80 replies to this topic

[Brauer]

Black Caiman, on 18 March 2020 - 04:10 AM, said:

Im definitely not refuting their are fewer good players because their are just fewer players altogether. If their used to be 50,000 players and lets say 1,000 really good ones, well now their are 15,000 total players so their are probably only about 300 really good ones hanging around. Its also probably true that players that were not good have remained well...not so good. I know Ive seen the same players stay at the same levels for years, and Im sure you've seen even more of that then I have. That said their have been plenty of new players that have come into the game in the last 2 1/2 years even with the overall declining numbers, and they idea that none of them are any good to fill some of those gaps seems almost impossible. Though I guess anything is possible.

I think you two are just arguing past each other. I don't think Ash would dispute that some players who have joined in the last 2-3 years have replaced some amount of the skilled players that have left, I think the real point is that overall the percentage of players left who play at a high level has been going down. We have lost not only absolute numbers of strong players, but the portion of the playerbase that can play at a high level has dropped.

Edited by Brauer, 18 March 2020 - 05:38 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Black Caiman, on 18 March 2020 - 04:10 AM, said:

Im definitely not refuting their are fewer good players because their are just fewer players altogether. If their used to be 50,000 players and lets say 1,000 really good ones, well now their are 15,000 total players so their are probably only about 300 really good ones hanging around. Its also probably true that players that were not good have remained well...not so good. I know Ive seen the same players stay at the same levels for years, and Im sure you've seen even more of that then I have. That said their have been plenty of new players that have come into the game in the last 2 1/2 years even with the overall declining numbers, and they idea that none of them are any good to fill some of those gaps seems almost impossible. Though I guess anything is possible.

Less than 300.

It isn't a simple case of application of the same percentage, not by a long shot.

Why? Top players want a challenge / good gameplay. There is no challenge and totally sub-par gameplay so many of them give up before the lower skill ones. The lower ones remember have happily mashed out 10,000 games. They will mash out another 10,000.

If there might well be new players in 2.5 years coming in that play the game to a average or above average level. Are any of them playing at the top level? Maybe a handful yeah, sure. However there have been more leave than appear/improve/appear at the top level - thats how high the attrition rate is. And with less overall skill the improvement ceiling for these new players is never going to be what it was because if the best stopped playing a few years back - you never then play the best - you then never can improve past a certain ceiling.

[ShiverMeRivets]

Tarl Cabot, on 17 March 2020 - 08:05 PM, said:

This and the OP does not mention which side they were on. Reverse Nascar when your assaults are on the far left can work because the assaults are not trying to catchup/being left behind. One side is nascaring will have their lights/fast med peak through first, then usually they are vaporize, This is usually due to those players NOT expecting the reverse-nascar, especially where the other team has setup a firing line, then said firing line NOT run after first contact.

Charlie - Bravo - Alpha - usually tis C - B - A
vvvv..................................................v ........................... ^
.......... ........................................... v........................... ^
^^^^............................................... >>> C------> B--->A
Charlie - Bravo - Alpha - but it is usually like this..

This.

If you rotate to the side where your assaults are in front, not only that you do not leave them behind - you also bring the most firepower to the front of the line. If you rotate away from your assaults, your units spread out, the weakest firepower is in front, and the assaults are too busy running away from the enemy to contribute any meaningful damage before the die through the back.

Regular stupid-side nascar works because the other team does it too, therefore the winner will be a team that nascared. The loser nascared, but no one remember the loses.

[Black Caiman]

justcallme A S H, on 18 March 2020 - 06:09 AM, said:

Less than 300.

It isn't a simple case of application of the same percentage, not by a long shot.

Why? Top players want a challenge / good gameplay. There is no challenge and totally sub-par gameplay so many of them give up before the lower skill ones. The lower ones remember have happily mashed out 10,000 games. They will mash out another 10,000.

If there might well be new players in 2.5 years coming in that play the game to a average or above average level. Are any of them playing at the top level? Maybe a handful yeah, sure. However there have been more leave than appear/improve/appear at the top level - thats how high the attrition rate is. And with less overall skill the improvement ceiling for these new players is never going to be what it was because if the best stopped playing a few years back - you never then play the best - you then never can improve past a certain ceiling.

I can see that. Though it seems like as long as they could challenge each other they would have the competitive atmosphere they were desiring, but even that could get stale since the game itself got stale. You are absolutely right that you cant continue to cultivate your skill level unless you not only play against the best, but also with the best. Especially with the death of group queue finding group matches against high quality opponents is tough even in faction play. Often even when you do in faction play its a one sided affair where the talent is disproportionally on one team. Ive often wondered why at this stage of the game their are so many units. It seems like the remaining player base should consolidate into new units, which would possibly allow group queue to be revived, but also help with faction play. Its odd to drop and see 24 people that either have all different tags or no tag at all.

[Brauer]

Black Caiman, on 18 March 2020 - 08:28 AM, said:

I can see that. Though it seems like as long as they could challenge each other they would have the competitive atmosphere they were desiring, but even that could get stale since the game itself got stale. You are absolutely right that you cant continue to cultivate your skill level unless you not only play against the best, but also with the best. Especially with the death of group queue finding group matches against high quality opponents is tough even in faction play. Often even when you do in faction play its a one sided affair where the talent is disproportionally on one team. Ive often wondered why at this stage of the game their are so many units. It seems like the remaining player base should consolidate into new units, which would possibly allow group queue to be revived, but also help with faction play. Its odd to drop and see 24 people that either have all different tags or no tag at all.

