463 replies to this topic

[HavranRyc]

Prototelis, on 08 January 2020 - 10:11 PM, said:

Like how it takes two teams to nascar, one team always wins, nascar works every time.

Like how it takes two teams to nascar, tie, nascar never work.

[n00biwan]

I feel this argument is going round in circles... ... ...

Must be the final proof that nascar itself wins, even arguing about it turned into nascar.

[Lykaon]

Here is the inherent flaw in NASCAR.

It's not really a plan or a strategy it's a reaction. And not a well thought out reaction at that.

NASCAR is not a plan or strategy because it never takes into account your team's composition there is never a thought to IF it's a good idea to NASCAR based on what your team has for capabilities.

We have 3 LRM mechs and 2 Annihilators ....NASCAR!

We have a bunch of Madcat MKIIs and Vapor Eagles ...NASCAR!

One of the above choices was reasonable the other a choice to abandon assets.

Another issue with NASCAR is how it empowers the matchmaker to become the single most potent deciding factor on what team wins.

NASCAR vastly reduces player agency and replaces it with the random choice of a matchmaker.

Matchmaker has built two teams. One team was randomly assigned a better composition for persuit combat. The assault mechs include Madcat MKIIB the medium mechs are clantech the lights are suited for skirmishing and none of the team is particularly slow or built for long ranges poke fights.

The other team is randomly assigned slow assaults,LRM boats and more support oriented scout styled or snipe styled lights.

Both teams without a thought NASCAR but the matchmaker has stacked the deck in favor of one team to be successful at NASCAR. The player's "choice" has less to do with who will win the matchmaker has the greater control on that.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Lykaon, on 09 January 2020 - 09:30 AM, said:

Here is the inherent flaw in NASCAR.

It's not really a plan or a strategy it's a reaction. And not a well thought out reaction at that.

NASCAR is not a plan or strategy because it never takes into account your team's composition there is never a thought to IF it's a good idea to NASCAR based on what your team has for capabilities.

We have 3 LRM mechs and 2 Annihilators ....NASCAR!

We have a bunch of Madcat MKIIs and Vapor Eagles ...NASCAR!

One of the above choices was reasonable the other a choice to abandon assets.

Another issue with NASCAR is how it empowers the matchmaker to become the single most potent deciding factor on what team wins.

NASCAR vastly reduces player agency and replaces it with the random choice of a matchmaker.

Matchmaker has built two teams. One team was randomly assigned a better composition for persuit combat. The assault mechs include Madcat MKIIB the medium mechs are clantech the lights are suited for skirmishing and none of the team is particularly slow or built for long ranges poke fights.

The other team is randomly assigned slow assaults,LRM boats and more support oriented scout styled or snipe styled lights.

Both teams without a thought NASCAR but the matchmaker has stacked the deck in favor of one team to be successful at NASCAR. The player's "choice" has less to do with who will win the matchmaker has the greater control on that.

kinda true, kinda not.

here's the thing:
if you know it's gonna be a nascar-race and you still bring an annihilator and get left behind for the 10th time ..
-maaaybe it's not the others that should change their point of view. just sayin.

and don't get me wrong: I loved my annihilators from the day they were introduced. it's a mech I absolutely bring whenever it fits in fw;
I still don't bring it to a nascar-race on an unknown race-track, with an unknown mission, with unknown teammates.

same goes for the lurmboats; if you willingly bring a lurmboat to an unknown racetrack - and you get dropped -on river-city or solaris
-there is exactly ONE person to blame for that.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 09 January 2020 - 10:48 AM.

[K O Z A K]

n00biwan, on 09 January 2020 - 08:13 AM, said:

Must be the final proof that nascar itself wins, even arguing about it turned into nascar.

ROFL

[Prototelis]

FRAGTAST1C, on 09 January 2020 - 01:10 AM, said:

I don't think it is a viable tactic simply 'cause it works sometimes.

Nascar works every time.

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will lose, nascar works every time.

