280 replies to this topic

[Xiphias]

Prototelis, on 22 August 2019 - 02:31 PM, said:

Tiers don't even have to be zero sum to work correctly, they just need to take into account all of the performance data available when sorting people.

It only takes 24 people to make a decently balanced match.

Agreed, my point was only that for getting to T1 to be indicative of skill it would need to be zero sum or hard to get/maintain. Getting to T1 just requires a basic competency and a lot of matches. It's only a significant accomplishment if you have to get significantly better.

[Prototelis]

I personally think the game should have progression ranks as fluff, and a matchmaker rating that is hidden from the player.

[Feral Clown]

Xiphias, on 22 August 2019 - 02:55 PM, said:

Agreed, my point was only that for getting to T1 to be indicative of skill it would need to be zero sum or hard to get/maintain. Getting to T1 just requires a basic competency and a lot of matches. It's only a significant accomplishment if you have to get significantly better.

Except that it doesn't even require basic competency. Seen 23 percentile player with a tier one badge. Seen tons of folks with a wlr of .7 with tier one badge, which considering it's bias for wins, is pretty telling.

[Xiphias]

Feral Clown, on 22 August 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:

Except that it doesn't even require basic competency. Seen 23 percentile player with a tier one badge. Seen tons of folks with a wlr of .7 with tier one badge, which considering it's bias for wins, is pretty telling.

It's super low, but it is there. It is possible (though difficult) to stay in T5. I'm not saying being in T1 means a player is good by any stretch, but it does mean they aren't super terrible like they would have to be to stay permanently in T5. You can be bad and be in T1, but it does require some basic level of effort.

[Feral Clown]

Xiphias, on 22 August 2019 - 04:18 PM, said:

It's super low, but it is there. It is possible (though difficult) to stay in T5. I'm not saying being in T1 means a player is good by any stretch, but it does mean they aren't super terrible like they would have to be to stay permanently in T5. You can be bad and be in T1, but it does require some basic level of effort.

I know we are kinda splitting hairs a bit here, but I am saying you can be absolutely horrendous and still make tier one just by playing. Due to the rules around here I can name specific examples, but there are lots and lots to choose from.

Been asking PGI to adjust some of their values for years in lieu of psr or match maker re-do. Instead they've done the opposite on many occasion, such as when they relented to the potato community and gave match score bonuses for simply equipping AMS.

[Tarl Cabot]

The real issue is that the MM is only using a player's Tier to form up teams. It should be used in conjunction with MS. PSR should be revised, raising the thresholds for both wins/loses by at least 50pts, and possibly a tier realignment, reseeding players throughout the tiers but not dropping anyone back into Tier 5 if they currently are not in that tier. The reseeding is debatable simply due the issue of upsetting too many players who, even if they are the low hanging fruit and have played 10K+ games, may quit or become discourage to a lost of Tier (aka lost of levels)

But with them playing tons of games while the new PSR thresholds and MM using MS/Tier, that might be change enough to see more skill balanced teams. Wont stop stomps though, all one has to do is look at the MWOWC games but would make loses more bearable for some.

[Feral Clown]

Tarl Cabot, on 22 August 2019 - 05:05 PM, said:

The real issue is that the MM is only using a player's Tier to form up teams. It should be used in conjunction with MS. PSR should be revised, raising the thresholds for both wins/loses by at least 50pts, and possibly a tier realignment, reseeding players throughout the tiers but not dropping anyone back into Tier 5 if they currently are not in that tier. The reseeding is debatable simply due the issue of upsetting too many players who, even if they are the low hanging fruit and have played 10K+ games, may quit or become discourage to a lost of Tier (aka lost of levels)

But with them playing tons of games while the new PSR thresholds and MM using MS/Tier, that might be change enough to see more skill balanced teams. Wont stop stomps though, all one has to do is look at the MWOWC games but would make loses more bearable for some.

There'd be no point since there are players currently in tier one that absolutely should be dropped back into tier five for what you are saying to be even remotely effective.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Feral Clown, on 22 August 2019 - 05:16 PM, said:

There'd be no point since there are players currently in tier one that absolutely should be dropped back into tier five for what you are saying to be even remotely effective.

I don't think even that'd make a difference 'cause of the low population. Every bucket is open and we have T5 to T1 all in one match.

[Y E O N N E]

FRAGTAST1C, on 22 August 2019 - 09:03 PM, said:

I don't think even that'd make a difference 'cause of the low population. Every bucket is open and we have T5 to T1 all in one match.

The difference is that having an equal number of T1s on each side would actually mean something instead of the game thinking that both sides have the same number of T1s when, in reality, one side has more true T1s than the other.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Y E O N N E, on 22 August 2019 - 09:12 PM, said:

The difference is that having an equal number of T1s on each side would actually mean something instead of the game thinking that both sides have the same number of T1s when, in reality, one side has more true T1s than the other.