The only place you really see groups of top players playing each other with any consistency now is comp, and comp has seen a lot of players leave over the last few years. There's still a comp scene, and there are still a lot of really strong teams, but you're only talking a few high level teams, and only a few teams at the absolute top level. It's definitely the best way to push yourself in the game now, but the higher you go the harder it is to find similar opposition.

[Peace2U]

I see that some side discussion has developed about player skill, and I find it very interesting.
So has the loss of both player numbers and high skill been a catalyst that has resulted in most players not thinking strategically and automatically moving counterclockwise on every map?
Is this the reason that Anti Nascar has resulted in a higher percentage of wins (assuming the entire team cooperates and moves clockwise placing the heavy guns at the front)?
Still trying to understand why it works so well???
Peace

[Tarl Cabot]

Besides what I have posted, generally there needs to be some sort of communication on the side that turns it into reverse. Communication, provided the team actually works together is a huge multiplier, whereas the braindead nascar side is simply going through the paces without an initial teamwork, then slams into the unexpected. And if the unexpected does not melt away, and the braindead side does (because they are not really working together), then it is the flipside of what generally happens to the other side when they braindead nascar.

[Peace2U]

So if what I'm hearing is correct, Nascar is an impulsive behavior, and therefore predictable.
Whereas Clockwise rotation (or rotation behind assaults for example) breaks the pattern and provides for greater opportunity to win?
Seems logical, but let's not forget that a single skilled player can out perform several average players and upset the balance.

[General Solo]

No you are not hearing guid!

Do what works, wot eva works, Don't be a one trick pony

Edit: Two teams NASCAR one team wins, opps I forgot.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 20 March 2020 - 01:09 AM.

[VonBruinwald]

Peace2U, on 16 March 2020 - 10:04 PM, said:

Any Theories On Why Anti Nascar Is So Effective?

It's not.

Nascar is the more effective tactic in general, which is why it is played more often and in more situations. It is the default tactic and people do to it with no communication or coordination.

Anti-Nascar requires teamwork and coordination and is specifically designed to counter the Nascar. A counter-tactic should always be more effective than the tactic it's countering, otherwise what's the point. Throw in Teamwork OP and there's your answer.

Now the next question is what counters the Anti-Nascar that counters the Nascar.

OZHomerOZ, on 20 March 2020 - 01:08 AM, said:

Edit: Two teams NASCAR one team wins, opps I forgot.

Lol. Couldn't resist could you.

Anti-Nascar doesn't exist. Remember; it takes two teams to Nascar...

[Sniper09121986]

VonBruinwald, on 20 March 2020 - 06:11 AM, said:

Now the next question is what counters the Anti-Nascar that counters the Nascar.

Formula 1 with Fleas and Prihannas?

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

[Peace2U]

So if I understand your perspective, VB, Nascar is an automatic, almost impulsive behavior and therefore does not require coordination. So it is more beneficial to rotate counter clockwise as fast as you can to try and catch the slow movers on the opposing team and terminate them giving the faster team the advantage early in the match.
I have seen that happen many times, and understand the desire to pick the low hanging fruit (and by that, I mean the assaults).
However, as valid an argument as this is, it does not address why the Anti Nascar moving team seems to disrupt the Nascar moving team and win's, what seems an unfair amount of times.
That is the question I posed. I'm not specifying that one is better than the other, but questioning why Anti Nascar movement seems so disruptive to the Nascarring team.
Peace

[OmniFail]

The posters in this thread debate a lot on this topic. But neither side has provided any evidence to support their claims. Without clear and reputable evidance all claims are hyperbole.

Edited by OmniFail, 20 March 2020 - 06:07 PM.

[General Solo]

Jarls List
There's my evidence
Who wins more the nascar guy or anti nascar guy

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Peace2U, on 20 March 2020 - 04:48 PM, said:

So if I understand your perspective, VB, Nascar is an automatic, almost impulsive behavior and therefore does not require coordination. So it is more beneficial to rotate counter clockwise as fast as you can to try and catch the slow movers on the opposing team and terminate them giving the faster team the advantage early in the match.
I have seen that happen many times, and understand the desire to pick the low hanging fruit (and by that, I mean the assaults).
However, as valid an argument as this is, it does not address why the Anti Nascar moving team seems to disrupt the Nascar moving team and win's, what seems an unfair amount of times.
That is the question I posed. I'm not specifying that one is better than the other, but questioning why Anti Nascar movement seems so disruptive to the Nascarring team.
Peace

it depends on SO many things that there is no real answer; you see that, right?
-first off: map, mode & distribution of lances (that is assault on the left or the right)
-then the usual stuff: pilots, mechs, eventually comms. the weather, average level of alcohol (does anybody play this sober nowadays for more than say 3 matches?) ..

imHo, there really is NO reason to even think about it; the only constant question should be "does any side have significantly more potatoes than the other?" and even that ..
in the end, does it matter?
wether yo do 3 KMDDs, 5, 7, or zero - you still run around in a circle 24/7 and it just gets too dull.


man, I love the mechs in this game - but I miss content.

[FRAGTAST1C]

OZHomerOZ, on 21 March 2020 - 02:30 AM, said:

Jarls List
There's my evidence
Who wins more the nascar guy or anti nascar guy

It's the Skill Veagle... clearly

[General Solo]

Skill cat actually

[Xmith]

The match is lost once a teammate complains about nascar.

[General Solo]

Just mute them and pretend it never happened.
In general guys who complain without giving an alternative approach maybe without realising it
Sow seeds of confusion among the ranks. Don't do this, don't do that, WHAT CAN I DO THEN!