149 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

N0MAD, on 27 November 2019 - 08:51 PM, said:

The AI is not industry standard, even 15 year old games like Guild Wars, have excellent AI, other nearly as old games like Age of Empires Online, and more in the same gender like ARMA all have excellent thinking AI, its by far not industry standard .
Try play those games thru or generated insta action missions then come back tell me about industry standard.
But i know youre going to defend MW5 like you defended and argued that FW was best thing since the beginning of gaming.
BTW, congrats, i here all the cool kids are using the "ok Boomer" expession, very catchy.

It is catchy. A cheap, simple way to express that the other person is never going to get your point.

ARMA excellent AI... Are ******* high? I love ARMA, I play it tons but mostly PvP and some coop because the AI is insanely bad. I mean the game is super complex but when the AI isn't shooting you through terrain that blocks all vision and always knowing exactly where you are through walls it's getting stuck or being unable to get out of doors. For everything it tries to do it's alright. I love the game and give it a lot of slack. It's certainly better than it used to be.

I never played Guild Wars but I googled " guild wars AI" and got pages of various forum posts saying it was terrible. However I realize that just like MW5 people have different expectations.

You watched a video of an extremely contrived situation. Play Raid, take mechs comparable to what you'll actually be playing. It's solid.

[HellJumper]

so i have been going through the gameplay videos as well.

will all types of missions be like zerg rushes? as in the enemy sending in all kinds of tanks, helis, mechs, turrets at you and you just destroy them all?

also is it me or it seems that the players mech take less damage as compared to the damage being output to enemy mech...

[FRAGTAST1C]

It's a demo with a fully unlocked mech list and weapons (minus the tiers) for the player to play in 5 types of preset Instant Action missions.

The players take less damage 'cause the AI doesn't focus fire. Only if you bring in some vanilla loadout and not be alert to incoming fire do you get badly damaged. For e.g., the Raid mission.

[ScrewyNinja]

I actually emailed support on the joystick issue. as I am running a Thrustmaster Cougar with rudder pedals. Nothing was recognized by the game. I got a response from the tech support guys in under 2 hours. to sum it up they are still coding the joystick inputs for some other older usb stuff. But I was assured that my current setup will be compatible with MW5. We shall see.....

[MischiefSC]

HellJumper, on 27 November 2019 - 10:28 PM, said:

so i have been going through the gameplay videos as well.

will all types of missions be like zerg rushes? as in the enemy sending in all kinds of tanks, helis, mechs, turrets at you and you just destroy them all?

also is it me or it seems that the players mech take less damage as compared to the damage being output to enemy mech...

Like prior MW titles and the majority of similar games it's mostly going to be you vs a lot of stuff.

Ayer mechs are optimized enemies are stock. Enemies tend to prioritize who's shooting them and not focus fire, however as you're usually out tonned significantly and you've got to pay for your repairs and the enemy doesn't I see the logic in it.

Getting the AI to focus fire and prioritize damaged locations is absolutely possible from an AI perspective and not particularly resource intensive in open environments so if that doesn't already happen with high skilled enemies in the campaign it'ss modable.

Just realize it'll up the risk dramatically - however I can see that being combined with higher salvage. So you're going to take a brutal beating more often but have more resources to repair with.

My expectations for the stock game is it's balanced for mech dads, which is fine. One of the biggest topics for discussion on the discord and here even is joystick issues if that gives you an idea of where the median is and that's okay. It's SP Battletech, it's supposed to be fun. Mods to hook up coop without epic game launcher, AI difficulty, mech modifications and new mechs/variants will almost certainly be the first ones out.

Look at Roguetech for HBS Battletech for an idea where modding can take the game. What's important is a good foundation (pathfinding, accuracy being good but not godlike, passable positioning awareness). Target designation and range preference as well as hit location priority (elite enemies aiming for damaged locations like a player would and focusing fire) is relatively simple and resource cheap. Those are decisions the AI is already making, you're just weighting them a particular direction.