[Burning2nd]

The only people complain'n are the people who cant move and shoot at the same time...

END OF LINE

[Willard Phule]

Seems to me that "nascar" is the byproduct of trying to outflank the enemy on a map designed to funnel everyone into a circular area.

[Lykaon]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 09 January 2020 - 10:44 AM, said:

kinda true, kinda not.

here's the thing:
if you know it's gonna be a nascar-race and you still bring an annihilator and get left behind for the 10th time ..
-maaaybe it's not the others that should change their point of view. just sayin.

and don't get me wrong: I loved my annihilators from the day they were introduced. it's a mech I absolutely bring whenever it fits in fw;
I still don't bring it to a nascar-race on an unknown race-track, with an unknown mission, with unknown teammates.

same goes for the lurmboats; if you willingly bring a lurmboat to an unknown racetrack - and you get dropped -on river-city or solaris
-there is exactly ONE person to blame for that.

Missing the point about player agency being the thing that has the power to win instead of the matchmaker deciding this for you.

So let's go with this idea. I frequently Pilot a MAD 9M I almost never pilot an Annihilator or anything with LRMs on it. My Marauder is built on MRMs medium lasers decent heat dispacement and a 325 LFE. It is very good at NASCAR it's faster than average it cooler than average and can dish out damage longer than average.

The matchmaker builds my team.

I get me and my Marauder (the last choice I get to make in regards to NASCAR)
and a team of mechs including...well a large number of mechs not suited to NASCAR.

The opposing team gets more NASCAR ready mechs.

I made a choice to come prepared I can not make that choice for the other 11 players on my team. I don't get to choose them the matchmaker makes those choices.

All I can do is not be a losing variable by not driving a poorly suited mech for running around in circles chasing tails.

Now my team can formulate an actual plan that incorperates the team's strengths and minimizes the weaknesses or it can NASCAR and lose.

Most of the time for whatever reason the players reject player agency by formulating a winning plan and instead run off to poorly execute a NASCAR.

NASCAR is not a plan if no thought to the chances of success are factored in. It's a simple reaction with no real thought as to if it is even viable to expect to win while doing it.

Choosing to NASCAR when your team is well composed for it is a plan going NASCAR just because! is not a plan it's reactionary to a match occurring on a particular map.

[Lykaon]

Prototelis, on 10 January 2020 - 01:20 AM, said:

Nascar works every time.

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will lose, nascar works every time.

But what decided what team wins? What has the strongest effect on team victory?

If both teams are executing the exact same manuvers orbiting the exact same terrain feature and shooting as often as a target is presented to be fired upon what is the deciding factor in achieving victory?

it is what team was randomly composed by the matchmaker to be set up to have a higher chance of success performing that very limited set of combat variables a NASCAR provides.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Lykaon, on 10 January 2020 - 02:08 PM, said:

Now my team can formulate an actual plan ..

sorry mate, you lost me right there

[JediPanther]

Willard Phule, on 10 January 2020 - 04:52 AM, said:

Seems to me that "nascar" is the byproduct of trying to outflank the enemy on a map designed to funnel everyone into a circular area.

That is how the maps are designed since eons ago. There was a pc gamer article way back in 2014-16 that gave a lot of detail about it. I use to have that physical issues but lost it years ago. I think it was the one that even gave you a printed limited time code for the pc gamer monkey cockpit item and maybe skin. It was a long time ago before the empire opps wrong forum.

[Lykaon]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 10 January 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

sorry mate, you lost me right there

Yep an until this is a joke no one gets we will see our NASCAR thread of the week.

[Prototelis]

Lykaon, on 10 January 2020 - 02:13 PM, said:

But what decided what team wins? What has the strongest effect on team victory?

It takes two teams to nascar, one team wins, nascar works every time.

The strongest effect in nascar is nascarring better.

[MischiefSC]

Prototelis, on 07 January 2020 - 09:22 PM, said:

That isn't an analogy.

