139 replies to this topic

[5th Fedcom Rat]

Prototelis, on 28 July 2019 - 01:28 PM, said:

Theres also the battletech version of the "Expanded universe" which rarely agrees with itself, except for important plot points.

I think it's being way too harsh to say it "rarely agrees with itself". Name me any other fictional sci-fi universe in entertainment that is as internally consistent over 35 years of releases as Battletech has been. Especially before the Wizkids/Dark Age takeover, FASA had an incredible universe evolving year by year.

Just look at what a joke the lore of Star Wars and Star Trek are in comparison.

Sorry to say, but I don't agree with a single thing you've said about Battletech in this thread so far. Especially the Gundam Clan mechs with melee weapons.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 28 July 2019 - 05:32 PM.

[Prototelis]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 28 July 2019 - 05:29 PM, said:

I think it's being way too harsh to say it "rarely agrees with itself". Name me any other fictional sci-fi universe in entertainment that is as internally consistent over 35 years of releases as Battletech has been. Especially before the Wizkids/Dark Age stumble, FASA had an incredible universe evolving year by year.

Star Wars. Judge Dredd.

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Just look at what a joke the lore of Star Wars and Star Trek are in comparison.

Jokes? Those are two of the highest grossing Sci-Fi IPs out there; and they have a much more unified canon than Battletech.

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Sorry to say, but I don't agree with a single thing you've said about Battletech in this thread so far.

Thats fine, you're free to do that, and I don't actually care about your opinion. Theres a reason why the IP isn't popular and you can't blame all of it on Harmony Gold.

[Bombast]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 28 July 2019 - 05:29 PM, said:

Just look at what a joke the lore of Star Wars and Star Trek are in comparison.

A more direct comparison would probably be Warhammer 40k. And oh boy, from a consistency standpoint, Battletech really stands out in that face-off.

Prototelis, on 28 July 2019 - 05:35 PM, said:

Jokes? Those are two of the highest grossing Sci-Fi IPs out there; and they have a much more unified canon than Battletech.

Star War's EU canon was actually kind of a mess. Best case scenario was often authors fighting with each other over where they though the series should go in published novels, worst case scenario everything was just jacked up and inconsistency abound.

What huge canon problems are in Battletech? The biggest ones I can think of are the sentient aliens (All of which are canon and conflict with nothing in the universe) and the jedi powers, which editors have declared is just characters in-universe being mistaken (The actual novels themselves stand up to this change. The character rules... not so much, I guess).

[Prototelis]

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Star War's EU canon was actually kind of a mess. Best case scenario was often authors fighting with each other over where they though the series should go in published novels, worst case scenario everything was just jacked up and inconsistency abound.

Actually best case was Lucasarts actually sat down and decided what was actually canon instead of doing fuckall about it.

Disney throwing out almost all of EU to make room for the new movies was a mistake, IMO.

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What huge canon problems are in Battletech?

Particularly there are a lot of inconsistencies around the technology and the way it functions. The most famous example being "stackpoling."

Like I said, the novels generally all adhere to the same plot points.

[Anjian]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 28 July 2019 - 05:29 PM, said:

I think it's being way too harsh to say it "rarely agrees with itself". Name me any other fictional sci-fi universe in entertainment that is as internally consistent over 35 years of releases as Battletech has been. Especially before the Wizkids/Dark Age takeover, FASA had an incredible universe evolving year by year.

Just look at what a joke the lore of Star Wars and Star Trek are in comparison.

Sorry to say, but I don't agree with a single thing you've said about Battletech in this thread so far. Especially the Gundam Clan mechs with melee weapons.

Wizkids and Dark Age are both Jordan Weisman creations and he helmed these till he sold out to Topps.


I remember a conversation with fellow Dark Age players, that the very problem of Battletech is Jordan Weisman himself. He is an awful business and franchise manager. All the decisions that would louse up the franchise in the long term stem from him.

[Bombast]

Anjian, on 28 July 2019 - 06:08 PM, said:

I remember a conversation with fellow Dark Age players, that the very problem of Battletech is Jordan Weisman himself. He is an awful business and franchise manager. All the decisions that would louse up the franchise in the long term stem from him.

I don't think Weisman is necessarily a bad businessman, he's just got... different priorities. He builds and sells gaming companies, basically. It's great for making money. Not necessary great for making healthy IPs.

[Anjian]

Bombast, on 28 July 2019 - 06:11 PM, said:

I don't think Weisman is necessarily a bad businessman, he's just got... different priorities. He builds and sells gaming companies, basically. It's great for making money. Not necessary great for making healthy IPs.

