1579 replies to this topic

[w4ldO]

Excessive Paranoia, on 19 May 2020 - 11:20 PM, said:

PSR / Tier system can't be changed for two reasons and only two reasons:

1: Doing so would require admitting that they'd committed 1000% to a broken system and then ignored everyone showing them in extreme detail how broken it was.

2: Doing so would require putting time and effort into a game that isn't paying them any money, so it would essentially be doing charity work to keep the servers alive even longer, which BTW, also cost them money.

1 is an easy one: they could just change stuff and never tell anyone. the wall of silence is built already anyway.
2 see the post above yours

[Excessive Paranoia]

w4ldO, on 20 May 2020 - 12:27 AM, said:

1 is an easy one: they could just change stuff and never tell anyone. the wall of silence is built already anyway.
2 see the post above yours

I did see it, but I think you don't really realize just how stubborn PGI are... you could do it on your own time, for free, perfectly, and send it to them with no expectation of anything in return, not even a thank you, and they still wouldn't use it. The problem is that they have already decided they are right, and nothing anyone has been able to show them, no matter how detailed, has ever served to move them from that position even by a millimeter. Changing it, even in silence, would be admitting they were wrong, and they are almost literally incapable of doing so. Instead they've doubled down on the system we have so much that they probably actually believe the spin they've put on it.

EDIT: The point I'm trying to make is that we've known since it was created how to fix the PSR system and they've never been willing to change it, even when it might have earned them more money. Now that the game isn't earning anymore, likely the only way it will ever get changed is if PGI decide they don't want to keep the servers on anymore and allow a private server to go up.

Edited by Excessive Paranoia, 20 May 2020 - 12:50 AM.

[w4ldO]

i wasnt here when PSR was introduced, so i didnt read all the comments about it.

guess we are hosed then.

anyone wanna start a fundraiser to buy out Russ and the other owners to take over the company?


edit: just looked it up. wikipedia says 65 employees. W T F do (did) they do all day?

Edited by w4ldO, 20 May 2020 - 01:27 AM.

[MeanMachinE]

DAEDALOS513, on 19 May 2020 - 04:19 PM, said:

Then we'll have to take a look at steam charts for the last 3 months.. they are still on the rise.. a good sign so far, no?
https://steamcharts.com/app/342200#3m

Oh, had not noticed. This definitely is a good sign

I would guess that the March increase has been mostly caused by covid-19. April we saw the 8vs8 group queue which brought back some old players. In May the group combining has helped to bring back even more players. If enough veteran players have come back, this can also have a role why solo play feels different to some even though the returning players would not play in groups.

Edited by MeanMachinE, 20 May 2020 - 02:07 AM.

[50 50]

w4ldO, on 20 May 2020 - 01:16 AM, said:

i wasnt here when PSR was introduced, so i didnt read all the comments about it.

guess we are hosed then.

anyone wanna start a fundraiser to buy out Russ and the other owners to take over the company?


edit: just looked it up. wikipedia says 65 employees. W T F do (did) they do all day?

Go back a few years and we were getting a mech or a mech pack every month.
A couple of maps a year.
Faction Play was going through all it's work.
Scouting mode was added to faction play.
Changes to the queues were happening.
Solaris was introduced.
Escort and Incursion modes added.
The Academy was added.
Comp Mode added.
The Mechcons.

There has been a fair bit really and then add onto all that the development of MW5.

It's been a pretty damn good game for years and many, myself included, don't want to see it end and live in the hope that we will see MWO get some more attention.

Edit:
Btw.
Game just patched for me.
Anyone know what was in that?

Edited by 50 50, 20 May 2020 - 02:00 AM.

[MeanMachinE]

50 50, on 19 May 2020 - 05:23 PM, said:

The decline in the player base, likely brought on by some of the changes that we have now adapted to (engine desync, skill tree etc), really made it difficult to get games and it becomes a self perpetuating problem.

I would say not releasing any new content has been the biggest problem for a while. Also casual units can't really play together easily if there is no group queue. This has led to the situation where one of the most active player segments has lost players.

50 50, on 19 May 2020 - 05:23 PM, said:

Personally I don't see having small groups in the matches as the problem and we should not deny players of any level from being able to create a group.