Oh, I'm not arguing against that. In fact, I've made a similar argument a while back and even brought in the kind of mechs that could mean T1's could struggle with as well against other T1's (like Warhammer IIC Bludgeon vs Marauder IIC). My point is that the MM isn't skill based. If it was, then true T1's would be fighting against true T1's. To add to that, the population is so low at the moment that, often, T5's are in T1 matches and it is worse when such T5's are using 100t Assault mechs like an Annihilator with machine guns. When this happens, there is almost nothing a proper T1 can do apart for playing farming simulator and do very well personally but still lose the match.

[Feral Clown]

FRAGTAST1C, on 22 August 2019 - 09:43 PM, said:

Oh, I'm not arguing against that. In fact, I've made a similar argument a while back and even brought in the kind of mechs that could mean T1's could struggle with as well against other T1's (like Warhammer IIC Bludgeon vs Marauder IIC). My point is that the MM isn't skill based. If it was, then true T1's would be fighting against true T1's. To add to that, the population is so low at the moment that, often, T5's are in T1 matches and it is worse when such T5's are using 100t Assault mechs like an Annihilator with machine guns. When this happens, there is almost nothing a proper T1 can do apart for playing farming simulator and do very well personally but still lose the match.

Doesn't matter though as you have actual tier fives that have tier one tags. There's probably a ton of players in tier four and five making their way up that are considerably better than a good portion of the players who've made it into tier one.

Heck you are relatively new and already you are better than a good clip of tier one players that have been around for years and years.

[Y E O N N E]

FRAGTAST1C, on 22 August 2019 - 09:43 PM, said:

My point is that the MM isn't skill based.

MM isn't skill-based because PSR isn't skill-based, my dude.

[PhoenixFire55]

Wow. Just wow. Are you people saying that terribads can't be tier 1? You all are just racist pigs!

P.S. Welcome to the 21st century btw.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

On behalf of all pigs, who are ever being humiliated, I forcefully object.

[Tarl Cabot]

FRAGTAST1C, on 22 August 2019 - 09:03 PM, said:

I don't think even that'd make a difference 'cause of the low population. Every bucket is open and we have T5 to T1 all in one match.

As noted in the other posts, MM is not an actual skill based MM. If everyone just in Tier 1 and 2 were reseeded in a similar way PSR was seeded from Elo, a portion would be all put back into Tier 4-5 and a much larger portion back to Tier 3 low Tier 2.

That would put approx total 6k in tier 4/5 instead of being spread out all the way to Tier 1 and 2, while putting 9K in tier 3, leaving approx 6K spread out between Tier 1 and 2. This was simply using active player count. How many players might be encouraged to return to the game, simply with this change? Of course there is the issue of players leaving because they are no longer Tier 1, even though their matchscores had would have them at Tier 4-5 levels.

Feral Clown, on 22 August 2019 - 05:16 PM, said:

There'd be no point since there are players currently in tier one that absolutely should be dropped back into tier five for what you are saying to be even remotely effective.

There is being effective then there is perceived backlash from players across the board. The PSR thresholds would also need to be upped, ensuring a slower rise and as well as having a higher possibility of losing PSR. Even with some changes imho PGI would be hesitate in making that big of a change by doing complete reseeding. Said players though could be dropped back to Tier 3, and with a revised PSR

Now if the MM were to utilize Matchscore initially within Tier 1 and 2, then opening it to Tier 3 before opening up the MS bracket, and with a revised PSR thresholds, even those of us who do not perform will be dropped down in tiers, with the more games being played, the quicker it would happen.

But it would be better to get changes in before MW5 is released, and not just with MM/PSR. With MWO in "maintenance mode" .. well...

[Xiphias]

Feral Clown, on 22 August 2019 - 04:40 PM, said:

I know we are kinda splitting hairs a bit here, but I am saying you can be absolutely horrendous and still make tier one just by playing. Due to the rules around here I can name specific examples, but there are lots and lots to choose from.

We don't disagree on this point. It's a semantics issue regarding what you/I consider basic competency.

It is possible to stay in T5 by being a really bad player. Being above this threshold allows you to move up and is what I consider the floor "basic competency". These players can point their mechs (mostly) at the enemy and shoot their guns at targets somewhat consistently, they will move up to T1 eventually. That doesn't mean they are truly competent or that they aren't bad players, but they do have a competence that someone who literally can't get out of T5 doesn't have. I think that's an important distinction to make. As bad as some of the players in T1 are, there are worse players in T5.

[The pessimistic optimist]

I never want to play assault mechs half the time because the team almost always abandons you to get picked apart by the enemy team.

[PhoenixFire55]

SirSmokes, on 23 August 2019 - 09:41 AM, said:

I never want to play assault mechs half the time because the team almost always abandons you to get picked apart by the enemy team.

W button OP.

[The pessimistic optimist]

PhoenixFire55, on 23 August 2019 - 09:46 AM, said:

W button OP.

W button over used right answer

[Y E O N N E]

The only Assaults I play regularly top out at 55 kph. I'm almost always at the front of the group.

You getting abandoned is a you problem.