172 replies to this topic

[Xiphias]

Dakkalistic, on 03 July 2019 - 05:11 PM, said:

You know, Nascar used to be a specific maneuver which needed to be executed properly. I guess that's Lostech now.

https://mwomercs.com...ics-101-comics/

Four years later and people are still complaining about the same things and refusing to learn how to get better. This whole thread might as well be written by the Red Assault in those comics, "Nascar noobs left me again..."

[Tarl Cabot]

Dakkalistic, on 03 July 2019 - 05:11 PM, said:

You know, Nascar used to be a specific maneuver which needed to be executed properly. I guess that's Lostech now.

https://mwomercs.com...ics-101-comics/

It did show both a successful and a failed nascar....

[FRAGTAST1C]

See, here's the thing. It's not NASCAR itself that's the problem. The fact that people don't shoot at enemies while getting into position is where all the stupidity lies.

Just as an e.g., on Grim Plexus, the team that spawns on the J line move up to G7. Instead of regrouping there, almost of them will go to the right between the two Bismuth columns and give up the bloody high ground. The enemies coming from the opposite side have good cover 'cause they have a trench and can't be hit when your team give up the high ground. This allows them to circle around to G7 and hit our allies in the back.

So, the proper reaction would be to continue to NASCAR but ON THE HIGH GROUND. Instead, the team will drop into the trench while the enemies, who are now on the high ground, can shoot us. Furthermore, sometimes, the NASCAR stops and everyone huddle together on the low ground and neither shoot back ('cause the pitch angle of most mechs are bad) nor find cover quickly. Those that try to fight their way out can't do anything but churn out some 250-400 damage before getting overwhelmed.

That happens almost on every Grim Plexus match and nothing is learnt from it. It is so rare to find a team that will regroup at G7 and push up into the high ground causing the enemy slow movers to get isolated in the trench and their lighter mechs get counter-NASCAR'ed by our skirmishers. It's as if the two Bismuth towers are sending out some weird signals that attract all the pilots into the narrow path and make them give up the high ground.

[General Solo]

JediPanther, on 30 June 2019 - 08:29 AM, said:

Give up with any hope of tactics,team work and any other words that have that effect in qp.

IMO that's only partly true.
Once you learn the common patterns of randoms in quick play you can make strats such as ones you will find in moi wonderfull guide about being kiss A$$ in random solo quick play:

OZHomerOZ, on 09 September 2018 - 05:31 AM, said:

.......................................
Tip Four :Gauge your teams Quality

In solo queue this is one of the most important skills as it detemines your strategy.

Moi stratergies , use or make up ur own all guid.
Bad team unwilling: meatshield strategy ( If it helps carry you get moar CBills )
Half team Lerm boats: poke and meat shield strategy. ( If it helps carry you get moar CBills )
Novice team but Willing: Herd Cats, guide, kill by example and support strategy
Decent guys: Make calls kill stuff strategy
Guid Pilots: Follow the pain train and weapons impacts (aka laser beams) strategy

Your teams merits or lack of should guide your actions/tactics/stratergies FTW.
........................................

After a while, you look at solo qp like a game of cards and basically play that hand to the maximum.
Which at worst would mean, hit override spam fire till you die while trying to surivive the longest you can.

In the worst case at the least you pumped out the most damage humanly possible in the shortest time, often enough to = PSR, not a win but better than nothing.

Thing to notice also is often in the same case, the enemy may falter, make a mistake due to your awesome most damage in the shortest time override pumping ability.
And that can turn a loss to a win.

Or you can turn tail run and die from a back shot.
Be the enemies thorn to the end, is my usual operating procedure.

These guys crying mummy game over after initial enemy contact, are the worst, they don't even check kill counter to see if their team is winning, yet cry out we gonna lose they chipped my paint. Now that stuff is poison to team morale and wins.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 04 July 2019 - 01:20 AM.