The argument on allowing new players into the same match with veterans is a more pressing point along with a better PSR system.

It's just as important that a group of new tier 5 players be allowed to create their own group to play the game together with unskilled mechs etc.

But they should not be put into a match against a team that contains a group of players on completely the opposite side of the spectrum.

That is not a problem with having groups in the queue.

I totally agree with you on this. As a side note, the group queue has never taken into account the different player tiers. New players were always pitted against veteran players. This did not matter that much most of the time as there were more groups playing the game. It was also an eye opening experience to go and play group queue when I started playing MWO to see with my friends that we still had a lot to learn

I would also like to remind that the solo queue has always been the free for all testing grounds for all kinds of mech builds, skill tree leveling, c-bill and event grinding, learning new mechs and maps, etc. It really is not a big deal if one or two matches go south. You just start a new match and forget the earlier. Quick play should not be and is not the end-game here. It is just casual rehearsal without any real tactics or coordination for the other game modes. Mixing groups to the solo queue is also good because they add tactics and coordination to the matches + you can also rely on your team now to do something together.

Edited by MeanMachinE, 20 May 2020 - 02:01 AM.

[Horseman]

DAEDALOS513, on 19 May 2020 - 04:19 PM, said:

Really? It honestly felt like i was away for way longer than that..

Maybe it was so traumatic you pushed it out of your memory?

Quote

Shows how much i love this 'damned' game I guess Does that include faction matches?

Quickplay matches only.

Quote

Then we'll have to take a look at steam charts for the last 3 months.. they are still on the rise.. a good sign so far, no?
https://steamcharts.com/app/342200#3m

They've already been on the rise starting with March 1st, however. The queue merge wasn't announced until April 27th, so let's not conflate both situations together.
Last month's data are a bit more accurate and show a slight overall increase with higher peaks after the 27th - hardly a reinvigoration of anything compared to the march 1st to april 27th gains - but one that appears to be already dropping off: https://steamcharts.com/app/342200#1m

50 50, on 20 May 2020 - 01:56 AM, said:

Game just patched for me.
Anyone know what was in that?

The patch was only 4 MB and seems to contain nothing but Solaris S8 decals and warhorn (which is again S4 warhorn, just with a different season displayed during the animation).

Edited by Horseman, 20 May 2020 - 02:06 AM.

[MeanMachinE]

50 50, on 20 May 2020 - 01:56 AM, said:

Btw.
Game just patched for me.
Anyone know what was in that?

Was it the solaris season reset patch?

[Excessive Paranoia]

MeanMachinE, on 20 May 2020 - 02:00 AM, said:

I would also like to remind that the solo queue has always been the free for all testing grounds for all kinds of mech builds, skill tree leveling, c-bill and event grinding, learning new mechs and maps, etc. It really is not a big deal if one or two matches go south. You just start a new match and forget the earlier. Quick play should not be and is not the end-game here. It is just casual rehearsal without any real tactics or coordination for the other game modes. Mixing groups to the solo queue is also good because they add tactics and coordination to the matches + you can also rely on your team now to do something together.

In an ideal world, quick play wouldn't have been the end-game, but then again, in an ideal world, PGI would have put in the effort needed to make a more enjoyable end-game. Unfortunately, this isn't an ideal world and the opportunity for these things to happen has long since passed... PGI have moved on to new projects and MWO is in maintenance mode leaving anyone who still wants to play it in a position to watch it die a slow death. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see this game get some more attention, but in the words of PGI, it just "isn't in the cards". With that in mind, we as a player base have to ask ourselves, do we want it to die slowly or quickly?

For many of us, the answer is obvious, return the solo queue to its previous state because the merged queue is already driving solo players away. Leave it in place long enough and its going to shrink the population of the game significantly. This is an unfortunate reality that the group players just don't seem to grasp... People played solo queue mostly because they wanted to play solo queue, not because they couldn't find a group to drop with. Remove their ability to have an enjoyable experience while in the solo queue unless they find a group to play with and you're likely just going to drive them out of the game entirely. Drive enough away, and the game is gone, period...

Sure, there are probably a decent amount of people who will come back to play with their friends, but let me make this point: There were not enough group players to support the group queue for all these years and yet solo queue stayed strong the entire time, so if the solo players are driven out, there can't possibly be enough group players to support the whole game.