Focus fire for AI will fall apart in urban settings though or it'll get messy because you'll have enemies trying to path to the focused target to get LOS and ignoring other threats or pathing stupidly. Again, AI can't "see" and with random environments there's no resource cheap way to get them to pick smart firing lanes. If it was a corridor shooter you could place hotspots for ranged mobs to prefer to shoot from but that's really not viable in this sort of game.

However there's a lot you can do with what's there. They've even got a pretty complex AI skill selection from rookie to elite already in. The pathing is good and total mob density, how many AI are active at once, seems high. The potential to mod it seems great.

[Thorn Hallis]

Anyone tried to mod the demo?

[Biomechtric]

I have received a reply from support regarding the joystick issue & here it is in PGI's own words.

[color=#2B2E2F]"We are currently gathering feedback and are hoping to have all the joystick issues ironed out before launch.[/color]
[color=#2B2E2F]If everything goes according to plan, you should be able to reassign any inputs while in-game."[/color]

[color=#2B2E2F]Everyone with input issues, please be patient. PGI are fully aware of the problem & it should be all fixed for the games official release date. Report any problems you have & be nice about it. Shouting & screaming like a full on tantrum child does nothing for anyone. [/color]

[meteorol]

Man, i was going to write a massive essay on my experience with the Demos AI, of mechs helplessly shuffling back and forth in wide open terrain while being under fire, of medium mechs casually strolling towards me in a straight line at 15mph while staring me down, of everything of the AI i have seen that made me shut down the demo after one hour and made me pretty sure i won't make it through the campaign before abandoning ship, but... that would be more effort than is justified.

The AI is bad. Utterly bad to be exact.
There is no way to suggercoat it. There is no need for massive justifications and comparisons to what other games did or did not. It is bad, remarkably bad. It does impact gameplay experience in a negative way. It will massively harm replay value and longlivity.

Mech combat will be the core experience of MW5. Not salvaging, not building mechs, not the elaborated story (lul). Combat. AI is so bad that i shut down the demo after one hour because combat got boring due to the terrible AI.

MischiefSC, on 27 November 2019 - 09:45 PM, said:

You watched a video of an extremely contrived situation. Play Raid, take mechs comparable to what you'll actually be playing. It's solid.

It dit. It's terrible.

Edited by meteorol, 28 November 2019 - 04:32 AM.

[Jyi]

FRAGTAST1C, on 27 November 2019 - 08:09 PM, said:

Plus, there are comments on here about taking a single Assault and winning the entire mission solo. Good! That's what I like. But in this context of their complaint, they're failing to see that they've access to all the weapons. Yes, they don't have access to better tiers but all the weapons are available to customize their loadout with. Try doing something like that when you don't have access to weapons such as Gauss rifles and ERPPCs or LBX 10 slugs and so on.

I did. I did the assassination mission with a Jenner with only SRM's. Solo.

I have done a couple of the missions solo with some of the worst possible stock loadouts.

I did the demolition mission in a Commando 1B with very slightly tweaked armor and stock weapons.

I don't really know how I can go lower without purposefully gimping myself. And I don't even consider myself a good player. Average at best.

And it isn't hard. Even a mech dad with a joystick can do it as soon as they realize how the AI works. Or doesn't work, to be more precise.

Heck, the AI does almost as much damage to each other as it does to me. I have done the assassination mission without shooting at the first Locust even ONCE and then checked their health mid-battle - and they've been cored from behind with armor on orange from the front. Then, after killing the main target, I've left that Locust behind (in a 48 kph KGC) and it hasn't even tried to follow me or shoot me in my wide open back.

If you're ok with basically a 100% success rate of missions regardless of player input, then I guess you're ok with the game. For me, it breaks the immersion.

Edited by Jyi, 28 November 2019 - 12:27 PM.

[Koniving]

Here's a fun challenge
Panther 10P
Loaded with 2 MGs, 1 SRM-2.
Allocate the rest in armor.
Run solo.

Set difficulty to the hardest possible and run the warzone.

I took out 5 mediums, a heavy and three lights before I died.
I've found the more enemies there are in the field, the less they shoot and the more likely they'll kill each other when they do shoot.

