1380 replies to this topic

[Ruediger Steiner]

Dee Eight, on 06 August 2019 - 10:57 AM, said:

Big deal...so does facebook

And again, it´s okay cause everybody does it?
Or do you just want to point out that you can´t do anything against it, cause every company does it and nobody complains, why they continue to do it, so people like you can state that ever company does it?

[Moochachoo]

ingramli, on 06 August 2019 - 09:52 PM, said:

Can Someone from PGI officially confirm the above arrangement (steam key available after 1 yr)? If so, I am more than happy to reinstate my cancelled pre-order.

This is their follow up email.

“GM Patience (Piranha Games)
Aug 6, 12:21 PDT

We are currently discussing the possibility of offering a Steam key after a year of the game being exclusive to Epic store. We expect to make an official announcement next week.
Please get back to us if you still wish to receive the refund after the announcement.

GM Patience
Senior Customer Support Rep
Piranha Games”

So I’m guessing if we receive an announcement in a week time, then it’s ok, if we don’t hear from them, then it’s likely they are not going to compromise.

Edited by Moochachoo, 07 August 2019 - 12:22 AM.

[ingramli]

Moochachoo, on 07 August 2019 - 12:19 AM, said:

This is their follow up email.

“GM Patience (Piranha Games)
Aug 6, 12:21 PDT

We are currently discussing the possibility of offering a Steam key after a year of the game being exclusive to Epic store. We expect to make an official announcement next week.
Please get back to us if you still wish to receive the refund after the announcement.

GM Patience
Senior Customer Support Rep
Piranha Games”

So I’m guessing if we receive an announcement in a week time, then it’s ok, if we don’t hear from them, then it’s likely they are not going to compromise.

So nothing happened until and unless it is officially announced, let's hope PGI will make a smart move on this one.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Orisos, on 06 August 2019 - 08:50 PM, said:

Are you serious right now? Offering refunds isn't "decency." It's literally the bare minimum they have to do in order to avoid a class action lawsuit that sues the piss out of them. They lied about a product they were selling and covering their *** by offering us our money back.

As I said they could have made people do that, and as in life nothing is a guaranteed win and also as I said companies like people do change their minds if a better deal comes along. People do it all the time, for example you accept a job at one place and tell them yes you can start in one week. Five days later another company you applied at says they want to hire you but they will give you 10 dollars an hour more. So does that make you a liar? Or are you just doing what most smart people would do and take the better offer even though you promised company A that you would work for them. But no matter people are free to be upset that is the beauty of being able to have differing opinions. Pretty sure neither of us will change each other’s.

[Stridercal]

Wishmast3r, on 06 August 2019 - 11:33 PM, said:

And again, it´s okay cause everybody does it?
Or do you just want to point out that you can´t do anything against it, cause every company does it and nobody complains, why they continue to do it, so people like you can state that ever company does it?

It's just 'whataboutism' at it's finest - ignore, if you are able.

[Horseman]

Eurystheus, on 06 August 2019 - 05:30 PM, said:

Okay. So help me out here. When I want to play Call of Duty or MW5 I double click on an icon on my desktop and under the covers Steam launches the game. What will be different with Epic?

You will be supporting bad customer service and anti-competitive practices. If you cannot understand why that's a bad thing, then I guess you're welcome to the inevitable consequences.

Moochachoo, on 07 August 2019 - 12:19 AM, said:

So I’m guessing if we receive an announcement in a week time, then it’s ok, if we don’t hear from them, then it’s likely they are not going to compromise.

It's not a done deal just yet, and even then it will be conditional on PGI getting a license extension, surviving until December 2020 and actually honoring the purchase then.

Dee Eight, on 06 August 2019 - 10:57 AM, said:

Big deal...so does facebook

And that makes it okay how? Even if you're content to be treated like a sheep, some of us have more self-respect than that.

Edited by Horseman, 07 August 2019 - 06:23 AM.

[Prototelis]

Run the same "test" on steam.