I'm still not saying that groups shouldn't be able to play with each other, but if there is no possible way to do it without burning down the solo queue in the process, then I'm sorry, but the reality is just that you can have your groups or you can have your game, but you cannot have both.

EDIT: For the record, I actually expect my teams to perform much, much worse than they did pre-merge. At least pre-merge we were all on approximately the same page strategically (as opposed to 4+8) and there were rarely situations where whole sections of the team died at once...

Edited by Excessive Paranoia, 20 May 2020 - 05:14 AM.

[Anomalocaris]

FRAGTAST1C, on 19 May 2020 - 08:26 PM, said:

Again, nobody cares about personal experience and our bad-data-taking-devices a.k.a "eyes". There are hours and hours and hours of actual footage from Twitch streams to gloss over and recognize that the stomps have increased. 3%, 4%, 5% from already a stompy environment is a significant amount. It's basic maths and logic that are completely unbiased.

I think one of the most damning things is that in Paul's original post on the goals (hopes, dreams, wishes) for the merge was improved competitiveness. He actually wrote that. Nothing of the sort happened, which again shows that he is either completely uninformed about how his game works for actual players or was just saying things to placate people who didn't know better. Either way is just really crappy business.

I envision Paul sitting in his office with a MWO status screen on his computer with a bunch of moving, colored lines and a few sliders below it. He doesn't know what the lines actually mean to the player experience, but he prefers it when the blue line is highest so he moves sliders until that one goes up and says, "yes, that looks better". Doesn't really help tolerate the state of the game, but it's the only reasonable explanation I can think of for the changes other than absolute malice.

[Nearly Dead]

Well, I don't know what their reasons are for what they are doing, but my reason for playing a game is enjoyment and they have completely destroyed that. Time to stop throwing time and money down the rat hole.

[w4ldO]

eeeeehhhhhrrrrr so is Russ aware or talking in riddles again?



i really hope he doesnt mean to just tighten the PSR window for soup queue

[Anomalocaris]

Wow that twitter thread is annoying. Pseudo really tried to explore some options and just got shut down.

https://twitter.com/...518682153975808

This statement from Russ regarding opt-in was particularly telling:

"I stated several time that simply wasn’t an option- it would take far to many people opting in then was likely to make it work, then your also completely dependent on player behaviour to continue to opt in! Then lastly if all the above worked it means solo queue suffering."

And he stated they couldn't split the group queue out again because it wouldn't survive.

The sheer illogic of all this is mind-boggling.

1) You have a mode that can't survive on its own because no one plays it as is (Russ says it won't survive).
2) Despite a somewhat successful bump in players after going 8v8, that test was cancelled almost immediately with no feedback given
3) Opt-in is not going to fly because either (A) not enough people would do it to make it work or (B if enough did it would hurt solo queue - and it would be completely dependent on player behavior.....

So, the final conclusion is, force solos to take in groups because we know they won't do it if its optional. Despite the fact that merging has hurt solo queue competitiveness. The knots this guy ties himself in to justify a decision that was never thought through in the first place....

Heads up Russ, if you're going to try and force players to play in a way they would never do on their own, many are going to take the option of not playing at all. Every time you guys make a decision that is uninformed by good player feedback (Long Tom!!) you end up losing players because its the only choice they have.

Thank god I don't have a twitter account, I would've lit him up so bad they'd probably ban me. Pseudo's restraint is admirable.

Edited by Anomalocaris, 20 May 2020 - 10:45 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

FRAGTAST1C, on 19 May 2020 - 08:26 PM, said:

Again, nobody cares about personal experience and our bad-data-taking-devices a.k.a "eyes". There are hours and hours and hours of actual footage from Twitch streams to gloss over and recognize that the stomps have increased. 3%, 4%, 5% from already a stompy environment is a significant amount. It's basic maths and logic that are completely unbiased.

It's not personal experience... I'm talking about the actual figure of 5% that you mentioned.. to me that miniscule number isn't going to sway me either way..

[Anomalocaris]

DAEDALOS513, on 20 May 2020 - 11:01 AM, said:

It's not personal experience... I'm talking about the actual figure of 5% that you mentioned.. to me that miniscule number isn't going to sway me either way..