He is creative --- he invented Hero Clix and all the Clix games which are still doing well to this day, but he sells out at the slightest whiff. See selling HBS to Paradox. So he just goes from one start up to another start up, but the lack of persistence and focus means he cannot build up that one thing into something really big.

Dr Hobo, on 28 July 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

Battletech wont ever recover until all the licences are under the same roof again.

Its simply too difficult to actually build a coherent world again. HBS is doing stuff with the 3rd Succession War,and that's cool and all. So maybe HBS can keep it going,but i doubt it if they keep using that godawful Unity engine.

But for Mechwarrior? I doubt well see a gem as Mechwarrior 4 and it's expansions again. Sure it had it's problems,and I replayed it again recently. But man,those mechs feel like mechs.

When it comes to game engines, if you are an indy, you don't have much of a choice between Awful Unity and Evil Unreal.

[Feral Clown]

Prototelis, on 28 July 2019 - 10:53 AM, said:

Battletech won't recover until it gets rebooted into something that makes sense, isn't primarily informed by arbitrary board game mechanics, and isn't borderline racist in places.

The racist stuff I am not sure really translates unless you are having a card carrying SJW scanning it over. I mean for crying out loud lot of folks said Jar Jar Binks was cause racism of coarse (instead of just bad/lazy comic relief).

The board game stuff absolutely. Doesn't translate to something you are in actual control of and is closer to a simulator. I mean for years on these forums there bad players who wanted to be made whole, not by improving but insisting the game needed cone of fire mechanics to remove aiming/accuracy....more like a dice roll!

Another thing that drives me nuts is all this stock mech nonsense. Literally the lore is littered with great pilots and their customized mechs, but no the pure thing to do is not role play yourself into having your own custom mech? As I have said before we have people role playing so hard they feel the need to role play cannon fodder, it's bizarre.

Guaranteed to none of these proponents even tuned into the MWOWC last year to see how slow and limiting it was compared to the previous years. That choice and the number of really high skilled comp guys from the game hurt more than a lot of people understand.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Feral Clown, on 28 July 2019 - 06:17 PM, said:

The racist stuff I am not sure really translates unless you are having a card carrying SJW scanning it over. I mean for crying out loud lot of folks said Jar Jar Binks was cause racism of coarse (instead of just bad/lazy comic relief).

The board game stuff absolutely. Doesn't translate to something you are in actual control of and is closer to a simulator. I mean for years on these forums there bad players who wanted to be made whole, not by improving but insisting the game needed cone of fire mechanics to remove aiming/accuracy....more like a dice roll!

Another thing that drives me nuts is all this stock mech nonsense. Literally the lore is littered with great pilots and their customized mechs, but no the pure thing to do is not role play yourself into having your own custom mech? As I have said before we have people role playing so hard they feel the need to role play cannon fodder, it's bizarre.

Guaranteed to none of these proponents even tuned into the MWOWC last year to see how slow and limiting it was compared to the previous years. That choice and the number of really high skilled comp guys from the game hurt more than a lot of people understand.

Yup you can't shoe horn rules made for a true based table top game in to a videogame and expect it to work well at all.

[Bombast]

Feral Clown, on 28 July 2019 - 06:17 PM, said:

Guaranteed to none of these proponents even tuned into the MWOWC last year to see how slow and limiting it was compared to the previous years. That choice and the number of really high skilled comp guys from the game hurt more than a lot of people understand.

To be fair, having a stock tournament was a neat idea. Making it the tournament was the bizarre move.

[Prototelis]

I mean, thats kind of another bonkers aspect of the lore. The way the stock mechs are set up doesn't make much sense.

Feral Clown, on 28 July 2019 - 06:17 PM, said:

The racist stuff I am not sure really translates unless you are having a card carrying SJW scanning it over. I mean for crying out loud lot of folks said Jar Jar Binks was cause racism of coarse (instead of just bad/lazy comic relief).

You can say that all you want; but we live in a very different world today.

There are a lot of reasons why the IP doesn't appeal to a broad audience, its tone in a few places is just one of them.

Edited by Prototelis, 28 July 2019 - 06:26 PM.

[LordNothing]

omg that op. just post a gif of a burning dumpster and spare my eyes.

[HammerMaster]

Sick of you guys crapping all over BattleTech. Here you sit "top players" and all you discuss is the perceived shortcomings of actual rules and fluff and backstories and stock load outs, also LRM hate and "MechDad" shaming, and now the "tone"? I'm out. Seriously. I'll not participate and anymore of your denigrating of BattleTech. Say what you want about PGIs decisions. But for years I have called out you "top" and "comp" crowd by saying you HATE BattleTech. Finally here's the confirmation.

