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#121 Bowelhacker

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:36 AM

Genuine question ASH: head armour: any point in having it much more than 10?

#122 justcallme A S H

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:48 AM

View PostBowelhacker, on 21 January 2020 - 01:36 AM, said:

Genuine question ASH: head armour: any point in having it much more than 10?


Depends on the mech.

Anything that requires long burn times - so Large/ERL, cLPL/ERML, Dakka. Always max. Dual Gauss/ HGauss can pop you good enough. I mean even an airstrike can kill you as they will sometimes hit the head. Some mechs also have bad hitboxes like BLRs, Atlas, EBJ, Marauders (all), Anni - plus a number of others.

In lights and other fast movers/low burn time mechs, I run much less.

I rarely aim for a headshot, I still have 150-200 or so - most of those are just taking an opportunity to headshot when it presents. Even at 700m, if I get that extra half second to line one up I'll take it. Also a small element of luck in there as well.

#123 Dr Cara Carcass

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:53 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 21 January 2020 - 01:48 AM, said:


Depends on the mech.

Anything that requires long burn times - so Large/ERL, cLPL/ERML, Dakka. Always max. Dual Gauss/ HGauss can pop you good enough. I mean even an airstrike can kill you as they will sometimes hit the head. Some mechs also have bad hitboxes like BLRs, Atlas, EBJ, Marauders (all), Anni - plus a number of others.

In lights and other fast movers/low burn time mechs, I run much less.

I rarely aim for a headshot, I still have 150-200 or so - most of those are just taking an opportunity to headshot when it presents. Even at 700m, if I get that extra half second to line one up I'll take it. Also a small element of luck in there as well.


I call it a medium amount of luck. Sometimes you hit teh head perfectly and the back of the mech blinks on the damge dolly.
Most of the time if you hit the head and the angle isnt right, somehow its a center hit. And then also the atlas kills that you get from hitting the wrong eye. I can look if is still have that video... 1/3 of a headshot is luck which "which happens" while the bullet is in mid air.

#124 Horseman

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 08:53 AM

View PostBLOODWOLF333, on 20 January 2020 - 05:12 PM, said:

What is that Air Control tower for anyways?
It calls in a dropship over the enemy base that then attacks enemy mechs using its' turrets. It's kinda useless.

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Side note: even though the Ultra AC/20 can do more dps than the normal AC/20 I have been having way more success with the single 20 damage to one location AC/20 instead of the Ultra.
More DPS and way more burst.

View PostPrototelis, on 20 January 2020 - 07:06 PM, said:

Armor hax are certain mechs having ridiculous amounts of armor due to quirks.And then there are people that complain about "aimbots" because they believe a certain level of accuracy impossible because they can't duplicate it.
"HAX, ALL YOUR STREAKS WENT FOR MY LEGS"
There wasn't a streak launcher in sight... Posted Image

View PostBLOODWOLF333, on 20 January 2020 - 08:09 PM, said:

Yeah my Boar's Head(tank) has AC/20(4T ammo), MRM40(3T ammo), and Medium Laserx4, with 17 DHS, 300 STD engine
You can upgrade that STD300 to LFE325. Gets you +4 KPH top speed and either another heat sink or 2t more ammo (if you shave 6 pts of armor somewhere).

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(because I like to play by the original BT rules so I always do my engines in multiples of the mechs weight).
This isn't tabletop, no point in sticking to TT mechanical constraints (hex based movement and MP).

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AS7-RS(C)(fire support) guass(2T ammo), LRM20 x2(3.5T ammo), ER MLaser x4, 16 DHS, and 300 STD engine
Don't ever unironically bring LRMs on an Atlas. Seriously, LRM Atlas is the epitone of a memetic bad build. Posted Image
Stuff it with the same thing you have on the Boar's Head and call that a day.

