1380 replies to this topic

[Zaptiah]

Orisos, on 07 August 2019 - 03:51 PM, said:

The minute you order ANTHING with a credit or debit card that's a legal agreement, end of story. If the person you paid money to does not provide the service that was agreed upon then that agreement has been breached. Not only that but we're also subject to a Terms of Service Agreement. Face it, PGI is pissing in our face and you're defending them for it. The only thing that's stopping them from being sued is the refund offer. They are not doing us a favor.

Actually I would think that PGI is hoping everyone takes the refund offer and goes away. If you do you loose "standing" in US law and it becomes more difficult to show damages. It then becomes a DOJ or FTC issue to decide to pursue PGI for this gross abuse of the consumer protection laws.

If one customer has the money to engage legal representation against PGI for this gross abuse I would also think it would snowball quickly as long as there are customers that have both "standing" and can show damage from this blatant bait and switch sales practice. Throw on top of that the fact that this violates more than one countries laws and it becomes very interesting.

Also, if enough customers that haven't taken a refund can show damage and file official complaints with the FTC it would reach a threshold that forced and investigation that the DOJ/FTC would be required by US law to review. That can be done here ...

https://www.ftc.gov/...r-complaint-ftc

The short refund window is a pressure tactic to force those customers that are prone to emotional responses to request a refund early. This then makes it much more difficult for those customers to show "standing" to claim damages - not impossible, but difficult. The simple fact is that PGI knowingly and intentionally sold a product they did not intend to deliver. It doesn't matter that it is being delivered in a different form/platform. I strongly encourage everyone harmed by this gross abuse of our consumer rights to file formal legal complaints in your home country. Why are we complaining and doing nothing? If enough people file (FTC in the US) then it must be reviewed once it reaches a few hundred complaints - especially in a short time.

[Akillius]

Zevron, on 07 August 2019 - 12:39 PM, said:

If they do business in the US, such as selling to US residents, they can be sued in US courts. Being Canadian doesn't immunize them from that.

No because....

Rhialto, on 06 August 2019 - 07:13 PM, said:

I don't care much as I haven't pre-ordered but legally, this in Canada could lead to a class action if people bought a product officially announced on a platform and have paid for this specific annoucement.

Janthkin, on 07 August 2019 - 07:33 AM, said:

The issue here is principally that PGI knew before the preorder window closed that what they were offering for sale was NOT what they were going to deliver.

Orisos, on 07 August 2019 - 09:16 AM, said:

If you think PGI has the money or the legal acumen to fight an uphill lawsuit against a bunch of people

PGI is in Canada, sure you can file suit in any, and every, country around the world (ie. Russia, America, UK, India, etc.)
However you will need to hire international lawyers, not your cheap local, nor your state/provincial, and no your federal level lawyers are also out of the question but they will all take your money for as long as you pay them....
An international lawyer will tell you that some laws apply and some laws will not.

If in USA, the laws of bait and switch don't apply since both laws are too similar and it will get passed to Canadian courts, if the judge doesn't have a laughing fit and through it out immediately, get a judge judy and your paying all legal fees.
For many other countries PGI can simply acknowledge the lawsuit with how the the foreign court lacks subject jurisdiction and lacks impartiality and requests "enforcement of guaranteed rights and freedoms" of a Canadian corporate entity to have their day in court by peers (within Canada, under Canadian laws) under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If nothing else this will drag out the court case for years before it even reaches a decision to even allow it in another country and runs out of appeals for either side.
(fyi corporate entities are people under Canadian and USA laws and some other countries too.)

BUT...
No one sane person would file class action (criminal) lawsuit in Canada because a refund was offered.
- And you must prove damages (means how much your financially out of pocket).
- But a full refund is offered, so expect 100% the lawsuit to get tossed.
- Then expect to be ordered to pay all of PGI's legal fees for filing such a frivolous suit and wasting the courts time.

And...
No one will file private (civil) lawsuit because you get nothing from winning one.
- no damages need be proven, but these take years to decades to run through the courts.
Yes the Judge(s) can fiscally punish the defendant in the end, but Gov't keeps/distributes every penny to unaffiliated parties.
(Usually charitable organizations that are outside of the disagreement and have nothing to do with lawsuit.)

