280 replies to this topic

[GuardDogg]

Prototelis, on 19 August 2019 - 05:16 PM, said:

Okay freud, I'll bite.

Its kind of aggravating. If there were any kind of actual matchmaker in this game; you probably wouldn't be in my games to begin with.

You see although I play comp, although I am ranked in the top 10%; I have yet to aquire the god tier carry power some of my peers poses.

So as a strong intermediate level player is is REALLY frustrating when I see players continually do the same bad things and act like they're beyond reproach.

Your negative interactions on this forum and in game stem from your behavior; your stats are merely a tool used to indentify that you don't have a leg to stand on when you want to discuss the nuances of this game from a place of authority; and in my mind that is precisely why you are so upset about it.

I am in T1. And I am seeing a huge mixture of Tier players lately. Then see, hear "Trash teams", "You suck", "Team sucks". Their is nothing we can do about it. We can be in a team of the best players and still lose, and get that one guy (or two), stating team sucks, trash team, and of course "Matchmaker"

Edited by GuardDogg, 19 August 2019 - 05:28 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

GuardDogg, on 19 August 2019 - 05:27 PM, said:

I am in T1.

What is the utility, in your mind, of bringing this point up? Genuine question.

[Prototelis]

GuardDogg, on 19 August 2019 - 05:27 PM, said:

Then see, hear "Trash teams", "You suck", "Team sucks". Their is nothing we can do about it.

Except that on an individual level we can do something about it. Let that sink in.

[Feral Clown]

GuardDogg, on 19 August 2019 - 05:01 PM, said:

Yes, I am upset. Toxic people do that to others. And I know you are you enjoyed our little feud, or you would have help bring us to peace. Peaceful, mindful, friendlier people work on truth, and find alternatives in solving problems. You don't. And you even said it, 'Cause truth is extraordinary painful?" So, what about stats? Is it painful to accept that it hurts others?

Sorry you are trying again to bring up stats and that is off topic.

I also don't find your misinterpretation of information or your tendency to call people names very peaceful so I disagree with you there.

I do appreciate that stats are something you are very angry and sore about, I just won't engage with you in a fruitless discussion of a topic you don't fully appreciate or understand.

So what would be peaceful and helpful is to discuss what we can do to try and get PGI to adjust matchmaker so that we have better matches for everyone.

Try and see if you are able to go five responses on the topic of bad teams without trying to derail the thread with your own personal grievances. Take at as a personal challenge and push yourself to grow.

Thank you for understanding.

[GuardDogg]

Feral Clown, on 19 August 2019 - 05:36 PM, said:

Sorry you are trying again to bring up stats and that is off topic.

I also don't find your misinterpretation of information or your tendency to call people names very peaceful so I disagree with you there.

I do appreciate that stats are something you are very angry and sore about, I just won't engage with you in a fruitless discussion of a topic you don't fully appreciate or understand.

So what would be peaceful and helpful is to discuss what we can do to try and get PGI to adjust matchmaker so that we have better matches for everyone.

Try and see if you are able to go five responses on the topic of bad teams without trying to derail the thread with your own personal grievances. Take at as a personal challenge and push yourself to grow.

Thank you for understanding.

Yeah, thought so. You called me names as well before hand. Didn't bother me then. But if name calling you bother you that much, hey I apologize. I am very sorry.

Prototelis, on 19 August 2019 - 05:34 PM, said:

Except that on an individual level we can do something about it. Let that sink in.

What? That I see, hear toxic? I just play.

Edited by GuardDogg, 19 August 2019 - 05:41 PM.

[GuardDogg]

Y E O N N E, on 19 August 2019 - 05:33 PM, said:

What is the utility, in your mind, of bringing this point up? Genuine question.

Yes, I earned it. Was hard work. But will not insult others about it (shouldn't be there, or have no say MWO subjects). Not the only one said it here "Top 10%",

Edited by GuardDogg, 19 August 2019 - 05:58 PM.