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GRF-1S(C)(fire support) LRM15x2(2T ammo), ER PPC, 10 DHS, 2 JJ's, 330XL engine.
Try either MRM60 or MRM40+4xML

#125 martian

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 11:34 AM

View PostBLOODWOLF333, on 20 January 2020 - 05:12 PM, said:

What is that Air Control tower for anyways? Every time I've played Incursion I'm in the Wolfhound so I just work on keeping the radar tower fueled because no one else will (have learned to not expect or depend on your teammates to actually work with you or support you in QP).

Just another potentially cool idea devised by PGI, kept by PGI even if it has been repeatedly proven that it does not work.

You pick a fuel cell and drop it at the Air Control Tower. The fuel cell lasts for 2 minutes and every 20-30 seconds a friendly Leopard makes a close air support pass over the enemy base, attacking all enemy 'Mechs present at the base. Sounds good, does it not?

And now the reality: The first thing, that both teams always do, is that they leave their bases to duke it out in the centre of the map. Thus, all Leopard passes over the enemy base achieve essentially one thing: Nothing. Going with the ATC option is just an example of how somebody wasted time and his team is missing firepower of his 'Mech.

If it happens that the selected game mode is Incursion and you can bring a fuel cell, always use fuel cell for Radar or Jamming, never for ATC.

The sad thing is that PGI surely knows about this problem, but it has never done anything with it ...

#126 Brauer

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 11:51 AM

View Postmartian, on 21 January 2020 - 11:34 AM, said:

Just another potentially cool idea devised by PGI, kept by PGI even if it has been repeatedly proven that it does not work.

You pick a fuel cell and drop it at the Air Control Tower. The fuel cell lasts for 2 minutes and every 20-30 seconds a friendly Leopard makes a close air support pass over the enemy base, attacking all enemy 'Mechs present at the base. Sounds good, does it not?

And now the reality: The first thing, that both teams always do, is that they leave their bases to duke it out in the centre of the map. Thus, all Leopard passes over the enemy base achieve essentially one thing: Nothing. Going with the ATC option is just an example of how somebody wasted time and his team is missing firepower of his 'Mech.

If it happens that the selected game mode is Incursion and you can bring a fuel cell, always use fuel cell for Radar or Jamming, never for ATC.

The sad thing is that PGI surely knows about this problem, but it has never done anything with it ...


I mean without the ATC camping in your own base would be a more viable strategy, so in that sense having it (even if it is never worth using right now) is good overall. That doesn't make incursion a good game mode, but at least that did something to force teams out to fight.

FYI I agree that radar and jamming are the ones to take unless you know the other team is just sitting in their base.

Edited by Brauer, 21 January 2020 - 11:53 AM.


#127 martian

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 12:05 PM

View PostBrauer, on 21 January 2020 - 11:51 AM, said:

I mean without the ATC camping in your own base would be a more viable strategy, so in that sense having it (even if it is never worth using right now) is good overall. That doesn't make incursion a good game mode, but at least that did something to force teams out to fight.

FYI I agree that radar and jamming are the ones to take unless you know the other team is just sitting in their base.

My QP personal experience shows that players have never shown even the smallest intent of staying in the base. It is always the same: Run out of the base and start right-hand nascaring (the only exception is the River City map with its Citadel camping). Posted Image

How I see it:
1. Radar is the most useful option because it covers the entire map, if active. Players should always pick this option.

2. Jamming covers only the friendly base and its vicinity. Use Jamming only if the enemy team is within the range of the Jamming Tower.

3. ATC. Go with this option only if both Radar and Jamming towers are destroyed. Or better yet, use your 'Mech to destroy enemy 'Mechs. Posted Image

#128 Prototelis

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:16 PM

4. Don't bother with batteries unless you truly have nothing else to do.

#129 thievingmagpi

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 02:09 PM

I'll grab a battery if I'm in one of the fastest lights (commando, flea, piranha etc) but that's pretty much it. Those mechs are generally fast enough to get to a battery, power up radar or jammer and get back before anything really happens.