FYI in Canada they believe in publicly posting all their laws!!!
So here it is the Competition Act in full so that everyone can read and decide for yourself.
https://laws-lois.ju.../eng/acts/C-34/

https://laws-lois.ju...st/page-15.html
https://laws-lois.ju...a/eng/acts/h-6/

Edited by Akillius, 07 August 2019 - 04:15 PM.

[Orisos]

Red Potato Standing By, on 07 August 2019 - 04:11 PM, said:

I dunno i paid for the game and I am getting the game. Hell it might even be better because they are making more money from epic and taking longer to refine it. Also a lot of contracts do have clauses that say terms subject to change without notice and is a legal agreement. And really not trying to defend them but if I stopped using every business that did things that were shady well I would be a rich man cause I would have no where to spend it. But then I would have no money because I would be working for a business that probably at some point did something shady.

To the other point yes I couldn’t care less I just want to play the game, as long as they deliver that I don’t care how many times they change there venues to increase their profits.

They didn't change their "venue." They took a flat amount of cash in return for exclusive digital rights management. This idea that online distribution platforms are "venues" is flat out corporate dystopia double-think. Imagine if Gamestop or Walmart purchased exclusive rights to distribute a game when all the customers were specifically informed they would be receiving the game via digital distribution. You can't defend EGS as a venue out of one side of your mouth and then pretend like PGI screwing over the customer in favor of the distributor is a-okay.

I was flat out told I was getting a Steam key that I could use to play the game at launch. Months after they took my money they informed me I would never be getting what I paid for, ever. That is not acceptable in any conceivable way. It wouldn't be acceptable if Activision gave Target exclusive rights to distribute its games via a hypothetical digital marketplace with their brand logo on it either.

The icing on the cake here is that they were Community Pre-Orders. People who will be playtesting the game, reporting bugs, stress testing the servers, and backing the game long before it is near completion. So you're in the group of people that doesn't care. Good for you. Meanwhile, some of us are pissed off we were lied to, baited and switched, and PGI are being minimally accountable about it on top of all that.

Edited by Orisos, 07 August 2019 - 04:36 PM.

[Red Potato Standing By]

See I take it as they sold me a game that was going to be released on steam ( but the game was not yet done and as in the majority of other agreements terms are subject to change without notice) in the end they have delivered the game you have ordered. I will concede it is not the greatest business practice on a PR level. But I think they probably checked with their lawyers before they proceeded ( and not the internet kind)

[Orisos]

Red Potato Standing By, on 07 August 2019 - 04:42 PM, said:

See I take it as they sold me a game that was going to be released on steam ( but the game was not yet done and as in the majority of other agreements terms are subject to change without notice) in the end they have delivered the game you have ordered. I will concede it is not the greatest business practice on a PR level. But I think they probably checked with their lawyers before they proceeded ( and not the internet kind)

Whereas I'm telling you their lawyers are the ones that immediately said "Offer a refund or you're getting sued."

[Rhialto]

Akillius, on 07 August 2019 - 04:12 PM, said:

- But a full refund is offered, so expect 100% the lawsuit to get tossed.

Well, they collected a great amount of money for many months and in good hands, interests can bring a good amount. I'm not good enough in english to explain it correctly. Let's say 1 million in a year at 4% can bring an additional income. They won't give you any of that money back.

[Akillius]

Rhialto, on 07 August 2019 - 05:09 PM, said:

Well, they collected a great amount of money for many months and in good hands, interests can bring a good amount. I'm not good enough in english to explain it correctly. Let's say 1 million in a year at 4% can bring an additional income. They won't give you any of that money back.

Sorry but No.
As so many have pointed out that's why the full refund and not removing any MWO perks.

But as pointed out there's the civil suit.
But plaintiffs always get nothing except to carry the cost of lawsuit year after year.

Hmm simply put; laws, court system and lawyers all work lot like this video: (& win or loose they take your money...)

[Dee Eight]

C E Dwyer, on 07 August 2019 - 02:42 PM, said:

Still think switching was a good idea Russ ?

Let us know how it works out..

