1579 replies to this topic

[Larsh]

Brain Cancer, on 29 April 2020 - 10:01 AM, said:

Just some crunching here.

Larsh's group went 5-6. In the five wins, one was a 2-man, four were 4-man.

In the wins:

The 2-man group went 1-2 for damage and tied for kills (2) with much of the team.
The 4-man groups picked up 6/10 (enemy had two selfkills), 9/12 kills, 6/12 kills, and 7/10 kills(1 selfkill, one survivor, hi Louis!) respectively.

Damage counts varied owing to multiple chassis choices.

Pretty spot on analysis on the data there. Also, I would like keep the item that as we dropped in our coordinated groups, we also tend to make an active attempt to voice targets in Voip. We found that when we initiated Voip on our end, others followed through as well.

I think some solo players don't like using Voip for one reason or another (I'm not going to assume their reasoning). But, if the pre-made group is welcome to the idea, Voip can really allow you to merge thoughts and strategies with the rest of the team. We've found this to be the case before this test, and even more so now.

[GM Patience]

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[Brain Cancer]

Larsh, on 29 April 2020 - 10:07 AM, said:

Pretty spot on analysis on the data there. Also, I would like keep the item that as we dropped in our coordinated groups, we also tend to make an active attempt to voice targets in Voip. We found that when we initiated Voip on our end, others followed through as well.

I think some solo players don't like using Voip for one reason or another (I'm not going to assume their reasoning). But, if the pre-made group is welcome to the idea, Voip can really allow you to merge thoughts and strategies with the rest of the team. We've found this to be the case before this test, and even more so now.

You should see how the results are in the opposite tactic.

Use the PUG as a meatshield and be highly opportunistic. Yes, it's selfish but it also tends to reflect the pre-change dynamic of a highly hostile-to-organization solo queue (and maximizes the clarity of what a 4-man group actually tends to do in solo).

[Vxheous]

Brain Cancer, on 29 April 2020 - 10:30 AM, said:

You should see how the results are in the opposite tactic.

Use the PUG as a meatshield and be highly opportunistic. Yes, it's selfish but it also tends to reflect the pre-change dynamic of a highly hostile-to-organization solo queue (and maximizes the clarity of what a 4-man group actually tends to do in solo).

The best 4 mans don't even pug shield, they just take power trade positions on the map thats learned from all that time in comp and just whack a mole solos that wander into the open.

[Orbit Rain]

I think the feedback after a week of this will be more valuable than the one night we've had so far.

[Dee Eight]

Wishmast3r, on 29 April 2020 - 09:55 AM, said:

I have a brilliant idea to solve all the problems and make everybody happy.
We create a new mode called "Battle Royal" for all those nascar loving, meta hating and non team playing people.
It´s like QP, but 24 solo players kill each other till only 1 Mech remains.
No problems with team damage.
Solo players being happy.
And most importantly, they don´t **** up a team based game anymore.
Deal?

It would get abused as a mode

Edited by Dee Eight, 29 April 2020 - 10:39 AM.

[Larsh]

Brain Cancer, on 29 April 2020 - 10:30 AM, said:

You should see how the results are in the opposite tactic.

Use the PUG as a meatshield and be highly opportunistic. Yes, it's selfish but it also tends to reflect the pre-change dynamic of a highly hostile-to-organization solo queue (and maximizes the clarity of what a 4-man group actually tends to do in solo).

Heh, I guess it comes down to personal play style really. My group and I tend to favor the play as a group, and try to involve everyone that we can. Sounds cheesy, but the "There is no I in team" approach.

Can't deny that there are people that will play to be opportunistic and selfish. But, I don't think we can really control that metric. Would be nice if we could see less of this approach though, but I'm just being optimistic on that.

[Brauer]

Larsh, on 29 April 2020 - 10:39 AM, said:

Heh, I guess it comes down to personal play style really. My group and I tend to favor the play as a group, and try to involve everyone that we can. Sounds cheesy, but the "There is no I in team" approach.

