228 replies to this topic

[ghost1e]

Tesunie, on 31 March 2020 - 03:58 PM, said:

Playing "less than fully optimized mechs and builds" is griefing, because... whatever.

The definition of griefing in the MWO CoC includes this:
"Willfully or repeatedly self-destructing one’s ‘Mech, either by overheating, going out-of-bounds, or committing some other form of suicide or intending to cause abnormally early death."

Well, playing a non-optimized build technically makes you die earlier... And you intentionally used that build.

[ghost1e]

VonBruinwald, on 01 April 2020 - 06:13 AM, said:

The Kodiak screams, the cSPL tears, the cXL salt mines.... I'm not picking on clanners, although they have had the biggest tech crutches over the years, rather it's the players who lean on these crutches and cry when their meta gets brought in line. Their argument is often "buff the under-performers, but not so much they exceed my meta build".

You mean the players that are still finding new metas whenever there are changes made?

[VonBruinwald]

TheUltimateGhost, on 01 April 2020 - 06:18 AM, said:

You mean the players that are still finding new metas whenever there are changes made?

They don't find new metas though, they wait for the good players to find the builds and copy them.

[Tesunie]

TheUltimateGhost, on 01 April 2020 - 06:14 AM, said:

The definition of griefing in the MWO CoC includes this:

I'm saying griefing as in, the actual definition (which includes rarely provable intent behind the action). Not necessarily what PGI defines as grieifing within their rules (because they need to define what it is so it can be enforced fairly). As such, PGI can never say "intentionally withholding locks with the intent/purpose of hindering teammates using lock on weapons" as there isn't a real way to prove it. If they tried, any time someone didn't get a lock or broke it could lead to punishment for griefing, even if there was no ill intent...

VonBruinwald, on 01 April 2020 - 06:36 AM, said:

They don't find new metas though, they wait for the good players to find the builds and copy them.

All too often, that does seem to be the case most times... Then those meta "good" builds trickle down the player base over time until the meta changes again.

I mean, look at the Champion mechs used for trials as a hint. How many 5-6 (ER)M(P)L builds are there, because laser vomit was the meta at the time of it's creation (sometimes by the community). Now? Those builds are a lot less viable than they once where...

[Sniper09121986]

VonBruinwald, on 01 April 2020 - 06:13 AM, said:

The Kodiak screams, the cSPL tears, the cXL salt mines.... I'm not picking on clanners, although

Although yes, you are. PGI should have introduced the Clans along with corresponding 3060 Inner Sphere tech, so that they could balance apples against apples. Instead they have chosen to balance apples against oranges, so when the other side got apples of its own, they DID NOT roll back previous adjustments or rebalance the whole thing with new additions in mind. And to add insult to injury for the faction they have never wanted in the game anyway (by their own admission) they have chosen to prolong the nerfening for long years and added absolutely out-of-left-field measures like reducing component health of heatsinks. I have yet to see the same treatment visited upon the proverbial Davion loyalists demanding the same plot armour that their book heroes had (cough - quirks - cough).

TheUltimateGhost, on 01 April 2020 - 06:14 AM, said:

The definition of griefing in the MWO CoC includes this:
"Willfully or repeatedly self-destructing one’s ‘Mech, either by overheating, going out-of-bounds, or committing some other form of suicide or intending to cause abnormally early death."

Well, playing a non-optimized build technically makes you die earlier... And you intentionally used that build.

By that logic each player convicted for using a not-approved build should be banned from the game for violation of CoC. Let me know how that goes.

Or actually... Why not simply remove mechlab? Why not use only existing builds - maybe even canon builds? I mean if all is equally good then nothing is outstandingly bad, right? Right?







Right?

[MTier Slayed Up]

This thread still isn't dead despite it being a duplicate from a cry baby?

Listen - Take your lurms or whatever dumb dork build you want, it isn't griefing, you just look like a tool when you do it.

[Sniper09121986]

Michelle Branch, on 01 April 2020 - 08:08 AM, said:

This thread still isn't dead despite it being a duplicate from a cry baby?

Listen - Take your lurms or whatever dumb dork build you want, it isn't griefing, you just look like a tool when you do it.

Are you concerned with how people think of you in a video game? Do you want to talk about that?

[MTier Slayed Up]

I'm Michelle Branch, the worlds greatest singer, you pleb. What makes you think I'd even acknowledge your presence?

Be gone, peasant, you're not even fit to lick my heel.

[VonBruinwald]

Sniper09121986, on 01 April 2020 - 07:50 AM, said:

PGI should have introduced the Clans along with corresponding 3060 Inner Sphere tech, so that they could balance apples against apples. Instead they have chosen to balance apples against oranges, so when the other side got apples of its own, they DID NOT roll back previous adjustments or rebalance the whole thing with new additions in mind. And to add insult to injury for the faction they have never wanted in the game anyway (by their own admission) they have chosen to prolong the nerfening for long years and added absolutely out-of-left-field measures like reducing component health of heatsinks

Clans should never have been, the very nature of the game makes them OP unless you mix-tech. Nerfing them down after their introduction was an absolute necessary. The 3060 tech only serves to close the gap.