[Feral Clown]

GuardDogg, on 19 August 2019 - 05:39 PM, said:

Yeah, thought so. You called me names as well before hand. Didn't bother me then. But if name calling you bother you that much, hey I apologize. I am very sorry.

I appreciate your apology. I am also sorry if I offended you by some of what I said. Honestly though I really feel there is an issue here with language barrier.

Glad you are coming around and willing to engage in productive conversation instead of harping on a personal pet peeve.

[GuardDogg]

Feral Clown, on 19 August 2019 - 06:03 PM, said:

I appreciate your apology. I am also sorry if I offended you by some of what I said. Honestly though I really feel there is an issue here with language barrier.

Glad you are coming around and willing to engage in productive conversation instead of harping on a personal pet peeve.

Finally we can come together peacefully. Takes a man to man. MWO online Forums is not a easy one.

[Feral Clown]

GuardDogg, on 19 August 2019 - 05:53 PM, said:

Yes, I earned it. Was hard work. But will not insult others about it (shouldn't be there, or have no say MWO subjects). Not the only one said it here "Top 10%",

Not to be insulting but you seem to not grasp that you didn't earn being in tier one, no one does. You simply play long enough and eventually everyone gets there.

One of the issues many of us have continually complained to PGI is having everyone in tier one doesn't allow matchmaker to work effectively to balance teams. Currently all tier ones are considered equal so matchmaker can't sort out the top 10% from the bottom 50%. So it will often put a bunch of players who are very good together on one team and leave the other team with players who are not very good. Then matches are imbalanced and not fun for either side. What we want is not to shame people but to have more games that are in the 12-8 or 12-11 than the ever so common 12-0.

[GuardDogg]

Feral Clown, on 19 August 2019 - 06:09 PM, said:

Not to be insulting but you seem to not grasp that you didn't earn being in tier one, no one does. You simply play long enough and eventually everyone gets there.

One of the issues many of us have continually complained to PGI is having everyone in tier one doesn't allow matchmaker to work effectively to balance teams. Currently all tier ones are considered equal so matchmaker can't sort out the top 10% from the bottom 50%. So it will often put a bunch of players who are very good together on one team and leave the other team with players who are not very good. Then matches are imbalanced and not fun for either side. What we want is not to shame people but to have more games that are in the 12-8 or 12-11 than the ever so common 12-0.

Yeah, wouldn't want a beginner T5 with a T1 in opposite teams or T5 with T1 same team. Would make the new player not play anymore or achieving nothing. Want to make players feel comfortable where they are at and with the same Tier players. But now, the population is dropping. Never know what it will be like in the next few months. When I was in T3, Went down a Tier, and progressed back up. Was a struggle.

Edited by GuardDogg, 19 August 2019 - 06:26 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Mystere, on 19 August 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:

Unless somebody here has already said so, I should remind everyone that the Tier/PSR system was designed to only separate new from experienced players. Period. Despite its name, actual "skill" had nothing to do with it. As such, it was is working as intended as long as tier separation was has been kept to the bare minimum (i.e. 1 tier spread). But now the release valves seem to be wide open.

As per my previous post, release values do not have to be opened to get a wide range of skills (based on Match Scores) within two tiers, while well known or popular players who keep saying that the release valves of the MM are wide open...leading others to believe the MM is broken due to using ALL Tiers, which is likely further from the truth. Fewer games played, the closer to 90% win/loss ratio a player with 170-190 avg MS needs to be in Tier 1 and Tier 2.

Fewest games I have found so far is from a player who has played, posted on the forums and have selected to show their Tier.

8.2k games
avg 173 MS
0.82 W/L Ratio
Tier 2. And that is only for players who have turned on show their tier and have posted.