[Lykaon]

In most cases NASCAR is not a true tactic but a reaction to the other players.

Either reacting to the movements of your team mates or a reaction to the enemy (either running away in a route or savagely chasing what appears to be vulnerable targets without regard for how this may make your own team vulnerable)

As a reaction NASCAR lacks real thought.It's just doing a thing just because it's happening like falling down because there is something called gravity. The thing is Gravity MUST be obeyed NASCAR can be avoided when it's a bad plan.

The issue is the vast majority of players lack the ability to tell when NASCAR is a bad plan.


There is one simple truth about NASCAR in MWo. The victor is mostly decided before the match begins.The matchmaker selects the teams the players don't. Since the deciding factors in winning a NASCAR are mostly based upon what team has a higher concentration of mechs that can move quick enough and fire frequently enough to over take a rotating enemy and kill the trailing targets fast enough to not slow down and get caught themselves.

If one team gets a Madcat MKII-B dakka build and the other gets an Annihilator dual heavy gauss the Madcat MKII is the better mech for the situation.

If that same team also gets a UAC20 and SRM Vapor Eagle while the other team gets RAC Shadowhawk and the first team gets Marauder IIc laser vomit build while the second team gets an LRM Stalker team one gets a Piranha -1 while team 2 gets Cougar PPC sniper and so on...

The matchmaker builds one team that is adept at a running battle and opposes it with a team that would be better suited at a mid range poke who wins the NASCAR? And ultimately when was the victor decided and what factors win?

NASCAR removes player agency and replaces it with a matchmaker coin toss.

Edited by Lykaon, 04 July 2019 - 06:53 AM.

[John McClintock]

The NASCAR isn't the problem, it's a legit tactic, going back to cave man days.

The problem is lack of communication and co-ordination leading up to the push.

You can't start the push when the slower third of your team is still only halfway there.

[General Solo]

If we lose a third and they lose the match then it was a good decision
Not saying the third are going to like it.
But we won, extra 50,000 CB for them winning too.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 04 July 2019 - 11:47 AM.

[Lykaon]

John McClintock, on 04 July 2019 - 10:35 AM, said:

The NASCAR isn't the problem, it's a legit tactic, going back to cave man days.

The problem is lack of communication and co-ordination leading up to the push.

You can't start the push when the slower third of your team is still only halfway there.

Except as it is done in MWo NASCAR is NOT a tactic it's a reflexive reaction most of the time. As you pointed out players do not make a tactical choice as to if or when to push they just do it no mater the likely outcome.

A tactic is defined as:

An action or strategy carefully planned to to achieve a specific end.

OR...

The art of disposing armed forces in order of battle and of organizing operations,especially during contact with the enemy.

NASCAR as it is executed in in the solo quick play queue lacks the critical "carefully planned" and "organized" that would make it a true tactic.

NASCAR in MWo is a reactionary and reflexive action that does not take into account team composition or positioning.

Are the team's assault mechs a full grid away? to bad ...rotate!

Is a given team's mech builds better suited to a radically different style of battle than run 'n' gun? well to bad ...rotate!

Your team spread out in a thin staggered line with no concentration of firepower? well just keep rotating!

Does the enemy present a weakened flank to exploit? just ignore it and predictably rotate!

Calling NASCAR as it is executed in quick play a tactic is a clear indication of the lack of capability the average player has when it comes to executing an actual tactic.

Edited by Lykaon, 05 July 2019 - 12:22 AM.

[General Solo]

Very high and mighty of you there, just one flaw I want to point out.

Lykaon, on 05 July 2019 - 12:21 AM, said:

bla bla bla

........lacks the critical "carefully planned" and "organized" that would make it a true tactic.

bla

Its QUICK PLAY who got time for dat with a bunch of RANDOMS with RANDOM Mechs and RANDOM skills.
You play quick play right?
Jarls tells me your not the most qualified to say what tactics are best.