Can't deny that there are people that will play to be opportunistic and selfish. But, I don't think we can really control that metric. Would be nice if we could see less of this approach though, but I'm just being optimistic on that.

Posting up in a power position does involve teamwork and is not selfish if you're putting down damage, controlling the map, and getting kills. When playing last night the guys I was with were communicating movements, targets, etc., and working together. The playerbase has taught a lot of people that trying to PUG-whisper is largely futile. I'll do it on occasion when dropping as part of a two-man in FW, and make some basic calls in QP (legs on ASN for example), but calling strats that work is more likely to draw the ire of PUGs than anything in my experience.

[Larsh]

Vxheous, on 29 April 2020 - 10:32 AM, said:

The best 4 mans don't even pug shield, they just take power trade positions on the map thats learned from all that time in comp and just whack a mole solos that wander into the open.

Yep, even better to use Voip, even though it may not be the favored idea here.

I always saw MWO as a team based game that would allow you to organize on the fly with the randoms you had in solo drops. Bonus points if you were able to get a dedicated 12 man in Discord or Team Speak. But, since the playerbase has dropped in the past year, we may want to take this month to re-evaluate our own play styles.

If we are to be grouping Tier 1s to Tier 5s, with old and (shockingly) new players, it might offer everyone a chance to give the lower skilled players a real opportunity to learn the ropes from the higher skilled players. I think one of the biggest issues with MWO is the total lack of a proper tutorial. Even in Tier 5, I kinda saw it as a trial by fire. By the time you really felt like you had a grasp of the game you are already set in Tier 3.

If we are able to make nice, and use Voip to "train" some new players it may re-enforce those proper playing habits that are never taught in MWO in the first place.

Edited by Larsh, 29 April 2020 - 11:15 AM.

[Vxheous]

Larsh, on 29 April 2020 - 10:48 AM, said:

Yep, even better to use Voip, even though it may not be the favored idea here.

I always saw MWO as a team based game that would allow you to organize on the fly with the randoms you had in solo drops. Bonus points if you were able to get a dedicated 12 man in Discord or Team Speak. But, since the playerbase has dropped in the past year, we may want to take this month to re-evaluate our own play styles.

If we are to be grouping Tier 1s to Tier 5s, with old and (shockingly) new players, it might offer everyone a chance to give the lower skilled players a real opportunity to learn the ropes from the higher skilled players. I think one of the biggest issues with MWO is the total lack of a proper tutorial. Even in Tier 5, I kinda saw it as a trial by fire. By the time you really felt like you had a grasp of the game you already set in Tier 3.

If we are able to make nice, and use Voip to "train" some new players it may re-enforce those proper playing habits that are never taught in MWO in the first place.

I pug whisper in broad terms "please hold here, enemy will be x area" "sweep into x area and collapse on them" etc.

[Anomalocaris]

DAEDALOS513, on 29 April 2020 - 09:28 AM, said:

If you don't feel like you're contributing, you're doing something wrong.. either your positioning is off or your builds are weak.. you have to figure out what it is.. don't blame this game mode for that. This is your chance to improve..

C'mon, it's like you're willfully missing the point. I said my contributions won't matter nearly as much when there's a quality group on my team. When an organized 4-man picks a position or strategy and has the builds to execute their will in the match they're going to suck up most of the damage and kills. You can piggy back off them, or go work an opposite flank, but they're going to dictate the direction and outcome of the match in most cases. Saw it in pretty much every match I spectated yesterday.

Solos have been relegated to the back seat now in this mixed queue when a good group drops. And we're not even talking about getting cadets and Tier5s into matches with top level players yet. If you want to maintain your level of competitiveness now, you need to drop in a group. It's what we predicted would happen and it will end up pushing players out of the game. We can argue about how many players, but there will be a measurable loss if this stays as is.

[Larsh]

Brauer, on 29 April 2020 - 10:44 AM, said:

Posting up in a power position does involve teamwork and is not selfish if you're putting down damage, controlling the map, and getting kills. When playing last night the guys I was with were communicating movements, targets, etc., and working together. The playerbase has taught a lot of people that trying to PUG-whisper is largely futile. I'll do it on occasion when dropping as part of a two-man in FW, and make some basic calls in QP (legs on ASN for example), but calling strats that work is more likely to draw the ire of PUGs than anything in my experience.