27k games
avg 171 MS
0.83 W/L Ratio
Tier 2

10k games
avg 184 MS
0.79 W/L Ratio
Tier 2

11k games
avg 192 MS
0.98 W/L Ratio
Tier 1

24k games
avg 184 MS
0.88 W/L Ratio
Tier 1

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6285329
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6285009

Players who have played enough games while barely hitting the necessary PSR thresholds are already in Tier 1 and 2. Sub 180 MS and winning approx 42-43% (84-86% Win/Loss Ratio) of their games....And having a larger population would not have prevented that from happening. Having a larger population, if there was no real change in ratio with where the population would fall on the curve would still see players with low MS/low W/L ratio dropping with players with high MS scores and high W/L ratio.

Again, MS valves do not have to be opened for that to happen. And I am only in Tier 1 by doing just above the minimum PSR threshold and having played enough games, simply an average player. / Just laughs.. and I have been this Tier for almost 2 years?

Edit.. still enjoying the main event though, until something gets locked down

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 19 August 2019 - 06:27 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

GuardDogg, on 19 August 2019 - 05:53 PM, said:

Yes, I earned it. Was hard work. But will not insult others about it (shouldn't be there, or have no say MWO subjects). Not the only one said it here "Top 10%",

Ok. You earned it. That's not what is in question.

Follow-up question: do you think all players in Tier 1 have the same level of skill?

[GuardDogg]

Y E O N N E, on 19 August 2019 - 06:27 PM, said:

Ok. You earned it. That's not what is in question.

Follow-up question: do you think all players in Tier 1 have the same level of skill?

That is a difficult question to those who struggle (work hard at it, finding ways to win), to those who can get there with ease. Because some who try, work hard on their tiers, end up on losing teams, even not easy to carry. And then some just striving with out effort, on winning rounds. They can rise in tiers in a matter of time. We seen those.

Edited by GuardDogg, 19 August 2019 - 06:38 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

GuardDogg, on 19 August 2019 - 06:34 PM, said:

That is a difficult question to those who struggle (work hard at it, finding ways to win), to those who can get there with ease. Because some who try, work hard on their tiers, end up on losing teams, even not easy to carry. And then some just striving with out effort, on winning rounds. They can rise in tiers in a matter of time. We seen those.

Why is that a difficult question? The answer seems pretty apparent: if one pilot struggles to win and the other does not, by what grounds can you consider the struggling pilot to be equally skilled? You can throw out the random nature of match maker as a variable because everybody has to deal with it; it is a constant. While it is theoretically possible for a player to just always get the better team and seem way better than they are, that event is statistically improbable enough to be pragmatically impossible. If a player is winning with ease, he is a better player and not just coasting on the match-maker. We are, of course, just talking about Solo Queue. In groups, yes, you can get carried.

Having good thoughts is not enough to make one skilled, those thoughts have to also be executed well. If a player cannot execute, he is not as skilled as the player who can. It's pretty cut and dry.

Second follow-up question: did you know that you gain more PSR on a win than you lose on a loss, and that there are more conditions in which you can gain PSR than lose it? What do you think the effect of that is?

[Feral Clown]

GuardDogg, on 19 August 2019 - 06:23 PM, said:

Yeah, wouldn't want a beginner T5 with a T1 in opposite teams or T5 with T1 same team. Would make the new player not play anymore or achieving nothing. Want to make players feel comfortable where they are at and with the same Tier players. But now, the population is dropping. Never know what it will be like in the next few months. When I was in T3, Went down a Tier, and progressed back up. Was a struggle.

That's the crux of problem of our current system though. It considers me and Proton or Bear Claw the same. It's not fun when matchmaker lacks the basic ability to put Bear Claw and Proton on opposite sides and considers all tier one's equals. Players should be ranked better even if that means some will never progress out of a tier. The goal shouldn't be have everyone progressing into tier one.

I personally don't care if we have tier fives in matches with tier ones as long as each side gets an equal amount of each kind of players. In quick play I'd rather have quick searches.