I have more games under my belt so Im naturally right of course?
If fact nascar works best against those not qualified.

Which is why your trying to belittle moi beatayfull nascar
Viva La Nascarinho

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 05 July 2019 - 07:55 PM.

[MTier Slayed Up]

Douglas grizzly, on 30 June 2019 - 06:56 AM, said:

oh yeah but i have noticed i have learned and even the top players refuse almost to a man to face me alone in a straight up 1v1 fight.

You can go to Solaris for that. We'd be more than happy to accommodate.

[Xiphias]

DrtyDshSoap, on 05 July 2019 - 08:00 PM, said:

You can go to Solaris for that. We'd be more than happy to accommodate.

Yeah, we're never going to see him in Solaris because then he wouldn't have a team to blame for his losses.

[Prototelis]

I've never seen dude blame his team for a loss; only accuse someone on the enemy team of cheating.

[John McClintock]

lol

[Lykaon]

OZHomerOZ, on 05 July 2019 - 07:49 PM, said:

Very high and mighty of you there, just one flaw I want to point out.



Its QUICK PLAY who got time for dat with a bunch of RANDOMS with RANDOM Mechs and RANDOM skills.
You play quick play right?
Jarls tells me your not the most qualified to say what tactics are best.

I have more games under my belt so Im naturally right of course?
If fact nascar works best against those not qualified.

Which is why your trying to belittle moi beatayfull nascar
Viva La Nascarinho

Jarls bla bla bla ....I play infrequently these days pretty much exclusively in pairs quick play group queue. So not the best way to pad stats.

I could write you reams of pages on actual tactics execution of manuvers use of defilade proper techniques for wheeling a turn to present optimized fire lanes how to maximize concentration of fire and all that but at the end of the day we are taking about MWO quick play and I am attempting to argue with someone who thinks go fast turn left shoot repeat is the height of expertese.

If I cared to I could play the game in the solo group queue and build a mech and technique that optimized my ability to farm stats while running in a circle around Theta on Canyon or HPG or Caustic (or any of the NASCAR track maps) But I prefer to not to do the same idiotic repetitive thing better than other people who do the same repetitive stupid thing.


The whole point is...

A player in quick play solo queue does not choose their team composition the match maker does.

A player who chooses the NASCAR "tactic" without any consideration of the team composition is essentially and figuratively flipping a coin.

Did the match maker provide your team with mechs that can commit to pursuit combat? Or are you committing to a "tactic" that places your team composition at a disadvantage? if you do commit to an action that suits your team composition poorly then are you playing well? Personal stats may look good but are you actually "good" at strategy or just good at exploiting idiocy?

Being less stupid and succeeding is not the same as being a solid tactical thinker.

I would prefer not to play to be king of the idiots and have excellent Jarl's stats. I would prefer to try to out think other humans. But at the end of the day you are right this is MWo and a lone player or a pair of players can't do much against the tide of NASCAR twerps who would resign their sense of self agency for a matchmaker decided outcome.

[Prototelis]

^ You can't call my bluff because I said so! Also I'm actually really good and just choose to play poorly because I'm iconoclast!

[Feral Clown]

Lykaon, on 05 July 2019 - 10:02 PM, said:

Jarls bla bla bla ....I play infrequently these days pretty much exclusively in pairs quick play group queue. So not the best way to pad stats.

Have you considered that there are players who are just decent at the game and aren't padding stats? I mean I think I get it a bit where you are coming from, seeing dudes running nothing but VGL 3's or MKII B's and having decent stats is not all that impressive. There are however other fun ways which at least for me do well stats wise, such as fast mechs with med pulse, or srms.

Think you also have to factor in that skill level in the game seems to be at a low point and it isn't hard to get into the 90 percentile when there is a great deal of the community running bad builds and not truly understanding what is going on around them.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

Nascar is far better than the split n die tactics, end of. Nascaring doesn't even require much brain power either, if you co-ordinate people to do it quickly, and especially call targets, it's lethal.

