Khobai, on 21 January 2020 - 05:25 PM, said:
Ash knows what I said was factually correct. Hes just incapable of admitting when hes wrong.
So what he does is resort to name calling, stat shaming, and strawman arguments to try and save face and deflect people from the original argument. He does this every single time he loses an argument to me.
My post wasn't directed at the argument that you and Ash were having, it was specifically referencing the issue with Dee's post.
Since you want to bring me into this though, let's take a closer look at your argument.
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When you try to win an argument by arguing a completely different and unrelated point its called a strawman argument; they are fallacious arguments that have no relevance.
To be clear on this, "A
straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent"
You original argument was
Khobai, on 16 January 2020 - 09:35 AM, said:
jarls doesnt separate stats for solo and group queue. that fact alone taints a lot of the data.
if you play with good players in group queue of course your stats will be better than if you play with bad players in solo queue.
The implication being that you can't tell how good a player is based on their stats because they could have farmed them up using group queue.
In response, this is Ash's original position:
justcallme A S H, on 17 January 2020 - 04:02 PM, said:
Plus it is EASY to discern when GroupQ vs Solo stat players in Jarls. Even when people cross over between the two.
Arguing that stats are still useful because it's possible to distinguish which players are primarily playing group or solo queue, even when there is a crossover between the two.
This is a straw man of his position
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Okay so why dont you definitively break down your stats for us and tell us how many games are solo games and how many games are group games. And what type of game each of your stats came from? Oh you cant? Because youre !@#$ing wrong as usual.
No one has argued that individual games can be extracted out of the stats, just that you can tell the difference between group and solo players and that stats are still useful for evaluating player skill.
You are literally taking a straw man of original position and then accusing Ash of using straw man arguments. Can you see the hypocrisy here?
Everyone agrees that stats would be more accurate and better if group and solo stats were separated. However, to the original argument that this makes stats useless in evaluating player skill because it's impossible to distinguish between the two, I disagree for the following reasons.
1) Group stats do tend to have distinct indicators, a good group inflates WLR, usually KDR, and deflates AMS. If the group is bad, it's not going to inflate any stats so it's mostly irrelevant for this discussion. Solo matches tend to inflate AMS at the cost of deflating WLR.
1b) Based on these indicators players that play a lot of group matches are usually pretty easy to distinguish from those that mostly play solo. Someone with a WLR
Examples
2) Group matches are a small percentage of all matches. I don't have time to dig it up right now, but even in their prime group matches were a small percentage of total matches. The number of those groups who were good enough to influence stats, even smaller.
2b) Even if group matches are able to significantly skew stats, they only affect a small number of players
Consequently, the combination of the above two means that while some small percentage of players may have been able to indistinguishably inflate their stats, for the vast majority of matches and players it's possible to get a rough estimate of that player's skill compared to another player. The bigger the gap, the more accurate this guess is likely to be.
A predictor doesn't need to be perfect to be useful. We can't perfectly predict the weather and yet the forecast is still a very useful tool for planning. Jarl's list is just this, a useful, generally accurate, predictor of player performance and often a decent predictor of player game knowledge and understanding.
Khobai, on 19 January 2020 - 12:26 PM, said:
And yes good players will have better stats in the long run. I am not refuting that. My point was simply that jarl's list has limitations and as such should not be used as the sole means of determining if a player is good or not. And your stats certainly should not determine the validity of your opinion or justify behavior like statshaming.
In absence of other evidence, stats are the best and most empirical tool for evaluating how good a player is. I don't have time to personally vet every player who thinks they know how to play the game to determine if they are actually good or not. If they're offering solid evidence, I'll evaluate that on its merit, but if they are claiming to be a knowledgeable source I'm going to check their stats and if they are bad I am going to assume that player doesn't know what they are talking about unless they can provide evidence to the contrary.
Khobai, on 19 January 2020 - 04:55 AM, said:
Also the concept of players having multiple accounts still seems to elude you; which only further proves how ignorant you are. I havent played on this account in 3 years that doesnt mean I dont play the game on a different account.
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it amazes me too. especially when I tell people i havent played on that account for 3 years and use an alt account.
But it doesnt suite people like Ash to believe I play on an alt account. Because then they couldnt claim I dont play the game anymore. Because that is one of the cornerstones of his fallacious arguments.
There's an easy solution to this problem. Tell us what your alt is. You could easily discredit this argument if you wanted to. Refusing to disclose your alt just makes it look like you have something to hide.
If you're unwilling to do this (for whatever reason) that's fine, but stop complaining that people don't believe you about something you could easily prove