But it's never more than one. Time wasted running back to your base should be spent doing damage. TBH I think throwing up a radar is actually quite important because a goof 80% of pugs still haven't clued in to where the enemy is. I find it's much more effective than telling pugs "they're going to be on our left and they're just going to push past us to our base" which then turns into a diarrhea drip of who can kill the base faster (aka good gameplay). It's more of a public service at that point, or the least I can do to keep my sanity I suppose. Tourmaline is especially bad for teams walking past each other.

Edited by thievingmagpi, 21 January 2020 - 02:12 PM.


#130 BLOODWOLF333

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 02:32 PM

Yeah I always just fuel the radar until the team almost has the opfor annihilated then we assault their base and win (when Im in one of the wolfhounds or else I would be out fighting with the team).

I've played a Polar Highlands map with the RS(C) Atlas with LRMs and we won. Just constant LRM barrages on the enemy while they hide on the other side of the hill and got a guass shot off every now and then. But, my Boar's Head is my short ranged Tank and I don't need the RS(C) to be another tank so, made it a heavy fire support build. And the Orions are just lighter weight versions of my Atlases. So why should I never bring LRMs on an Atlas? I know it's an Atlas and should be tanking as the base of fire along with Charlie lance but, I've been in games where everyone in Charlie I guess brought a fire support build and they all want to hide behind rocks and just snipe. If I was in the Boar's Head I would be stuck behind cover with them not doing much since the MRMs only go out to 500 meters and change until the enemy got close enough or the team decided to push forward finally (experienced this on a Frozen city map last night in my tank Orion where I couldnt do anything until the group decided to push forward by which time I was the last mech left).

And the Wolfhound, he's not as agile as the Piranhas and I've never had any luck getting up in a King Crab's face and in-close circle of death'ing him like the Piranhas can do. Not as fast as them or a Locust either so, I want that PPC or an ER LLaser so that I can snipe (both Wolfhounds are scout builds and not meant to brawl) if I dont have enough cover to run behind the enemy, hit them in the back, pop up a UAV, and then run away behind cover again (Polar Highlands as an example). I did change those ER MLasers to MPLasers now but, I still think maybe I should keep the ER MLasers for the purpose that I am using the mech for.

I know to listen to Ash and the other top tier players but, why is 5 MPLasers the best possible in every way build for a Wolfhound? On Polar Highlands I dont want to get that close to a good team near the center of the map where there is no cover. I've tried to run behind them, throw out a UAV, MPulse a few in the back....and then I'm dead. Id rather get behind and snipe them in the back with a PPC while Im behind a rock at a distance to harass them instead. Now Solaris City, 5 MPLaser works and gives me the highest alpha and makes sense. I want to say most of the time when Im playing the Wolfhound we are in big open maps which is why I am wanting a longer ranged weapon. Thats just been my experience so far.

#131 Brauer

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 02:41 PM

View Postmartian, on 21 January 2020 - 12:05 PM, said:

My QP personal experience shows that players have never shown even the smallest intent of staying in the base. It is always the same: Run out of the base and start right-hand nascaring (the only exception is the River City map with its Citadel camping). Posted Image

How I see it:
1. Radar is the most useful option because it covers the entire map, if active. Players should always pick this option.

2. Jamming covers only the friendly base and its vicinity. Use Jamming only if the enemy team is within the range of the Jamming Tower.

3. ATC. Go with this option only if both Radar and Jamming towers are destroyed. Or better yet, use your 'Mech to destroy enemy 'Mechs. Posted Image


Right, I agreed radar and jammer are the most useful. Just keep in mind there are modes outside of QP, like FW, GQ, and comp, where you'd be more likely to see teams hide in their base.

Overall though shooting other mechs is OP, so a light should typically run 1 battery max, otherwise you are a net impediment to your team's success imo. I don't know where you stand in that Martian, I am just adding it here for completeness.