The problem you have is that Russ refused to clarify what was meant by 5% more stomps. We don't know how many stomps there were in the first place. If there were 10% stomps before merge, does 5% more mean 10.5% (negligible) or 15%? He was asked to clarify and refused to even answer, which tells me that the truth of the numbers doesn't look so favorable if you have all the info.

Rule of thumb with Russ and PGI. If they say/announce something, carefully note what they didn't say. Ask follow up questions. If they refuse to answer, then the truth is probably worst case. Basically treat them like politicians.....

[DAEDALOS513]

Anomalocaris, on 20 May 2020 - 11:04 AM, said:

The problem you have is that Russ refused to clarify what was meant by 5% more stomps. We don't know how many stomps there were in the first place. If there were 10% stomps before merge, does 5% more mean 10.5% (negligible) or 15%? He was asked to clarify and refused to even answer, which tells me that the truth of the numbers doesn't look so favorable if you have all the info.

Rule of thumb with Russ and PGI. If they say/announce something, carefully note what they didn't say. Ask follow up questions. If they refuse to answer, then the truth is probably worst case. Basically treat them like politicians.....

So we're back to personal opinion I guess.. i was yelled at for doing that before you see.. for me stomps are about the same as old solo queue was.. ie. the difference isn't statistically significant.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 20 May 2020 - 11:20 AM.

[Nearly Dead]

Funny thing about that 5% more stomps number, it seems like different people are having different experiences. I played several matches this morning and would consider every single one of them a "stomp" or "walkover". Maybe a definition issue, I consider it a stomp if the gap in kills is large (12-0 to 12-3) and there was no viable match, ie the winning team didn't really have to work for it.

I'll follow the discussion here, but unless I see on the forums that things are markedly better I don't plan to redownload the game client. I suspect that PGI will continue to drive off players until the game dies, while blaming it on dropping player numbers.

[Anomalocaris]

DAEDALOS513, on 20 May 2020 - 11:13 AM, said:

So we're back to personal opinion I guess.. i was yelled at for doing that before you see.. for me stomps are about the same as old solo queue was.. ie. the difference isn't statistically significant.

All we know is that PGI said they were up. And then refused to clarify or share anymore data. I've never personally tracked stomps in my own matches. The only person I've seen do it recently was Ash in his group drops on stream and there were a lot of em (using PGIs definition of 12-4 or worse).

[DAEDALOS513]

Nearly Dead, on 20 May 2020 - 11:25 AM, said:

Funny thing about that 5% more stomps number, it seems like different people are having different experiences. I played several matches this morning and would consider every single one of them a "stomp" or "walkover". Maybe a definition issue, I consider it a stomp if the gap in kills is large (12-0 to 12-3) and there was no viable match, ie the winning team didn't really have to work for it.

I'll follow the discussion here, but unless I see on the forums that things are markedly better I don't plan to redownload the game client. I suspect that PGI will continue to drive off players until the game dies, while blaming it on dropping player numbers.

Hey Nearly, that day we grouped up and dropped about 12 matches.. I don't remember experiencing many stomps. It was too bad you left before I could give you some tips.. I can tell you're struggling with the game and instead of yearning to go back to play against players that are as inexperienced as you.. you should strive to improve.. next time I catch you online we'll take a look at some of your builds and get you on the right track.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 20 May 2020 - 11:51 AM.

[Anomalocaris]

Anomalocaris, on 19 May 2020 - 05:22 PM, said:

Furthermore, if you look at average player numbers for the last 30 days we went as high as 520 a few days ago and now we're back down to 515, even though we are now getting rid of the lower numbers from early April in the rolling average. I suspect we'll be back to about 500 within the week, which is a 10% gain over last month, compared to the 21 and 19% gains we saw the previous months.

As a side bet, I'm also going to wager that PGI will run another event this week to try and juice participation numbers even further, but people are probably burned out by now.

Usually don't like to self quote, but I called it on the event. 3 straight events now, whereas there was no event the week prior to the merge. It's like PGI don't give a **** about player input but yet they still want to be able to somehow show that they were right to the same people they don't listen to....smh