[Lykaon]

Feral Clown, on 06 July 2019 - 12:42 AM, said:

Have you considered that there are players who are just decent at the game and aren't padding stats? I mean I think I get it a bit where you are coming from, seeing dudes running nothing but VGL 3's or MKII B's and having decent stats is not all that impressive. There are however other fun ways which at least for me do well stats wise, such as fast mechs with med pulse, or srms.

Think you also have to factor in that skill level in the game seems to be at a low point and it isn't hard to get into the 90 percentile when there is a great deal of the community running bad builds and not truly understanding what is going on around them.

My consideration is that what qualifies as skill these days is in essence stat padding. By intent or by action being "good" at MWo no longer involves have a head for tactics or strategy.

If someone tears of at best speed to begin a rotation without thought of their team's composition they are effectively playing solo. There is no intent to incorperate any team strengths or compensate for any team weaknesses the only intent is to do well for themselves...AKA stat padding.

Being "good" and having the highly valued Jarl's stats does not mean an individual has any talent tactically,all it takes is having sufficent mechlab skills to not build trash and the ability to effectively pilot the non-trash build while running in a circle predictably chasing some other player who is also running in a circle.

Being successful at doing the same predictable thing against other players doing the identical thing isn't actually being "good" with strategy because NASCAR removes this aspect. Players continue to NASCAR even when it would lead to a loss. The players do not adapt to a change in situation they simply continue to rotate. This is not utilizing tactics.

When a team wins NASCAR by and large the factors contributing to the win are not decided by the players on a whole these contributing factors were decided by the match maker.

And sometimes one of the contributing factors is what team has the players who are best at running in a circle and shooting bad guys while not getting shot in the back.

What these "good" players are not grasping is they have reduced their "skills" to being a randomly assigned victory factor plugged in by a matchmaker.

Edited by Lykaon, 06 July 2019 - 05:31 AM.

[Dauntless Blint]

Short answer, stop piloting assaults because it's the nature of pug ques?

When they nerfed the skill tree they nerfed heat capacity, and therefore sustained dakka assaults who used to also be more mobile (general global mobility nerf) and able to break or stall a rotation with good positioning + arty and just one good guy clearing their back.
General armor buff hurt assaults too as they live or die on time to kill where other class's can live or die more on position and speed.(Glass canons)V's(skirmish,poke,shoot-scoot,poptart,snipe)

(Assaults are only a tank in one-on-one situations. Otherwise they are a glass cannon, with the easiest hit boxes in the game.)
(Domination game mode trains muscle memory for rotation.)+(likewise using the same maps for 6 years)
(It takes balls to take a line that is risky if your team doesn't want to support you(or simply doesn't think to), you have more than likely done the right thing to some extent but your simply at the mercy of the team when using slow assaults.)

I understand the frustration of nascar as it is the most representative and brain-dead=boring, although effective tactic in PUG's as it breaks assaults or simply the slowest team.

It takes a team. PUG's is usually a group of individuals and misrepresentation of how good the assault class can be when you've got even one good light killer defending your back or brave guy supporting the scary flank.

A Fallback tactic could be wait in hiding for a single rotation if your spawn is out wide on the left in a fatty or slow build it can be devastating with preserved firepower and armor used in a "pincer". It's selfish but better than abandonment.

Just preserve your armor? if the nascar is so hard that several match's in a row the assaults get swept away within the first 2-3 minutes just staying alive as long as you can, rolling off damage as best you can,switch to "OverRideShutdown" and try and hurt something the best you can aiming for a single kill trade.

Lastly if you're not sure about a rout you've taken when receiving criticism, if your full "W" key with your assault buddies and 8 other hero's are cursing you, it's their own (selfish) fault for a couple of reasons. 1.) they have abandoned you. 2.)they tried to flank before a firing line has been established (rotation). 3.) they expect you to be their meat-shield speed bump and it's not going as planned.