[GuardDogg]

Y E O N N E, on 19 August 2019 - 06:49 PM, said:

Why is that a difficult question? The answer seems pretty apparent: if one pilot struggles to win and the other does not, by what grounds can you consider the struggling pilot to be equally skilled? You can throw out the random nature of match maker as a variable because everybody has to deal with it; it is a constant. While it is theoretically possible for a player to just always get the better team and seem way better than they are, that event is statistically improbable enough to be pragmatically impossible. If a player is winning with ease, he is a better player and not just coasting on the match-maker. We are, of course, just talking about Solo Queue. In groups, yes, you can get carried.

Having good thoughts is not enough to make one skilled, those thoughts have to also be executed well. If a player cannot execute, he is not as skilled as the player who can. It's pretty cut and dry.

Second follow-up question: did you know that you gain more PSR on a win than you lose on a loss, and that there are more conditions in which you can gain PSR than lose it? What do you think the effect of that is?

I see a mixture. Some that do not try get a huge match score, and those who do try get a huge match score. Both move up. Both say they are pro players. And others will say they are pros. One does nothing, compared to the one who put more effort. This is where the confusion is. Sometimes the role is reversed. The other day, the pilot who did not do much is now putting effort, to the other pilot who did put effort, is doing nothing, and they both get high scores. Also weight class, also weapons. They suck in Missles, compared to ballistics, or lasers. I have seen pilots sit back get 1200+ damage score, while the team took the beating. And then some who did more effort (carried the team), get 1200+ damage score. Some will say that pilot is a pro, and others will say the other pilot is pro.

Been in rounds with good best pilots in same team and would lose.

Edited by GuardDogg, 19 August 2019 - 07:51 PM.

[Prototelis]

That entire post made no sense.

[GuardDogg]

Prototelis, on 19 August 2019 - 07:17 PM, said:

That entire post made no sense.

What? Comparing two pilots, one does nothing, to the one who puts effort. Both get high scores. And some will say both pilots are good. They move up tiers. We see that.

(sorry, I have a headache). specially at my age.

Edited by GuardDogg, 19 August 2019 - 07:35 PM.

[Mystere]

Tarl Cabot, on 19 August 2019 - 06:23 PM, said:

As per my previous post, release values do not have to be opened to get a wide range of skills (based on Match Scores) within two tiers, while well known or popular players who keep saying that the release valves of the MM are wide open...leading others to believe the MM is broken due to using ALL Tiers, which is likely further from the truth. Fewer games played, the closer to 90% win/loss ratio a player with 170-190 avg MS needs to be in Tier 1 and Tier 2.

I don't know about the MM putting all tiers on the same selection bucket. But, I do see claims that T4s are seeing known T1s (and vice versa) in the same match. As such, by having looser tier separation, new players are being dropped with/against "experienced" ones.

Thus, we have 2 problems. The first is that loosened tier separation defeats the intended purpose of the tier system itself. The second is that tiers are meaningless beyond that same intended purpose.

The best recourse is to replace the current tier system with something else that is more reflective of "skill".

Alternatively, we can have separate ranked and unranked queues, with no transfers allowed (or at the very least, allowed only after really long intervals). However, that idea presents its own problems.

Feral Clown, on 19 August 2019 - 03:51 PM, said:

PGI has said that in a pod cast. Actually it was Paul specifically but I don't have a link handy. However, this information isn't helpful nor pertinent to how it can be fix but rather restating one of it's major flaws.
PGI also wouldn't have to rebuild anyting, just change values in a spreadsheet to at least stop it being so upwardly biased.

As a general rule, you cannot (i.e. should not) "fix" something to do a job it was not designed for in the first place. Otherwise, it's just a "hack".

Of course, there is such a things as "repurposing". However, that is an entirely different matter altogether and I doubt it is applicable here.

Edited by Mystere, 19 August 2019 - 07:34 PM.

[A Really Old Clan Dude]

I cant believe anyone takes the time to look up someones stats. Seriously I have better things to do.