Next challenge idea I have is Locust or Flea. No weapons, just armor and leave the rest blank or carry the bare minimum to get into the field. Don't use them if you have them.
See how many enemies you can get killed without firing a shot.

[Jyi]

Koniving, on 28 November 2019 - 12:53 PM, said:

Here's a fun challenge
Panther 10P
Loaded with 2 MGs, 1 SRM-2.
Allocate the rest in armor.
Run solo.

Set difficulty to the hardest possible and run the warzone.

I took out 5 mediums, a heavy and three lights before I died.
I've found the more enemies there are in the field, the less they shoot and the more likely they'll kill each other when they do shoot.

Next challenge idea I have is Locust or Flea. No weapons, just armor and leave the rest blank or carry the bare minimum to get into the field. Don't use them if you have them.
See how many enemies you can get killed without firing a shot.

If this isn't enough to demonstrate how broken the AI is, I don't know what is

[Koniving]

Jyi, on 28 November 2019 - 12:27 PM, said:

Then, after killing the main target, I've left that Locust behind (in a 48 kph KGC) and it hasn't even tried to follow me or shoot me in my wide open back.

As I said in the other thread, if you ignore the enemy and move past them at certain angles they will fire in your direction and often intentionally miss.. and just let you go. It's like they're programmed to permit you to retreat.

What's sad is when you're doing it at 16 kph...
and they literally let you walk away.

I don't think they can recognize a retreat as opposed to "I got 99 problems but you ain't one."
I mean it's a good design to not be overly aggressive and permit a retreat in a desperate situation. Many games do this "by the skin of your teeth" encounter thing with health bars that lie and temporary invulnerability that you are not made aware of in order to let you have that hair raising desperate encounter...

(Specific mechanics related to MW5 Mercs is at 3:37 where Bioshock is revealed to have a mechanic where the first shot fired at you by AI will ALWAYS miss. In MW5's case, if you're retreating they'll start intentionally missing you [not always just occasionally]. And 6:29, you're less likely to be attacked when just traveling).

But if the AI can't recognize "Oh my god I'm gonna die I'm gonna die" of a losing 1 vs 3 scenario that somehow you pull through by the skin of your teeth (in my case getting 2 out of 3 with last second assistance getting the light off me so I can finish the Banshee and Catapult)



and I'm just casually walking by like


Now I wonder if the AI packages got neutered when they condensed the game into a demo which might be an earlier build.

Or if it's really in this state. (In which case like any Bethesda game before Fallout 76, welp mods exist for a reason).

Edited by Koniving, 28 November 2019 - 01:36 PM.

[Mumuharra]

Well that sounds not too good.
To be honest, after „escort“ I did not expect much from the AI but I realy hope you guys are kidding.
At least I am glad I joined the refund and can wait very relaxed how this game performes on release.
Maybe they tuned down the AI?

[Koniving]

It is possible as I've said in my last post that the AI didn't get all of its packages in the demo.

It is also possible that it could be a scenario like Aliens Colonial Marines, a large number of AI stupidity issues are fixed by making a spelling correction in one of the game's INI files.

If so, that'd be hilarious but expected given how often PGI has typos in its ads.

Edited by Koniving, 28 November 2019 - 01:40 PM.

[Dee Eight]

MischiefSC, on 27 November 2019 - 09:45 PM, said:

You watched a video of an extremely contrived situation. Play Raid, take mechs comparable to what you'll actually be playing. It's solid.

In all likelihood he can't. He either never pre-ordered, or he cancelled when the store platform changed from Steam to Epic. Thus all he can do now is complain about something he has no experience with and is just regurgitating what others are saying.

[Koniving]

MischiefSC, on 28 November 2019 - 12:51 AM, said:

Focus fire for AI will fall apart in urban settings though or it'll get messy because you'll have enemies trying to path to the focused target to get LOS and ignoring other threats or pathing stupidly. Again, AI can't "see" and with random environments there's no resource cheap way to get them to pick smart firing lanes. If it was a corridor shooter you could place hotspots for ranged mobs to prefer to shoot from but that's really not viable in this sort of game.