Edited by HammerMaster, 29 July 2019 - 04:21 AM.

[Ssamout]

Haha lol ok, seeya shirley. Dont let the lore hit you on your way out.

[Skoll]

Prototelis, on 28 July 2019 - 10:53 AM, said:

Battletech won't recover until it gets rebooted into something that makes sense, isn't primarily informed by arbitrary board game mechanics, and isn't borderline racist in places.

lol you're one of those. I will never understand the feeble mindedness of people who scream racism at 30+ year old properties. Instead of trying to change everything to your narrow and PC vision, go somewhere else?

Or continue to scream into a void about it, which is more likely.

[MechaBattler]

If we didn't have TT as a basis for the lore and overall franchise. We'd have Hawken.

I think the bits and pieces of the franchise will continue to ink out an existance. But if we wanted the franchise to really take off. We'd need all of the Battletech rights to be under one unified banner. But be careful what you wish for you. You might get more Dark Age.

[Sigmar Sich]

MechaBattler, on 29 July 2019 - 10:09 AM, said:

If we didn't have TT as a basis for the lore and overall franchise. We'd have Hawken.

I think the bits and pieces of the franchise will continue to ink out an existance. But if we wanted the franchise to really take off. We'd need all of the Battletech rights to be under one unified banner. But be careful what you wish for you. You might get more Dark Age.

The perfect scenario for me would be Sean Tracy taking over CIG, and making Star Citizen the Battletech game.
Would involve some mighty waiting, though...

[Feral Clown]

HammerMaster, on 29 July 2019 - 03:20 AM, said:

Sick of you guys crapping all over BattleTech. Here you sit "top players" and all you discuss is the perceived shortcomings of actual rules and fluff and backstories and stock load outs, also LRM hate and "MechDad" shaming, and now the "tone"? I'm out. Seriously. I'll not participate and anymore of your denigrating of BattleTech. Say what you want about PGIs decisions. But for years I have called out you "top" and "comp" crowd by saying you HATE BattleTech. Finally here's the confirmation.

You're reading into that to fit your own narrative.

Stock loadouts are total garbo in an arena shooter and would make a good deal more sense in prolonged engagements with maps much larger and things thrown in like vehicles and such. It simply doesn't make sense in this 12v12 we have. It's not a disrespect to lore, it's respecting the reality of what we have which you can't turn into a story along the way to fit lore....or we wouldn't have the IS and Clan mechs fighting side by side now would we?

Lrm hate is not lore hate. It's bad implementation and poor player behaviour hate.

Hate on 'mechdads' who would insist on bringing 'lore' builds to quick play is also not hating Battletech. It's hating people who are not accepting or oblivious to the fact it simply is not effective or smart thing to do in the game we have.

[thievingmagpi]

HammerMaster, on 29 July 2019 - 03:20 AM, said:

Sick of you guys crapping all over BattleTech. Here you sit "top players" and all you discuss is the perceived shortcomings of actual rules and fluff and backstories and stock load outs, also LRM hate and "MechDad" shaming, and now the "tone"? I'm out. Seriously. I'll not participate and anymore of your denigrating of BattleTech. Say what you want about PGIs decisions. But for years I have called out you "top" and "comp" crowd by saying you HATE BattleTech. Finally here's the confirmation.

cool, MWO isn't Battletech.

I'm not trying to take away from your experience or belittle your hobby, but there's really not much about this statement that is correct.

MWO and the MW series are very good adaptations of the BT ruleset, which themselves are messy, inconsistent and in some cases; barely acceptable for a TT game- let alone a PvP FPS.

most "top players" are MW fans, many are BT fans too.

Edited by thievingmagpi, 29 July 2019 - 11:31 AM.

[Feral Clown]

Prototelis, on 28 July 2019 - 06:24 PM, said:

I mean, thats kind of another bonkers aspect of the lore. The way the stock mechs are set up doesn't make much sense.


You can say that all you want; but we live in a very different world today.

There are a lot of reasons why the IP doesn't appeal to a broad audience, its tone in a few places is just one of them.

Actually I live in the exact same world I have always lived in, only with a whole bunch more new people.

It's also way more pronounced in North America where in it's current state can't continue, it's unsustainable and is dangerously stupid in a lot of cases. Revising history or judging it based on modern standards for instance is insane.

Also a fine example of the dumbing down of society. Treating people as a whole as too stupid to recognise that common practices or cultural differences from the past don't suit today is frightening. People don't need to be protected from the past in order to not relive it.