#132 Brauer

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 02:50 PM

View PostBLOODWOLF333, on 21 January 2020 - 02:32 PM, said:

Yeah I always just fuel the radar until the team almost has the opfor annihilated then we assault their base and win (when Im in one of the wolfhounds or else I would be out fighting with the team).

I've played a Polar Highlands map with the RS(C) Atlas with LRMs and we won. Just constant LRM barrages on the enemy while they hide on the other side of the hill and got a guass shot off every now and then. But, my Boar's Head is my short ranged Tank and I don't need the RS(C) to be another tank so, made it a heavy fire support build. And the Orions are just lighter weight versions of my Atlases. So why should I never bring LRMs on an Atlas? I know it's an Atlas and should be tanking as the base of fire along with Charlie lance but, I've been in games where everyone in Charlie I guess brought a fire support build and they all want to hide behind rocks and just snipe. If I was in the Boar's Head I would be stuck behind cover with them not doing much since the MRMs only go out to 500 meters and change until the enemy got close enough or the team decided to push forward finally (experienced this on a Frozen city map last night in my tank Orion where I couldnt do anything until the group decided to push forward by which time I was the last mech left).

And the Wolfhound, he's not as agile as the Piranhas and I've never had any luck getting up in a King Crab's face and in-close circle of death'ing him like the Piranhas can do. Not as fast as them or a Locust either so, I want that PPC or an ER LLaser so that I can snipe (both Wolfhounds are scout builds and not meant to brawl) if I dont have enough cover to run behind the enemy, hit them in the back, pop up a UAV, and then run away behind cover again (Polar Highlands as an example). I did change those ER MLasers to MPLasers now but, I still think maybe I should keep the ER MLasers for the purpose that I am using the mech for.

I know to listen to Ash and the other top tier players but, why is 5 MPLasers the best possible in every way build for a Wolfhound? On Polar Highlands I dont want to get that close to a good team near the center of the map where there is no cover. I've tried to run behind them, throw out a UAV, MPulse a few in the back....and then I'm dead. Id rather get behind and snipe them in the back with a PPC while Im behind a rock at a distance to harass them instead. Now Solaris City, 5 MPLaser works and gives me the highest alpha and makes sense. I want to say most of the time when Im playing the Wolfhound we are in big open maps which is why I am wanting a longer ranged weapon. Thats just been my experience so far.


It looks like you're still in low-tier matches and learning the game, so the critiques of your builds and ideas are trying to guide you to more optimal mechs and strats. What you are doing may kind of work where you're at, but it is far from optimal.

There are much better lrm boats than the atlas (AWS-8R, snv-a to name a couple). Generally for an lrm boat you want lots of tubes and if possible applicable quirks. IMO the atlas is best as a brawler, so it's just wasted on lrms.

The WLF is generally best as a poker and isn't exactly a true brawler. So mpl, ml, or erml build all work well. You want to keep poking the enemy constantly from different spots from a reasonably good range with whichever of those three medium laser types you want. MPLs are overall best imo, but the other two are also ok in certain situations, though worse as damage dealers. Generally speaking you want all your weapons to have roughly the same optimal range, that's why one ERLL/LL or PPC is discouraged on that build. If all your weapons synergize well it will be easier to play and you can better identify the exact engagements you want to get into and how to approach them (long/medium/short range, full brawl/poptarts/peek and poke).

MPLs are great on the wolfhound because IS MPLs are an excellent weapon that allow concentrated damage to one component relatively easily. You can get good dps, speed, and alpha in a wlf with 5mpls and just peek and poke stuff to death.

#133 BLOODWOLF333

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 07:04 PM

Ok after getting killed again in that Atlas AS7-RS(C) on Solaris City a fire support atlas is stupid....scrapping the long range ideas. Wolfhounds are going back to MPLasers in each slot, Grinner will be ECM+stealth+TC(1T), WLF-1(C) will be BAP+TC(1T) and if I can get more MRMs on the mech than LRMs then that is what Im going with. And will prob sell the gauss rifles too they dont have enough punch for the weight

EDIT: Oh! And I need to know how is movement heat calculated in MWO? I've been adding +2(table top) to my alpha heat calculations to take running into account but, idk if that is how MWO actually does it.