The component nerf is one of those ones I think actually works. It makes sense and actually balances out the total component health (to an extent) in comparable mechs.

Sniper09121986, on 01 April 2020 - 07:50 AM, said:

I have yet to see the same treatment visited upon the proverbial Davion loyalists demanding the same plot armour that their book heroes had (cough - quirks - cough).

I've always been of the mindset, balance the tech and use the quirks for flavour. It's ironic that the quirks are what actually prevents this happening, whenever there's an attempt to nerf one sides tech there's always the counterargument that "x mech with specific quirk is superior" with no view towards nerfing those OP quirks in later passes.

Michelle Branch, on 01 April 2020 - 08:56 AM, said:

I'm Michelle Branch, the worlds greatest singer, you pleb. What makes you think I'd even acknowledge your presence?

"There's only one Tina Turner...No one can hit a note like Tina Turner..."

[Zirconium Kaze]

Vellron2005, on 30 March 2020 - 11:42 PM, said:

So, if you guys remember, LRMs used to get people to say thinks that basically boil down to "it's not fair that people get to sit in cover and hit things far away without getting hit back"

So LRMs got nerfed into the ground and turned into something.. less...

But how was that different from the extreme long-range spam we have now?

How is hitting people from behind your spawn area fair?

How is hitting people from 1000+ range and taking a torso in a few seconds, and not getting any return fire (except from a likewise snipe-spammer) fair?

If you're a LRM user, or even an ATM user, you can't lock, can't target, and usually, even if you dumb fire, can't hit a sniper that's cutting you in half from 1000+ meters away. Not to mention other weapons that aren't extreme range.

So the game has degenerated into a glorified snipe-off..

How is that fair? How is that even fun?

I think that if PGI has ANY intention of keeping this game alive and kicking, they HAVE TO nerf this absurd snipe spam.

Exactly how they do it, I'm not gonna suggest. But this is getting ridiculous.

If only somebody at PGI actually cared about this game anymore..

The worst thing any developer can ever do to destroy the longevity of their game, ever, is to cater to losers. And this isn't a stab at you, it's a fact. There are plenty of games where developers "balance" things around the cries of others as precedence. You could just adapt or take a break.

Edited by Zirconium Kaze, 01 April 2020 - 11:32 AM.

[Sniper09121986]

Michelle Branch, on 01 April 2020 - 08:56 AM, said:

I'm Michelle Branch, the worlds greatest singer, you pleb. What makes you think I'd even acknowledge your presence?

Be gone, peasant, you're not even fit to lick my heel.

Hear me after a bottle or two and know despair.

VonBruinwald, on 01 April 2020 - 09:09 AM, said:

Clans should never have been, the very nature of the game makes them OP unless you mix-tech. Nerfing them down after their introduction was an absolute necessary. The 3060 tech only serves to close the gap.

The component nerf is one of those ones I think actually works. It makes sense and actually balances out the total component health (to an extent) in comparable mechs.

In TT the Clan techbase is balanced by rules of engagement, BV and indeed mixed tech. The Operation Revival period was indeed imbalanced, but by the current timeline (3150) it more or less evens out, particularly thanks to mixed tech (Clans even use some IS tech). That is where MWO should have started if there was any hope to balance things out, but as it is there has been little hope, less thought and still less effort to do so. And do not even get me started on survivability, what with all this quirk armour and health. Sometimes I think I am literally better off with no armour at all in order to fit more weapons at least. People can say what they want about glass cannons and asymmetrical balance, but the state of Clan assaults that are not walking turrets is beyond the pale.

[Tesunie]

Sniper09121986, on 01 April 2020 - 11:30 AM, said:

That is where MWO should have started...

I might want to mention that MWO was originally suppose to stay within the Succession war era, but later was pushed (by IGP) to release the clans into the game.

So there should be that to consider within this. MWO didn't start with higher levels of tech, because it wasn't actually intended to go that high in tech. (Then again, MWO was suppose to be MW5, but they couldn't find a backer willing to try a single player game, so they had to make MWO instead...)

[Aeromaxout]

OK, here is how to PROPERLY LRM.


Not intending to self promote... just had a relevant video and though "Show don't tell" applied.

[Ignatius Audene]

I exepcted an ams dakka corsair in the vid.

[Vellron2005]

OK, so I see many have condiered this thread as just another "LRM hater" thread.. Haters gonna hate I guess..

But guess what guys.. I didn't create this thread so you could **** your lurmer hate all over it.. that's not the point..

Also, it's not the point to teach people about LRMs and why or why not to use them...