If even 2% of those million fortnite kiddies buys MW5... that's equal to the entire pre-order amount from here. Steam was never going to account for that many sales once it released. The thing is...as of March 2019, there were more than a QUARTER BILLION Fortnite players. If even 1% of those buy MW5.. that's three times as many as ever played MWO on Steam.

Edited by Dee Eight, 07 August 2019 - 11:02 PM.

[C0y0tl45]

I still have to laugh at all these people who cry about Epic Games and Tencent, and yet they will go ahead and use discord, without even checking out that Tencent has invested in that as well and is looking to buy that platform.

So by their own definitoion of Tencent taking their data, it's already gone you stupid morons, LMAO.


https://www.crunchba...ction-investors

Scroll down and see that it has Tencent holdings, you dipshits.

[Akillius]

C0y0tl45, on 07 August 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

I still have to laugh at all these people who cry about Epic Games and Tencent, and yet they will go ahead and use discord, without even checking out that Tencent has invested in that as well and is looking to buy that platform.

So by their own definitoion of Tencent taking their data, it's already gone you stupid morons, LMAO.


https://www.crunchba...ction-investors

Scroll down and see that it has Tencent holdings, you dipshits.

Whats epic and tencent got to do with it? Doesn't matter if it was origin, gog, or whoever buddy.
Its all about going exclusive, virtually eliminating mods, ignoring that most players have amassed a large steam library.
Won't even mention those 4 pre-order only mechs, that are now to be purchasable for cbills or mc.......
But signing that secret deal back when preorders were being sold and lying about it all for months.

Breaking news! Some people HATE STEAM and would've gladly preordered if they knew back in APRIL.
APRIL.
They've admitted to lying since April, and for all we know they are lying about that it could've been last friggin November FFS!

No I didn't file for refund, I'm waiting to see what they offer to stick around first. Aug 7th so only 2 weeks left for me.

[latinisator]

Akillius, on 07 August 2019 - 07:40 PM, said:

Whats epic and tencent got to do with it? Doesn't matter if it was origin, gog, or whoever buddy.

I beg to differ. If it was going to be on gog, I think the outrage would not have started. Origin, Uplay, yes, then most probably.
About that modding thing - we will see.

And oh my good Lord, they are now going to make the preorder Mechs available! The end is nigh! I would not even care if PGI were giving the Masakari collection (which I paid for and thus am privileged to judge about!!111!) for free to any new member. I still got the never again available C-Bill boost version with a unique camo, which sets them apart as being "unique". So, yeah, I am the cool kid that has the exclusives! (That is, for all intents and purposes, all I can read into the complaints about that concern.)

The thing about lying to customers..I am all with you. PGI would have had to make the change of the distribution platform clear from the very beginning. However, I am seeing it as some others do: I paid for MW5, blast that Steam Key imho!

[latinisator]

Akillius, on 07 August 2019 - 05:57 PM, said:

Hmm simply put; laws, court system and lawyers all work lot like this video

In other words: Judging on the events I have witnessed laws and courts are there to defend the industry and their rights, not the customers.

[Dee Eight]

Akillius, on 07 August 2019 - 07:40 PM, said:

Its all about going exclusive, virtually eliminating mods, ignoring that most players have amassed a large steam library..

Except...Steam has never really provided a great revenue source to PGI for all the effort at getting MWO into the steam store. At one point a year ago Valve leaked that a total of nearly 800k steam users had added MWO to their steam libraries... but most of those only played it a few times and then got bored/frustrated/tired of it and went to playing something else, without ever spending any actual money on it. Also the vast majority of players on Steam, according to valve, are NON english speaking (currently standing at 79%). Epic's exclusive deal with PGI has enabled them to add other language support to MW5 than english, and that's going to do more for the game's sales than being on Steam in english only would have.

Also...PGI is hardly alone in moving away from Steam... this article from PC Gamer magazine from January explained it well...

https://www.pcgamer....team-right-now/


Epic's latest deal will bring The Division 2 to the platform, and while Ubisoft's shared-world shooter will also release on Uplay, there are "no plans" to bring it to Steam.
That's a big deal, as along with CD Projekt and 2K (for now), Ubisoft has been one of the last big-publisher Steam holdouts. EA ditched it. Activision ditched it. Bethesda ditched it with Fallout 76. Blizzard never needed it. But with Uplay unable to gain quite the same purchase as Origin and Battle.net, Ubisoft hung on until Epic offered an alternative.
Should The Division 2 find success on the Epic Store, should we expect Ubisoft to make similar deals for its other games? Will 2019's Assassin's Creed release on Steam? That's a question for the first time.