My best quick-play game (2&1/2 years ago) was 11 kills,(8 MDD) 2400+damage in old LPL+4xUAC5's KGC with an XL360 and about half armor capacity. << armor means little compared to hitbox's (at the time) armor is higher now so assaults got class nerfed in TTK.
(A raven with 3 medium lasers took the killing blow on the last man, I was so happy with the game I had, I couldn't be mad at the guy.) -I'm currently mediocre at best.

That's my take on it. There are more selfish players, then I used to remember IMO or maybe less patience or tolerance and more road rage.

It's all herding cat's at the end of the day.

I think the biggest fix would be procedurally generated maps so that no-one could switch their brain off and let muscle memory take over it would enhance the need for "Roll" based mechs to do their jobs more instead of already knowing where the enemy is and how the game is going to play the second you see the map name locked in.

I think I miss speedy lag shield lights too, even as an assault main. I saw a guy "ArcherRuss" get 2400 in a Locust once, I think skill and or wise placement has taken a backseat to mediocrity across the class's.

Edited by Dauntless Blint, 06 July 2019 - 05:43 AM.

[Insignus]

In terms of fixes - I think MWO suffers from a deficiency in options to break up formations.

A short term hash fix would be allowing up to two active artillery strikes for a team, and reducing the call in time on arty somehwat so that it's more viable against moving formations.

Longer term, the canon had some interesting depictions of people deploying mines, which, were enterprising light or stealth mechs to dodge head of a NASCAR and deploy them, could punish people for mindlessly moving in formations. A number of maps have viable choke and focus points that a minefield could seriously mess up a formation.

Maybe, say, .5 tons for a two use mine pack that deploys a four pack of 3 damage mines, or 1 ton for a two use pack that deploys 8 4 damage mines (Bear in mind these are one shot weapons that the enemy can in theory avoid completely - so its hit or miss - Rocket Launchers are a similar one shot weapon).

Those would be nice base starting values, in my view

I'm sure mines have been proposed and dismissed before, but it might be worth revisiting, as I'm at loss on how to alter the playerbase.


I truly dislike NASCARing, as it fundamentally disrupts my play style - which is stealth play.

I can handle enemies on the move. But when your own team is constantly turning the enemy line, this shrinks the number of windows I have for backshots and general interference play, because you own team is migrating their space into your own, and drawing the enemies focus there, and obviously, forcing the enemy to rotate.

It also promotes herd play, which minimizes stragglers and prompts heightened awareness on side angles.

Which, I get why people find that attractive. Because it's a leveling mechanism. NASCAR is vital to allow lower skill component players, those with sub-optimal, inattentive builds and perhaps reduced or uncultivated situational awareness to average out their skill gaps with the team.

But it isn't fun to play against. As I've entered Tier 2, I find myself starting to miss the rush and dynamism that, ironically, I felt in lower tiers. I'm not noticing a skill change as much, hoping thats in tier 1, but I keep encountering matches where I spend huge portions of my playtime having to re-adjust to my team's position, which hurts my ability to impact things in their favor, and they often die as a result.

I also miss the thrill of having the occasional full light lance operate independently of the enemy, the rush and stress of evading them, the occasional jubiliation at wrecking them in my 40ton cicada.

In summary, I agree that it doesn't seem to add much to gameplay, seems like a lazy strat to average out unskilled players in tiers that are supposed to be of greater skill (But hey, inertia, right?). Its just disappointing, because I see the NASCAR start, and my mind instantly trips on "Am I just wasting my time fighting for these guys?"

So really, what I'm saying is, when you NASCAR, I lose respect for my team-mates. I just take whatever your match score is and instead of saying "Yeah, hey, they did good with that mech, that's impressive!" I just draw an imaginary sharpie line through your name.

Edited by Insignus, 06 July 2019 - 08:16 AM.