128 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

You're confusing "contracts that require a retailer to buy a product from a certain supplier" with a deal by a supplier to sell one of their products exclusively to a certain retailer. These are not the same things, as two people have tried to tell you - be more careful reading your sources to avoid embarrassment in the future.

[Prototelis]

Horseman, on 29 July 2019 - 02:36 AM, said:

The shoe fits. Problem?

I have a hard time imagining someone being held hostage by a luxury good or a developer being forced to release on a platform. So no, the shoe doesn't fit.

Dumb.

Kotzi, on 29 July 2019 - 02:32 AM, said:

1. Completely missed the analogy.

I didn't miss the analogy, it was a bad analogy.

Quote

2. The example does not touch the point at all.
Nice try to change the topic, but distortion of competition with econimic means has little to do with IP and its protection.

Wut?

Edited by Prototelis, 29 July 2019 - 09:56 PM.

[Void Angel]

I find that some people are constitutionally unable to just say, "I really don't like this, and it's enough to make me walk away." They seem to require some kind of absolute moral justification for their action, hence "this is anti-competitive! That's wrong, and they should be ashamed! I'm leaving!"

Hence the arguments ad nauseum that they're definitely, incontestably right ("by definition,") and nothing you say to disagree can have merit.

[JadePanther]

This place has a long history of producing dumpster fires.. Every time it happens a portion of the user base leaves.. This big one just happens to be an EPIC dumpster fire..

Given the history of PGI's boondoggles and combine that with all of epics poopbird shenanigans over the past year, its not really a surprise that more people are yet agian turning thier backs on MWO..

Edited by JadePanther, 29 July 2019 - 11:24 PM.

[WarHippy]

Bud Crue, on 28 July 2019 - 05:06 AM, said:

Not suprised, as much as confused. I get the anger toward PGI/Russ for the whole EPIC betrayal in regard to MW5, I just don't see why that of all things would be the "last straw" for leaving MWO. I suppose my disconnect is derived from the fact that I have zero interest in MW5 whereas some, apparently, have only been "suffering" through MWO in anticipation of MW5, and now this whole EPiC thing means some of them have to wait another year until MW5 is presumably available on a platform they find less objectional.

So they have to wait another year, and so that means no longer playing the game that has been holding them over for the last 8 years? Now don't get me wrong, I get the rage, and empathize with the MW5 bait and switch anger even if I don't care about MW5. But leaving the game that has been filling the void and that costs you nothing to play because of this decision of all decisions just doesn't make much sense to me; but it doesn't surprise me that others feel differently.

I'm not sure why you are having a hard time with this. If someone has been giving you a flower everyday from their right hand and then after 8 years hits you with a left hook are you going to come back the next day for another flower? While they are two different games they are coming from the same person(s) who ****** up.

[Bud Crue]

WarHippy, on 30 July 2019 - 08:41 AM, said:

I'm not sure why you are having a hard time with this. If someone has been giving you a flower everyday from their right hand and then after 8 years hits you with a left hook are you going to come back the next day for another flower? While they are two different games they are coming from the same person(s) who ****** up.

Not a hard time. Just don’t think it makes sense. Even in your scenario: you had 8 years of metaphorical flowers (something I would never pretend is analogous to the last 8 years of MWO) and the blow that drives you from continuing your daily flower receipt is the “left hook” in the form of a bunch of now free MWO goodies and a full refund of the purchase price of a game that will still be available but just not on a platform that was advertised.

Your flowers aren’t interrupted. Your flower receipt has not been detrimentally affected in any way. You have not been hit in the face with a left hook. At best your new hoped for flower gifting mechanism is just delayed, at most by a year; or you may choose to go get it on a new platform. Either way the old flower receiving arrangement is still there, still waiting to give you flowers, but because the new system is delayed/changed you choose not to get flowers at all.