EDIT#2: Nevermind https://mwomercs.com...0089-breakdown/

Edited by BLOODWOLF333, 21 January 2020 - 07:09 PM.


#134 Brauer

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 07:36 PM

I'd recommend not using stealth on that grinner. Ecm is nice enough, but the me h is going to be super hot with stealth. Overall stealth is a gimmick and it works best on things like the flea and commando imo.

#135 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 08:06 PM

View PostBLOODWOLF333, on 21 January 2020 - 07:04 PM, said:

Ok after getting killed again in that Atlas AS7-RS(C) on Solaris City a fire support atlas is stupid....scrapping the long range ideas. Wolfhounds are going back to MPLasers in each slot, Grinner will be ECM+stealth+TC(1T), WLF-1(C) will be BAP+TC(1T) and if I can get more MRMs on the mech than LRMs then that is what Im going with. And will prob sell the gauss rifles too they dont have enough punch for the weight



If you're doing MPLs for the Grinner, just use ECM and not stealth. The MPLs will generate a lot of heat and with stealth, you won't be dissipating it fast enough to keep firing, even if you use coolshots. Don't worry about bringing BAP and TC on light mechs unless you've specialized your loadouts to accommodate them 'cause you're short on tonnage as is. Bring more DHS or up the armour or engine size instead.

There are different kinds of Light mechs. Some, like the Piranhas, can be knife-fighters, i.e., fighting in ranges of 100m or under. Some, like the Wolfound, are skirmishers i.e., they rely on hit-'n-run tactics from 250m and outside. Don't try building the Wolfhound as a knife-fighter.

LRMs are good in specific situations. In QP, since you can't change mechs, you'll be hampered if a wrong map gets chosen. If you really want to play LRMs, do it on mechs that can do them well, like the Awesome, Stalker, Mad Dog, Highander IIC-B, Supernova, etc.,

Don't bring LRMs on Atlas 'cause it'll be a big waste. For e.g., there are Stalkers that have a lot of missile hardpoints that can boat LRM 60 or more. Frankly, you'll be better bringing MRM 100 (2x 30 + 1x 40) or 120 (4x 30 or 3x 40) on them but LRMs are viable on specific maps. Similarly, the Atlas is a beast of a brawler when used properly. A big autocannon and MRMs or SRMs will do the trick rather than trying to make it a fire-support mech with LRMs.

On the otherhand, the Supernova can boat 48 ATMs or LRM 80 easily with enough cooling to bear the heat. There's a 5-missile hardpoint Warhammer IIC than can bring 4 LRM20 and an LRM 15 or a very sustainable Nova Cat than can bring 6x LRM15s. But again, these builds are situational.

One build on the HGN-IIC-B will be able to boat LRM 80 + UAC10. This does decently well on most open maps like Alpine, Rubellite, Grim Plexus, Tourmaline, Caustic Valley, etc., and the LRM map and can lead the push as long as you remain outside the minimum range. I used that build for a bit and it was pretty good but I just fell in love with the Keeper (2x LBx20 + 4 SRM6+A) and use predominantly that. You can change the LRM Highlander IIC-B with ATMs and some lasers and it'll still do well. Although, the Highlander IIC-A with HSL +1 on the PPC can do 4x ERPPC pretty well, albeit not as well as the ERPPC quirked mechs like Warhammer Bludgeon and Warhawk, but it does allow you to fire 3 PPC without incurring ghost heat. This mech, despite the lopsided hardpoints, still performs well when you're trying to engage in long-range battles and have a good team with you.

Also, don't sell anything unless you really need the C-bills.