This is why the AI director concept is so important in these kinds of games. One AI that can see and direct. In a sense it can act like an HQ or a real-time strategy player, selecting other AIs and directing them.
The individual subordinate "actors" can then make individual decisions while the director orchestrates their overall activity.

I'm actually surprised this wasn't the route they went with, as it is almost a necessity in games where you want your AI to appear more intelligent than it actually is within a procedurally generated environment.

[Koniving]

Alien Isolation AI stripped of their "view cones" for identifying targets and the Directorial AI.

Only the Alien's vision is stripped, and the director AI disabled.


Director AI and how it works in alien Isolation
The relationship in the system is referred to as Macro and Micro AI.

The behavioral tree in the video is also important to note. While there are pretty obvious elements in MW5's behavioral tree, it is quite limited in the demo.


Director AI in Left 4 Dead.


There once was a Sega/SNES game called Flashback, and one of its best and most formidable enemies could do almost every move you can. The reason I bring this up is combined with a director AI, a developer has done something incredible with the concept.
A low budget indie game that has done this with absolutely fantastic AI is called Echo. It's cheap, just try it blind and within an hour you'll know what I'm talking about. It really is that good. Get out the headset, turn down the lights and prepare for an experience. Or check the spoiler.

Spoiler

And what makes this AI fantastic is that it has a Macro/Micro AI system, in which the abilities of the enemy's micro AI are unlocked by the macro AI witnessing you perform them, teaching the micro AI to fight like you do, to play like you do.
Your enemy... is you. And it is absolutely amazing in how well it is done. If you play it, you'll see exactly what I mean. I went into the game with no expectations because it was cheap and it looked interesting and I gotta say after the AI started pulling my own tricks against me I was absolutely beside myself. What's more was how the game showed me (without words) exactly what it was doing, when I pieced the puzzle together and realized what was going on.

You will know the exact moment it copies you. And the exact moment every single enemy will learn that new trick.

I had the issue actually where I couldn't beat it because the enemy learned every trick I could possibly think of, and it became so ruthlessly efficient that I actually got too scared to play because between the enemies copying you in every feasible way [do yourself a favor and don't john-wick it early on or you'll be facing John Wick ******** really quick] and the game's absolutely masterful atmosphere building it can be more intense than any great horror game has ever been.

In fact I just learned something new, I could've dumbed them down by dropping some of my tricks for a while, and use the darkness to do things I don't want it to learn.

Edited by Koniving, 28 November 2019 - 03:30 PM.

[N0MAD]

Dee Eight, on 28 November 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

In all likelihood he can't. He either never pre-ordered, or he cancelled when the store platform changed from Steam to Epic. Thus all he can do now is complain about something he has no experience with and is just regurgitating what others are saying.

No i havent played it but i have watched alot utube vids, i recommend the one done by the Beef.
Also a couple friends have access and have been privately streaming the game for us to watch, i dont have to play to see whats going on its pretty obvious, so no not parroting others for the sake of it.
Alot of potential future players are going to be influenced by what they see on places like utube, again i will bring up and suggest you look at The Beefs video
But listen if youre happy with it power to you, i will wait till release see if by chance the demo and release are any different.

[Jyi]

Dee Eight, on 28 November 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

In all likelihood he can't. He either never pre-ordered, or he cancelled when the store platform changed from Steam to Epic. Thus all he can do now is complain about something he has no experience with and is just regurgitating what others are saying.

To be honest, all I can see you do in all the threads discussing the GLARING problems in MW5 are ad hominem -attacks, trying to invalidate the person instead of the argument.

If you don't like the fact that people have negative and critical opinions of a game you (apparently?) love so much, don't read them or react to them. Just keep enjoying the product.

It's not like we're taking something away from you by asking for the developer to fix issues we feel are a big problem.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 27 November 2019 - 07:53 PM, said:

You want to learn Python and make it work for this or any other game without unacceptable tradeoffs on physics, mob population and graphics then you are a step ahead of any game designer I know.

Pet Peeve:

Just because legions upon legions of dime-a-dozen script kiddie wannabe AI "experts" are learning Python in droves does not mean that is actually the correct way to do AI.