To me MWO and what it provides as an entertainment is totally separate from the MW5 boondoggle. MWO costs me nothing. Getting a refund and a bunch of now free MWO stuff would seem to me to be an incentive to keep playing, assuming I enjoy MWO even a little bit. But apparently that refund and free goodies is akin to a punch in the face that has finally made playing MWO too painful. OK. If MWO was scratching the itch for 8 years and the “left hook” of MW5 going to EPIC made that itch go away good on ya.

Edited by Bud Crue, 30 July 2019 - 09:41 AM.

[Tom Sawyer]

I used to play like a fiend. AJ, OLD, -MS- , 77TH BW, and then just pugging it with many drops with LORS. I finally just replaced myself with a robot and programed it assassinate Bud when he least expects it.

[Kotzi]

Void Angel, on 29 July 2019 - 08:46 AM, said:

You're confusing "contracts that require a retailer to buy a product from a certain supplier" with a deal by a supplier to sell one of their products exclusively to a certain retailer. These are not the same things, as two people have tried to tell you - be more careful reading your sources to avoid embarrassment in the future.

OMG.
Contract = Deal. Retailer A buys from Supplier B is the same as Supplier B sells to Retailer A.

[Knight Captain Morgan]

It’s not news about MW5 that makes me not want to play MWO. In fact, for a while now it’s been the opposite. Personal excitement for MW5 getting so close was the only thing keeping me logging onto MWO to scratch the stompy robot itch. Now that it’s been delayed again by at least 15 months until December 2020, it’s release is nowhere near close enough to make me feel excited.

[WarHippy]

Bud Crue, on 30 July 2019 - 09:40 AM, said:

Not a hard time. Just don’t think it makes sense. Even in your scenario: you had 8 years of metaphorical flowers (something I would never pretend is analogous to the last 8 years of MWO) and the blow that drives you from continuing your daily flower receipt is the “left hook” in the form of a bunch of now free MWO goodies and a full refund of the purchase price of a game that will still be available but just not on a platform that was advertised.

Your flowers aren’t interrupted. Your flower receipt has not been detrimentally affected in any way. You have not been hit in the face with a left hook. At best your new hoped for flower gifting mechanism is just delayed, at most by a year; or you may choose to go get it on a new platform. Either way the old flower receiving arrangement is still there, still waiting to give you flowers, but because the new system is delayed/changed you choose not to get flowers at all.

To me MWO and what it provides as an entertainment is totally separate from the MW5 boondoggle. MWO costs me nothing. Getting a refund and a bunch of now free MWO stuff would seem to me to be an incentive to keep playing, assuming I enjoy MWO even a little bit. But apparently that refund and free goodies is akin to a punch in the face that has finally made playing MWO too painful. OK. If MWO was scratching the itch for 8 years and the “left hook” of MW5 going to EPIC made that itch go away good on ya.

To me it sounds like you are advocating for people to stay in an abusive relationship. So what if they beat you for no reason from time to time they still treat you well the other times and I'm sure they actually still love you...

[Bud Crue]

WarHippy, on 30 July 2019 - 11:26 AM, said:

To me it sounds like you are advocating for people to stay in an abusive relationship. So what if they beat you for no reason from time to time they still treat you well the other times and I'm sure they actually still love you...

In your analogy the “abusive relationship” comprises 8 years of daily flowers and a “left hook” at the end.
The left hook is not being delivered but that which has given you flowers (MWO), but rather by the fact that a new suitor (MW5) is not going to be coming to call as soon as you would have liked or in a manner that you approve (STEAM, GOG).

If you want to see the whole EPIC thing as “the last straw” as others in their thread have, I get it. PGI has screwed with your expectations for the last time, yada, yada, yada. But the expectations that they are screwing with here in this “final” case has absolutely no impact on MWO or the enjoyment you may have gotten from playing that game. It’s that decision to import PGI’s bad act regarding MW5/EPIC onto your MWO enjoyment that I think is a tad irrational. But if you consider continuing to play a game that you have enjoyed at least to some extent for 8 years to be participating in an “abusive relationship” because of a decision that impacts a different game, which doesn’t even exist yet, well then good for you in breaking that cycle of violence. I’m going to risk another “left hook” and keep playing.