#136 Dee Eight

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 10:07 PM

View Postmartian, on 21 January 2020 - 11:34 AM, said:

And now the reality: The first thing, that both teams always do, is that they leave their bases to duke it out in the centre of the map. Thus, all Leopard passes over the enemy base achieve essentially one thing: Nothing. Going with the ATC option is just an example of how somebody wasted time and his team is missing firepower of his 'Mech.


Its meant to counter teams that would use camping the base as the primary tactic. Its most useful to kill disconnects and afk's, especially during faction matches when you get multiple mech drops from folks who disco instead of playing.

#137 martian

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 11:25 PM

View Postthievingmagpi, on 21 January 2020 - 02:09 PM, said:

I'll grab a battery if I'm in one of the fastest lights (commando, flea, piranha etc) but that's pretty much it. Those mechs are generally fast enough to get to a battery, power up radar or jammer and get back before anything really happens.

I have always wanted to ask: How can Flea or Locust grab a fuel cell?

It is easy with 'Mechs like Spider, Hankyu or Koshi that either have hand actuators or can equip them. But I guess that UrbanMech would have a problem with picking up that battery ... Posted Image

View Postthievingmagpi, on 21 January 2020 - 02:09 PM, said:

But it's never more than one. Time wasted running back to your base should be spent doing damage.

Perhaps the only map where I go for the second fuel cell is the River City. That map is quite small and all refuelling points are quite close. So when I see that nothing is going on and both teams are camping, sometimes I venture for the second battery.

View Postthievingmagpi, on 21 January 2020 - 02:09 PM, said:

TBH I think throwing up a radar is actually quite important because a goof 80% of pugs still haven't clued in to where the enemy is. I find it's much more effective than telling pugs "they're going to be on our left and they're just going to push past us to our base" which then turns into a diarrhea drip of who can kill the base faster (aka good gameplay). It's more of a public service at that point, or the least I can do to keep my sanity I suppose. Tourmaline is especially bad for teams walking past each other.

I am not sure how much useful is Radar for pugs. I mean, I do not think that many of them use the Battlegrid, so they are limited to that small minimap anyway. So even if Radar tower detects enemy 'Mechs and they are outside the minimap, pugs won't be wiser.

#138 martian

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 11:31 PM

View PostDee Eight, on 21 January 2020 - 10:07 PM, said:

Its meant to counter teams that would use camping the base as the primary tactic. Its most useful to kill disconnects and afk's, especially during faction matches when you get multiple mech drops from folks who disco instead of playing.

As I said, I have never observed in QP any team attempt of camping in the base.

And in higher tiers there are not too many AFKs and DCs anyway - not that many to warrant spending fuel cell on ATC just in case that somebody in the enemy team is AFK. I would say that it is better to power Radar tower as it offers tangible battlefield-wide and team-wide benefits.

#139 Brauer

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Posted 22 January 2020 - 04:14 AM

View Postmartian, on 21 January 2020 - 11:31 PM, said:

As I said, I have never observed in QP any team attempt of camping in the base.

And in higher tiers there are not too many AFKs and DCs anyway - not that many to warrant spending fuel cell on ATC just in case that somebody in the enemy team is AFK. I would say that it is better to power Radar tower as it offers tangible battlefield-wide and team-wide benefits.


There are lots of afks and DCs in tier 1.

Also, again keep in mind that teams outside of QP are more likely to hide in their base. It happens with some frequency in FW for example.

#140 Ssamout

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Posted 22 January 2020 - 05:00 AM

View Postmartian, on 21 January 2020 - 11:25 PM, said:

I have always wanted to ask: How can Flea or Locust grab a fuel cell?

It is easy with 'Mechs like Spider, Hankyu or Koshi that either have hand actuators or can equip them. But I guess that UrbanMech would have a problem with picking up that battery ...

Thats easy and no need for hands. Just use electromagnets, its quicker like that.. :)





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