Jeez, can you get past this already, it's getting old?

The WHY I created this thread is because of SNIPERS - namely, those snipers that camp waaaaay back, behind their spawns (you know the people I'm talking about), and how they exploit the OP nature of some Long-range weapons and builds to devolve the game to basically "the side that doesn't use AC2 / ERLL spam looses".

**** LRMs right now. Forget them. Imagine you're a classic medium range brawler, using direct fire weapons like MRMs, ERML, or even a nice lurm-hating SRM bomber.. And if you peek over the wrong ridge, you lose a torso from an enemy you can't see, and sure as hell can't reach. Yes, Snipers expose, but are they really threatened? No. Except by snipers just like them.

How is that fair?

How does that make the game fun?

If you're NOT playing a sniper.. is the game fun for you when you get killed by snipers in seconds?

[cougurt]

Aeromaxout, on 01 April 2020 - 08:24 PM, said:

OK, here is how to PROPERLY LRM.


Not intending to self promote... just had a relevant video and though "Show don't tell" applied.

you nearly died 2 minutes in because you stood there exchanging LRMs with a supernova. terrible gameplay and build.

[cougurt]

Vellron2005, on 01 April 2020 - 11:26 PM, said:

And if you peek over the wrong ridge, you lose a torso from an enemy you can't see, and sure as hell can't reach.

if you keep an eye out for the bright blue laser beams they'll actually lead you right back to the enemies that are firing them.

[Ignatius Audene]

Vellron2005, on 01 April 2020 - 11:26 PM, said:

OK, so I see many have condiered this thread as just another "LRM hater" thread.. Haters gonna hate I guess..

But guess what guys.. I didn't create this thread so you could **** your lurmer hate all over it.. that's not the point..

Also, it's not the point to teach people about LRMs and why or why not to use them...

Jeez, can you get past this already, it's getting old?

The WHY I created this thread is because of SNIPERS - namely, those snipers that camp waaaaay back, behind their spawns (you know the people I'm talking about), and how they exploit the OP nature of some Long-range weapons and builds to devolve the game to basically "the side that doesn't use AC2 / ERLL spam looses".

**** LRMs right now. Forget them. Imagine you're a classic medium range brawler, using direct fire weapons like MRMs, ERML, or even a nice lurm-hating SRM bomber.. And if you peek over the wrong ridge, you lose a torso from an enemy you can't see, and sure as hell can't reach. Yes, Snipers expose, but are they really threatened? No. Except by snipers just like them.

How is that fair?

How does that make the game fun?

If you're NOT playing a sniper.. is the game fun for you when you get killed by snipers in seconds?

So u can a. trade better with ac2, erll, eerppc etc
b. pusha (dps dakka or even nsr srm)
C. get in mid range and trade better (vomit, big alpha etc.)
Since b needs team work a and c are easier done as solo.

[Vellron2005]

cougurt, on 02 April 2020 - 12:04 AM, said:

if you keep an eye out for the bright blue laser beams they'll actually lead you right back to the enemies that are firing them.

True.. AFTER they hit you.. and literally take a piece of you. So the argument that sniping from 1000+ meters is better than Lurming because they expose is invalid, because yes, they expose, but if you're not also a sniper, they are in no danger when they expose.

And if you push them, you also have to expose, and they are alot more likely to hit you and kill you than a LRM mech would because a lurmer needs to lock, while direct fire can hit and be back in cover much quicker.

Therefore I really don't understand how sniping is not considered just as bad or worse, and OP as the worst possible Lurmer did before the mega-nerf.

Ignatius Audene, on 02 April 2020 - 12:40 AM, said:

So u can a. trade better with ac2, erll, eerppc etc
b. pusha (dps dakka or even nsr srm)
C. get in mid range and trade better (vomit, big alpha etc.)
Since b needs team work a and c are easier done as solo.

A) If you become a sniper to counter snipers, the game devolves into a sniper-only boring game.. so yuck. No.
B ) Pushing against a sniper has well-known results. Usually death or significant damage. Have machinegun nests in WWI tought you nothing?
C) See also point 2.

BTW, you can do A, B, and C against a LRM boat, and LRM boats were considered OP and were nerfed. (turned into direct fire low-damage ATMs, while their counters were mega-buffed). Would it not be then fair to nerf extreme-range spam? Or do snipers get special nerf-free treatment when compared to runt-of-the-litter LRM community punching bags?

Edited by Vellron2005, 02 April 2020 - 12:58 AM.

[General Solo]

Wow
Just because you can't do it don't mean it's bad, in fact its good and cunningly brilliant...
...Way to counter Lermers who have unique abilities by using a snipers attributes

Sounds like a Match maker issue , due to upward bias frankly.
Skillgap and that.
Nerf the skill gap not the weapon/mech

But thats on PGI
In the mean time carry on.