Edit:
Hey Mods!
Why is this now in the Battletech thread? Wth?

Edited by Bud Crue, 30 July 2019 - 11:45 AM.

[Horseman]

Prototelis, on 29 July 2019 - 04:56 PM, said:

I have a hard time imagining someone being held hostage by a luxury good or a developer being forced to release on a platform. So no, the shoe doesn't fit.

You completely misconstrued what the "hostage" part of the term refers to. It's not the user that's the "hostage", it's the software itself.

[Racerxintegra2k]

Bud Crue, on 27 July 2019 - 06:22 AM, said:

So PGI went EPIC exclusive for MW5. I get that some who claim that the promised STEAM key was a key determinate for pre-order are upset by the switch, and as such feel justified for getting a refund. Same for all the folks who feel that EPIC is evil or dodgy, or just not a platform they want to deal with. Fine. No MW5 for all of you, no money for PGI from you.

But what I don't get from a lot of the posts I am seeing is that this is making some of the longest term players assert that not only will this result in them not purchasing MW5 but also that they are "done" with MWO as well. Why? You got all the MWO goodies for free now that you got your refund, so what is the problem with MWO? Is it suddenly no fun? Did it finally occur to you that PGI doesn't care about you? Do you think not playing a dying free game is going to punish them for the perceived wrong of how they are handling MW5? I mean of all the crap that has been done to this game over the years why is this the thing that has finally driven you to leave MWO?

Just curious.

PGI killed my unit with the FP loyalty patch and then Russ's AMA. After that, finding a match was just to annoying. The people kept me here this long. PGI ran them off.

[Mole]

Bud Crue, on 27 July 2019 - 06:22 AM, said:

So PGI went EPIC exclusive for MW5. I get that some who claim that the promised STEAM key was a key determinate for pre-order are upset by the switch, and as such feel justified for getting a refund. Same for all the folks who feel that EPIC is evil or dodgy, or just not a platform they want to deal with. Fine. No MW5 for all of you, no money for PGI from you.

But what I don't get from a lot of the posts I am seeing is that this is making some of the longest term players assert that not only will this result in them not purchasing MW5 but also that they are "done" with MWO as well. Why? You got all the MWO goodies for free now that you got your refund, so what is the problem with MWO? Is it suddenly no fun? Did it finally occur to you that PGI doesn't care about you? Do you think not playing a dying free game is going to punish them for the perceived wrong of how they are handling MW5? I mean of all the crap that has been done to this game over the years why is this the thing that has finally driven you to leave MWO?

Just curious.

For me, I've simply lost interest in the game. But I certainly won't be spending any more real money on it. This has probably already been stated somewhere in this thread but in case it hasn't, I believe the exodus from MWO as a result of the epic exclusivity probably follows the logic of hitting PGI right in their wallets by boycotting all PGI products, including MWO. That's what I'm doing. I hope they have to file for bankruptcy after this little stunt.

[Void Angel]

Kotzi, on 30 July 2019 - 10:06 AM, said:

OMG.
Contract = Deal. Retailer A buys from Supplier B is the same as Supplier B sells to Retailer A.

Except that it's not the same, and your source for it being the same exluded your example from its list of examples. So my objection stands, since you've yet to answer it.

If Best Buy contracted to only buy their televisions from Sony, that would be anti-competitive, because customers coming into the store no longer have the ability to compare different offerings of the same item - only different offerings by the same producer. But if Sony contracted to only sell to Best Buy, they're still in competition with all the other brands of television the store offers. Market competition happens at the point of sale.

By your measure everyone is anti-competitive! Store brands are anti-competitive, exclusive give-away sweepstakes at fast food restaurants are anti-competitive... company retail outlets are anti-competitive... You're like the Oprah of bad business advice here. Either you are wrong for the reason I just gave you in the last paragraph, or your definition is so broad as to be useless.