[Janthkin]

Red Potato Standing By, on 07 August 2019 - 04:44 AM, said:

As I said they could have made people do that, and as in life nothing is a guaranteed win and also as I said companies like people do change their minds if a better deal comes along. People do it all the time, for example you accept a job at one place and tell them yes you can start in one week. Five days later another company you applied at says they want to hire you but they will give you 10 dollars an hour more. So does that make you a liar? Or are you just doing what most smart people would do and take the better offer even though you promised company A that you would work for them. But no matter people are free to be upset that is the beauty of being able to have differing opinions. Pretty sure neither of us will change each other’s.

You seem a little confused about consumer protection laws. The issue here is principally that PGI knew before the preorder window closed that what they were offering for sale was NOT what they were going to deliver.

Your analogy doesn't work, because employment in the US (with a few exceptions) is "at will" - both you and your employer are free to terminate it at (almost) any time, for (almost) any reason, including before it starts. By contrast, when a company offers to sell you something, and you agree to purchase it at the offered terms, then the company unilaterally sends you something else - that's likely a breach of contract, and almost certainly a violation of the State Deceptive Trade Practice Laws in most (US) states. See, e.g., https://statelaws.fi...-practices.html ("False representation of the ...characteristics...of a good or service"; "Advertising goods or services with the intent of not selling them as advertised").

Giving refunds is likely to deflect most litigation, as any "damages" here beyond the amount put down would be hard to prove. But I'd be really cautious about limiting refunds to a specific cut-off date, because anyone who is denied a refund has great standing to file complaints in their state. (That said, California also has civil penalties available, up to $6000 for intentional false advertising (https://law.justia.c.../section-17206/) - this is the sort of thing that class action attorneys love to bundle up, as a class of 20,000 preorders at up to $6000/each starts looking like an attractive proposition.)

In California at least, false advertising is also a misdemeanor (https://law.justia.c.../section-17500/).

Edited by Janthkin, 07 August 2019 - 07:42 AM.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Yep because their lawyers don’t know the law obviously ( I am sure they have lawyers and have checked with them)

[Dee Eight]

Horseman, on 07 August 2019 - 06:20 AM, said:

And that makes it okay how? Even if you're content to be treated like a sheep, some of us have more self-respect than that.

So you're telling us with a straight face that you do not ever use facebook, youtube, google, amazon, ebay, or if you have a mobile device, ever download apps from the IOS or Android stores ?

[Horseman]

Janthkin, on 07 August 2019 - 07:33 AM, said:

You seem a little confused about consumer protection laws. The issue here is principally that PGI knew before the preorder window closed that what they were offering for sale was NOT what they were going to deliver.

PGI is in Canada. See http://web.archive.o...ng-parties.html

Quote

a general doctrine of good faith between parties and a specific duty of honesty — opening up the civil courts to a potential wave of lawsuits based on perceived deceptions.
(...)
The decision states: “… there is a common law duty which applies to all contracts to act honestly in the performance of contractual obligations. …
(...)
“In this case, one of those duties is a duty of honest performance in contracting, which means basically that parties can’t lie or knowingly mislead each other with respect to the performance of their contractual obligations.”

Also https://www.american.../04/02_kierans/

[Orisos]

Red Potato Standing By, on 07 August 2019 - 04:44 AM, said:

As I said they could have made people do that, and as in life nothing is a guaranteed win and also as I said companies like people do change their minds if a better deal comes along. People do it all the time, for example you accept a job at one place and tell them yes you can start in one week. Five days later another company you applied at says they want to hire you but they will give you 10 dollars an hour more. So does that make you a liar? Or are you just doing what most smart people would do and take the better offer even though you promised company A that you would work for them. But no matter people are free to be upset that is the beauty of being able to have differing opinions. Pretty sure neither of us will change each other’s.

If you think PGI has the money or the legal acumen to fight an uphill lawsuit against a bunch of people who bought a product under false pretenses you're crazy. I suggest you look into the definition of the word "fraud" because selling people something based on deception is illegal. By the way: If you sign a contract for an employer and bail in a week your *** is going to court too. I don't know what jobs you've been applying for but I don't think you understand how contracting works. If you bail on your job before your contract period is up then you my friend are very boned in court. But hey, if you want to convince yourself PGI is doing you a favor by offering refunds go for it.

[Grayson Sortek]

Dee Eight, on 07 August 2019 - 08:18 AM, said:

So you're telling us with a straight face that you do not ever use facebook, youtube, google, amazon, ebay, or if you have a mobile device, ever download apps from the IOS or Android stores ?