It takes two teams to nascar, one team always win, nascar works 100% of the time.

I'm really not sure if at this point you're just trolling me.

It doesn't matter if it takes two teams to nascar or not. There are two teams.

One team wins, one team loses.

Both Nascar.

Nascar worked for 50% of the teams in that match.

That's how math works. The only way you can say 'nascar works 100% of the time' is if the goal of nascar as a strategy is to lose 50% of the time.

Also, Nascar does not require both teams to nascar to work - one team can nascar, the other team can turn and hold or take mid or whatever. For example on HPG one team can Nascar and the other team can go stand up top and shoot them while they run in circles. Both teams can start a nascar but one team can turn around or hold or go mid.

However, even assuming that nascar required both teams to do it to work, one team wins, one team loses, so nascar has a 50% win rate.

That's literally how statistics works.

[Prototelis]

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will lose, nascar works every time.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

*le sigh*

[Lykaon]

Prototelis, on 11 January 2020 - 09:48 PM, said:

It takes two teams to nascar, one team wins, nascar works every time.

The strongest effect in nascar is nascarring better.

And what determines what team does it better?

The matchmaker not the players.

Matchmaker places the mechs on teams but to the matchmaker a tier 2 player piloting an LRM Kintaro is equal to a tier 2 player in a Vapor Eagle brawler.

Both tier 2 so equal
Both medium mechs of 55 tons so equal

Yet the Vapor eagle is a better option for chasing tails in NASCAR. The team randomly gifted the Vapor Eagle gets a +1 to NASCAR score the team with the Kintaro gets a -1 NASCAR score.

This can even boil down to player skill.

Player one is tier 1 but in the mid 50% of player stats
Player two is also tier 1 but holds a possition in the top 10%

Matchmaker looks at this as two tier 1 players of equivilent values for match building yet we know the team with player two has the edge.

The removal of player agency in determining the win is the player's removal of consideration as to what their randomly assigned by the matchmaker team is actually good at. if it's rubbish at tailchasing mobile combat they NASCAR if the team is awesome at tailchasing they NASCAR. It's not player choice on a whole that leverages the victory it's random variables gifted by the matchmaker.

At least this is how it is in the quickplay queues.

[Prototelis]

Lykaon, on 12 January 2020 - 07:04 PM, said:

And what determines what team does it better?

Irrelevant; It takes two teams to nascar (it isn't nascar unless both teams are attempting to rotate on one another), one team will lose, nascar works every time.

[General Solo]

Lykaon, on 12 January 2020 - 07:04 PM, said:

And what determines what team does it better?

The matchmaker not the players.......................

At least this is how it is in the quickplay queues.

I disagree

It is the players the vast majority of the time. (Unless Skill gap is low)

And what determines what team does it better?

The Players and their skill sets

Good Nascar Players are good at reading the battle via mini map and even in the first 15 seconds can determine with reasonable accuracy the home teams quality. aka positioning and pathing

Edit: If you don't know the way follow the better players, and remember the ways they go on each map and game mode, its how I learnt, not from some forum warriors with a sub one kill death ratio.
Its how I learnt, my guides were the EMP lads, you can't get better teachers.
Though any reliable performers who happen to be online will do.

Thats why the Fafnir or Annie is leading your nascar. True Story

Most maps are played a certain way according to game mode, so you can kinda tell when the teams scattered to the four winds and about to drip feed the enemy easy kills.

Logic is if the team is bad get kills asap
Which means you gotta go fast and leave the bad positioning and pathing (and late start) players to fend for them selves while you get kills asap they are not getting.
After all its a numbers game and an early kill lead can make up for a weak team.

When the mini map tells you the team is good - Support with focus fire and get kills asap. NASCAR if it gives your a kill advantage via quick kills which in today's QP enviroment with todays skillgap is pretty often.

If you can't read the battle that good on your mini map, others can and their W/L ratio which BTW is the only Stat ratio worth padding shows this.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 13 January 2020 - 03:26 AM.