Either way, you're talking nonsense.

Edited by Void Angel, 01 August 2019 - 04:56 PM.

[Kotzi]

Wow, really wow. If i can only buy Sony at one place where is the competition? You cant win an argument with switching the talking point as you please. We do have to keep to the topic. You doing this just to "win" this conversation? Creating "complex", abstruse, nonsensical construct to bamboozle and hope no one can see through this?

[Void Angel]

The other stores is where the competition is. Competition happens at the point of sale. Otherwise, if Best Buy doesn't carry Sony products - even Sony products for a certain size of television - they're denying their customers access to Sony products, and that would be anti-competitive! It doesn't matter if there's a contract or not; the result to the customer is the same. So Best buy has to carry ALL THE THINGS under your conditions, or they're denying their customers the right to choose between alternatives, and thus stifling competition. In fact, everyone does! Taco Bell doesn't serve hamburgers?! That's anti-competitive! The local nail salon doesn't carry literally every brand of nail extensions? Stifling competition! US Bank doesn't offer to set you up with an account at Wells Fargo?! STIFLING COMPETITION! Your error is that you're ignoring the customer's agency to walk down the street to another store. The definition you're using is so broad as to encompass literally everything, as I explained before. Hand-waving my argument away as "a 'complex,' abstruse, nonsensical construct" serves only to announce that you didn't understand the argument well enough to effectively disagree.

Accusing me of changing the subject by responding to your own objections is unsupportable; doing it in the same breath that you try to switch back to your own "talking point" is laughable - accusing me of trying to "bamboozle" you because you can't find a flaw in my argument is just inane. I've given you logical arguments, counter-examples, and detailed explanations of my position - you've responded with amateur-hour attempts at sophistry, because your arguments were defeated and you have nothing left.

Your desire to have an extreme moral justification for disliking a business decision doesn't excuse you from the rules of argument - and under those rules, you lose.

ciao.

[Kotzi]

There is no other stores when you say Sony only sells to Best Buy. Thats your example, your own words.

Void Angel, on 01 August 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

...But if Sony contracted to only sell to Best Buy, they're still in competition with all the other brands of television the store offers.

Sony only sells to Best Buy, where is my choice when i can only buy a Sony at Best Buy? Why do you bring up other televisions? I want to buy MW5, PGI only sells to Epic, there is no competition and it doesnt matter if i can still buy other not Epic exclusive games. Stick to the question and answer it. Where is the competition when i can only buy at one source?

[Void Angel]

I've answered your question THREE TIMES and counting, now! Your choice is to walk down the street to another store and buy something there. Or order on the internet, or mail-order from a catalog... any outlet for new televisions will suffice. You are not being charged to use Epic's service. You are not being forced to use Epic's services for any other game unless it also contracts exclusively with Epic. There is literally no bar on competition between MWO and any other game you wish to buy - aside from your desire not to use the Epic store. But that's a you issue; if I don't buy from Best Buy because their commercials offend me, or I don't like their return policy, Best Buy isn't being "anti-competitive." The only way a store exclusive is anti-competitive is if they literally kidnap you and force you to buy from that outlet!

But that's exactly what you allege, because that's how broad your definition goes. You don't understand the subject; you don't know why Best Buy selling only Sony would be anti-competitive, but Sony only offering their products to Best Buy would not. I could explain it to you, because I took the coursework, but I've done that three times and it just bounced off, without a single meaningful objection.

Remedial instruction is available at your local institution of higher learning. I'd happily teach you myself, but you won't learn.

[Kotzi]

OK, i try one final time, afterwards i have to give up because you cant put it more simple than that although it really hasnt been that hard to understand, if you are willing to of course.

PGI sells MW5 exclusively to EPIC. People that want to buy MW5 dont have the possibility to choose where to buy the game. I say that means that there is no competition because EPIC is the only place you can buy it. You say no its not you can still buy other non EPIC eclusive games elsewhere. What a stupid answer is that?