers

[Horseman]

thievingmagpi, on 02 March 2020 - 06:32 PM, said:

imagine if HHOD spent as much time focusing on the game as they do on weird roleplaying and ego stroking.

Oh, right... point six. It's not just ego stroking, it's that their leadership buys into it to exclusion of objective facts.

I'm sorry, but there's no bloody chance to "recruit competitively-minded players" (a goal their leadership proudly proclaimed several times) when their first impression of a unit is given through probation criteria that aren't the ones they'll actually be evaluated by and onboarding instructions that are half a decade out of date (which their command staff has been made aware of several times by myself alone and chose to do nothing about since 2017).
A competitively-minded player would have to either be willing to give them a lot of benefit of doubt or be very desperate to not run away screaming after seeing that.

ChenGGez, on 02 March 2020 - 08:26 PM, said:

or any facts I use to back up my statements.

Such as putting the blame for the attitude of someone who was in HHOD long, long before I joined squarely on my shoulders and making up false claims that his attitude was my reason for quitting? Sorry, mate, but no.

thievingmagpi, on 02 March 2020 - 08:48 PM, said:

1) take new players and teach them bad builds and tactics, leading to performance roughly similar to blindly bashing a keyboard with my open fist and hoping to hit something, resulting in to total stomps all while supposed leaders squabble over schoolyard drama

... all the while reassuring them that "we are the best unit, just follow the instructions and you will win".

Edited by Horseman, 03 March 2020 - 02:55 AM.

[Temporary Axis]

ChenGGez, on 02 March 2020 - 12:02 PM, said:

You have no say in this, you were in a position of power in HHoD and chose to jump ship instead of trying to correct or help with this issue.

Obviously when did I claim otherwise? The lesson learned here is that people on the forums don't seem to care about Jarls that much and I should stop playing for the rest of the season once I hit the rank I wanted to posterize.

Just another example of the failures of PGI to add to the ever growing list of why this game failed.

Not part of the problems that adding an anti-cheat system to the game would solve.

People need to stop looking at things as black and white, it is up to PGI to instill customer confidence in their product. Adding an anti-cheat system won't stop all hackusations, people will hackusate no matter what as it's part of human nature to blame others first instead of themselves. What it will do is stop the majority of hackusations that happen because "there is no anti-cheat system in place therefore the game is easy to hack."

Sure it's a system that people might want, but it's a feature that all successful modern arena shooters must have as it is currently the industry standard. If PGI is trying to make MWO more successful or even mainstream wouldn't it make sense to have a feature that all other mainstream arena shooters have?



I admit that I was overzealous in defending my builds which has led to this reaction, but how does this behavior benefit the community?

I say this with all respect.

You keep making statements that are factually incorrect, engaging in semantic fallacies and epeen measuring.

People disagree with what you have to say.

Agree to disagree and stop proverbially asking to be punched in the face.

[Temporary Axis]

Also we need a best of five 1v1 between Chen and Denair, then Chen and Scout to back up Chen's largely implied claim of being the better pilot.

Happy to spectate and stream for all to see (in case of win trading /s)

Edited by Temporary Axis, 03 March 2020 - 04:33 AM.

[Kurlon]

ChenGGez, on 02 March 2020 - 09:09 PM, said:

My reason for having an active anti-cheat system in this game is not for the cheaters, but for the people that think there are cheaters because there is no publicly announced anti-cheat system in this game.

Having such a system or publicly advertising the current retroactive anti-cheat system will increase player confidence in the product and improve playerbase retention.

I have said this multiple times in this thread people don't read.

We've read it, and multiple times shown that hypothesis isn't borne out in the real world when you look at past and current games.

Interesting to hear you say your own unit mates accused you of cheating... Completely unrelated, anti-cheat software cannot defeat all forms of cheating, the one rampant example of it in game that has been documented many times on video is Win Trading in Solaris. The good news is PGI is VERY responsive to reports of that with evidence though.

[Buster Machine 0]

Horseman, on 02 March 2020 - 11:48 PM, said:

Oh, right... point six. It's not just ego stroking, it's that their leadership buys into it to exclusion of objective facts.

Horseman, I was in the unit under my old tag Dr Genocide which I changed some time after you left. So I was around while you still played, despite being in different time zones.
While I don't entirely disagree with what you are saying these are my perspectives as a low ranked enlisted member of HHoD on what happened.

Temporary Axis, on 03 March 2020 - 04:09 AM, said:

I say this with all respect.

You keep making statements that are factually incorrect, engaging in semantic fallacies and epeen measuring.

People disagree with what you have to say.

Agree to disagree and stop proverbially asking to be punched in the face.

Temporary Axis, on 03 March 2020 - 04:31 AM, said:

Also we need a best of five 1v1 between Chen and Denair, then Chen and Scout to back up Chen's largely implied claim of being the better pilot.

Happy to spectate and stream for all to see (in case of win trading /s)

I say this with respect as well.

I've never win traded in my life ever. Also I'm not the one who started with the semantics. People knew what I was saying with the context provided and instead chose to argue semantics. The epeen measuring was unnecessary and I apologize for starting as an attempt to defend my builds but I stand by my convictions because I objectively know that having an anti-cheat system would improve this game's legitimacy, popularity, player retention rate, and its community.

I can try 1v1s however I have literally no experience in it and will need to play Solaris 7(a gamemode I have no interest in playing) until I have a properly min-maxed build for whichever weight class you want me to fight in. Or I can try some drops outside of HHoD and see how my performance holds up in those matches.

Kurlon, on 03 March 2020 - 04:53 AM, said:

We've read it, and multiple times shown that hypothesis isn't borne out in the real world when you look at past and current games.