[Dee Eight]

Rhialto, on 07 August 2019 - 05:09 PM, said:

Well, they collected a great amount of money for many months and in good hands, interests can bring a good amount. I'm not good enough in english to explain it correctly. Let's say 1 million in a year at 4% can bring an additional income. They won't give you any of that money back.

You must live in another country or you don't understand how businesses and banks work. The prime lending rate in Canada is only 3.95% right now. The highest any major bank pays in interest for a business checking account right now in Canada is at best, 0.5%. Even a high interest savings account (which has monthly transaction limits) tops out at about 1.4% among the major canadian banks. I don't know who PGI uses but if its CIBC... they're earning a whopping 0.1% interest on a business checking account.

Edited by Dee Eight, 07 August 2019 - 11:51 PM.

[Hemholtz]

Sigh...all this talk about bait-switch about steam key, not mentioning about the Epic exclusivity deal when taking pre-orders, Chinese spyware espionage, lawyers/courts/precedents in law, PGI killing the Mechwarrior franchise, PGI making a bad financial decision...and 64 pages worth...

So far I don't think any of this sounds new to me...and it's just the same old complaints of spyware in programs, IGP/PGI complaints, Russ not talking, coming up again and again....

Is there anything new to discuss here anyway?

Just hope PGI let's us stream beta footage...

[ingramli]

Hemholtz, on 08 August 2019 - 12:22 AM, said:

Sigh...all this talk about bait-switch about steam key, not mentioning about the Epic exclusivity deal when taking pre-orders, Chinese spyware espionage, lawyers/courts/precedents in law, PGI killing the Mechwarrior franchise, PGI making a bad financial decision...and 64 pages worth...

So far I don't think any of this sounds new to me...and it's just the same old complaints of spyware in programs, IGP/PGI complaints, Russ not talking, coming up again and again....

This is the only public area (where someone is reading) allows people to rant about the frustration and disappointment to the dishonesty of Russ and PGI, you dont need to spend time reading all the threads in this topic if you are not interested about why people are so upset with the arrangement from Steam to EGS. And TBH there is nothing much else to talk about as the beta testing is not going to happen anytime soon.

[Horseman]

Red Potato Standing By, on 07 August 2019 - 04:42 PM, said:

in the end they have delivered the game you have ordered

But not on the distribution platform the pre-orders were for, which is indeed a big ******* deal.

Quote

as in the majority of other agreements terms are subject to change without notice

By following your logic, PGI can change the terms again and release the game as a mobile-only title and you'd still be thanking them for it.

[Venturestein]

Just came back to see whos still crying about having to ditch STEAM! People love to ***** about everything. So glad I don't have to deal with the public anymore! If you don't like it get a refund END OF STORY!. Jesus what do you want an apology from PGI for wanting to make a little money off a title for a change.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Horseman, on 08 August 2019 - 12:45 AM, said:

But not on the distribution platform the pre-orders were for, which is indeed a big ******* deal.


By following your logic, PGI can change the terms again and release the game as a mobile-only title and you'd still be thanking them for it.

Hey i would be able to play it anywhere then, bonus...the point I am trying to make is it is business they are in it to make money. Some people have different thresholds of what they expect your’s and others are higher and that is fine, mine as i pointed out before is the game itself, now that being said if they release it and it turns out to not be a mech game and instead is something totally different then I will join in on the outrage.

[BrotherEJ]

I think everyone who is, so upset about this, should just leave. Why scream at the wind, the deal is done. You are not the one making the games and having to find the money, to pay everyone. Go. Take your money elsewhere, and don't look back. To cry in the forums, thinking you will change anything is pretty silly. Why stress yourselves out over nothing. You MBA's really don't know **** about running a business. Read your comments on this thread, you all are just trolling, for the fun of it. What has anyone lost here?

OH what about my data going to China. Yet you all use Discord lol. See ya all in game