As someone who is a marketing professional, I can tell you that the methods are vastly different between what EGS did and the companies you listed. I can also tell you that with GDPR coming down the line and the issues surrounding personal data and how it is handled after the catastrophe in 2016; FB Business and other platforms have seriously changed the way they allow anyone (including paying advertisers) to use that data. The EGS went above and beyond what those sites do so please don't create a false equivalency.

I've watched you white-knight PGI on these forums so I don't really expect you to comprehend this or fully be able to come to terms with it, but I thought I would put that out there for anyone else that has some capacity to listen to others.

[Zevron]

Horseman, on 07 August 2019 - 08:52 AM, said:

PGI is in Canada.

If they do business in the US, such as selling to US residents, they can be sued in US courts. Being Canadian doesn't immunize them from that.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Orisos, on 07 August 2019 - 09:16 AM, said:

If you think PGI has the money or the legal acumen to fight an uphill lawsuit against a bunch of people who bought a product under false pretenses you're crazy. I suggest you look into the definition of the word "fraud" because selling people something based on deception is illegal. By the way: If you sign a contract for an employer and bail in a week your *** is going to court too. I don't know what jobs you've been applying for but I don't think you understand how contracting works. If you bail on your job before your contract period is up then you my friend are very boned in court. But hey, if you want to convince yourself PGI is doing you a favor by offering refunds go for it.

What did you sign when you pre ordered? Maybe with contract work but majority of people are not on contracts. And I am not convincing myself of anything. It is in the wide open,if it is open and shut case fraud just take it to the police ( fraud is criminal after all so hell the state or province will cover the cost and you won’t be out a dime. I am guessing I know what would happen.

[C E Dwyer]

Still think switching was a good idea Russ ?

Let us know how it works out..

[Janthkin]

Red Potato Standing By, on 07 August 2019 - 12:49 PM, said:

It is in the wide open,if it is open and shut case fraud just take it to the police ( fraud is criminal after all so hell the state or province will cover the cost and you won’t be out a dime. I am guessing I know what would happen.

For myself, it's not worth my time.

If your standards for "this is a company I actively support and advocate for" are just that no jurisdiction is actively pursuing criminal fraud charges against them, that is indeed your choice. Me, I aim a little higher where possible.

[Orisos]

Red Potato Standing By, on 07 August 2019 - 12:49 PM, said:

What did you sign when you pre ordered? Maybe with contract work but majority of people are not on contracts. And I am not convincing myself of anything. It is in the wide open,if it is open and shut case fraud just take it to the police ( fraud is criminal after all so hell the state or province will cover the cost and you won’t be out a dime. I am guessing I know what would happen.

The minute you order ANTHING with a credit or debit card that's a legal agreement, end of story. If the person you paid money to does not provide the service that was agreed upon then that agreement has been breached. Not only that but we're also subject to a Terms of Service Agreement. Face it, PGI is pissing in our face and you're defending them for it. The only thing that's stopping them from being sued is the refund offer. They are not doing us a favor.

Edited by Orisos, 07 August 2019 - 03:51 PM.

[Merle]

Good grief, they really PGI'd this one up! At least the refund process was simple and easy!

[Red Potato Standing By]

Orisos, on 07 August 2019 - 03:51 PM, said:

The minute you order ANTHING with a credit or debit card that's a legal agreement, end of story. If the person you paid money to does not provide the service that was agreed upon then that agreement has been breached. Not only that but we're also subject to a Terms of Service Agreement. Face it, PGI is pissing in our face and you're defending them for it. The only thing that's stopping them from being sued is the refund offer. They are not doing us a favor.

I dunno i paid for the game and I am getting the game. Hell it might even be better because they are making more money from epic and taking longer to refine it. Also a lot of contracts do have clauses that say terms subject to change without notice and is a legal agreement. And really not trying to defend them but if I stopped using every business that did things that were shady well I would be a rich man cause I would have no where to spend it. But then I would have no money because I would be working for a business that probably at some point did something shady.

To the other point yes I couldn’t care less I just want to play the game, as long as they deliver that I don’t care how many times they change there venues to increase their profits.