Really? Give me an example of a mainstream arena shooter game in the past or present that doesn't have an active anti-cheat system or a publicly announced anti-cheat. I bet you can't.

Quote

Interesting to hear you say your own unit mates accused you of cheating... Completely unrelated, anti-cheat software cannot defeat all forms of cheating, the one rampant example of it in game that has been documented many times on video is Win Trading in Solaris. The good news is PGI is VERY responsive to reports of that with evidence though.

How is it unrelated if the very reason I've stated that anti-cheat software will reduce rampant hackusations and I have provided a literal example of getting hackusated by unit mates? I also never said anti-cheat software can defeat or stop all forms of cheating I've stated to the contrary as a matter of fact. Read the thread, i have said it before. Good, keep up your reporting and make sure you video document it, this community will benefit from being smaller after we ban the casuals and new players that try to get event rewards in an otherwise unwinnable game mode.

[Ignatius Audene]

the best anti cheat is the server side hit detection. Its way better then pbuster and co. And if u trust in any anticheat to acutally stop cheating....

[Kurlon]

ChenGGez, on 03 March 2020 - 09:14 AM, said:

Really? Give me an example of a mainstream arena shooter game in the past or present that doesn't have an active anti-cheat system or a publicly announced anti-cheat. I bet you can't.

By that criteria, MWO is already covered, see previous postings by PGI themselves discussing and utilizing the inbuilt anti-cheat tools present.

That said, what I HAVE shown is every one of those mainstream arena shooters with the shiny anti-cheat badges still have rampant cheating accusations. Your full claim is that those hackusations go away in the presence of said anti-cheat systems, evidence proves otherwise. If the problem is actual cheating, show evidence of it. More specifically, as per PGI's wishes give THEM the evidence so they can review and act on it. As you and I both agree, no tool is perfect, so if you're aware of an exploit let the powers that be know about it. That is a problem that deserves dev time for a fix.

If the problem is false hackusations, welcome to human nature, that's a problem that software isn't going to fix. Your railing against PGI and anyone who dares question you for MWO not having a Chen approved anti-cheat logo on the splash screen is just fanning that fire. It's a solution in search of a problem, my opinion that I'd rather see dev time go elsewhere than into a time/money sink with no actual user experience improvement still stands.

TLDR - Step 1: Document any actual hacking/cheating. If there is none to document, there is no step 2.

[Buster Machine 0]

Kurlon, on 03 March 2020 - 09:43 AM, said:

By that criteria, MWO is already covered, see previous postings by PGI themselves discussing and utilizing the inbuilt anti-cheat tools present.

That said, what I HAVE shown is every one of those mainstream arena shooters with the shiny anti-cheat badges still have rampant cheating accusations. Your full claim is that those hackusations go away in the presence of said anti-cheat systems, evidence proves otherwise. If the problem is actual cheating, show evidence of it. More specifically, as per PGI's wishes give THEM the evidence so they can review and act on it. As you and I both agree, no tool is perfect, so if you're aware of an exploit let the powers that be know about it. That is a problem that deserves dev time for a fix.

If the problem is false hackusations, welcome to human nature, that's a problem that software isn't going to fix. Your railing against PGI and anyone who dares question you for MWO not having a Chen approved anti-cheat logo on the splash screen is just fanning that fire. It's a solution in search of a problem, my opinion that I'd rather see dev time go elsewhere than into a time/money sink with no actual user experience improvement still stands.

TLDR - Step 1: Document any actual hacking/cheating. If there is none to document, there is no step 2.

Still not reading, I never said go away, I said reduce.

ChenGGez, on 01 March 2020 - 04:58 PM, said:

I agree, people are quick to blame others instead of facing their own mistakes. It's human nature, just like counter clockwise Nascar rotations.

No, but it'd definitely shut up all the people that say there are cheaters because there is no anti-cheat system, even a publicly stated anti-cheat system logo on the startup splash would work. A win win for everyone and a significant reduction in hackusation posts on this forum.

And yes, thank you for agreeing with me on human nature and repeating what I said.

The documentation you are looking for is literally the hackusation posts on the forum, you're still misunderstanding my stance on this subject. Once again it has nothing to do with hackers in this game and everything to do with the people complaining about them and their lack of faith in this product which in turn causes them to /uninstall and shrinks the playerbase.

And why would it be approved by me? I don't work at PGI or am involved in this game's development in any way. I'm simply recommending a feature that will reduce the amount of hackusations in this game and a feature that 100% of all mainstream arena shooters have. Or does it not make sense for this game to have a feature that 100% of all mainstream shooters have? Wouldn't you follow an established formula for success if you're trying to make money off of a game?

[Kurlon]

ChenGGez, on 03 March 2020 - 10:52 AM, said:

Still not reading, I never said go away, I said reduce.

And the evidence says it won't eliminate even one complaint. No reduction, no change what so ever. You also are forgetting, the game HAS anti-cheat provisions in it, so why are we having this conversation again?

[Buster Machine 0]

Kurlon, on 03 March 2020 - 10:56 AM, said:

And the evidence says it won't eliminate even one complaint. No reduction, no change what so ever. You also are forgetting, the game HAS anti-cheat provisions in it, so why are we having this conversation again?

ChenGGez, on 01 March 2020 - 06:42 PM, said:

What???

An example of complaining about there being no anti-cheat system in a game where a publicly visible anti cheat logo is visible every time the game starts up?

It won't stop people from complaining about cheaters, but it definitely will stop people from complaining about there being cheaters because there is no anti-cheat system in the game and reduce the number of complaints about cheating overall.