I guess we've had differencing experiences then. Not saying its a bad thing, just somehow we managed to come to different conclusions, or met different personalities in game. Usually when I call a target, or a map sector, to those not in my group I haven't had problems leading a charge here and there.

Granted not every charge is going to work out, but that's just part of the game.

[DAEDALOS513]

Brauer, on 29 April 2020 - 10:44 AM, said:

The playerbase has taught a lot of people that trying to PUG-whisper is largely futile. I'll do it on occasion when dropping as part of a two-man in FW, and make some basic calls in QP (legs on ASN for example), but calling strats that work is more likely to draw the ire of PUGs than anything in my experience.

Normally I would agree as I have tried countless times to pug whisper without success in 'solo-queue classic'.. but in this new environment for the most part they are actually listening.

[Larsh]

Vxheous, on 29 April 2020 - 10:51 AM, said:

I pug whisper in broad terms "please hold here, enemy will be x area" "sweep into x area and collapse on them" etc.

This is good to see. I tend to whisper here and there and it works. I usually try to call definite targets as well (Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, etc) Had some decent matches like that last night.

[DAEDALOS513]

Anomalocaris, on 29 April 2020 - 10:51 AM, said:

C'mon, it's like you're willfully missing the point. I said my contributions won't matter nearly as much when there's a quality group on my team. When an organized 4-man picks a position or strategy and has the builds to execute their will in the match they're going to suck up most of the damage and kills. You can piggy back off them, or go work an opposite flank, but they're going to dictate the direction and outcome of the match in most cases. Saw it in pretty much every match I spectated yesterday.

Solos have been relegated to the back seat now in this mixed queue when a good group drops. And we're not even talking about getting cadets and Tier5s into matches with top level players yet. If you want to maintain your level of competitiveness now, you need to drop in a group. It's what we predicted would happen and it will end up pushing players out of the game. We can argue about how many players, but there will be a measurable loss if this stays as is.

I have no trouble matching and surpassing the gameplay of groups on my team when I solo.. you can do it too, just figure out where you need improvement.. many times a players build will hold them back.. they will build a mech too hot forcing them to poke and hide instead of designing builds that can sustain fire.. when you have nice cooldown quirks for example.. like on the lct 3m.. (i ran that most of yesterday) you go with 4ml instead of 5.. something is holding you back.. u gotta figure out what that is.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 29 April 2020 - 11:06 AM.

[Vorpal Puppy]

I dropped solo in 17 QP matches last night in NA prime time - here's my take.

For me personally, not as bad as I expected - in some ways, a normal night. I went 9-8 mostly dropping in a dual heavy gauss FNR-5B, although a few games at the end were in a dual LBX20 CPLT-C2. My average match score was 291 and my KDR was just under 2 for the Fafnir which is right in line with my historical performance in that mech.

At my level, which is roughly 75% on Jarl's, I still felt as though I still had some influence on the outcome of a match. My team was only stomped once (using a 12-4 or worse outcome as a stomp) - that was by a 4-man CSPS group. I got completely schooled by those guys. My team stomped the other team on 6 occasions. 5 of the 17 matches were what I would call a close game - 12-8 or closer. All in all, roughly an equal distribution of close games and stomps, which is about what I usually see.

What was very different was the skill level within the matches. There were definitely CADET tags running around who had no business being in some of those matches (never seen that many single digit damage numbers in one night), along side competitive players who were as far above this half-blind old man's skill level as I was above those cadets. (rule #1 cadets: do not stand still and stare at the dual heavy gauss Fafnir)

Even with the groups involved, I am convinced you could do a better job sorting the pugs within the group of 24 players to even out teams more. I know the average skill level of a lot of the folks who drop regularly in NA prime time. By just sorting (by average match score) those properly to balance around the groups you could create closer matches, which are good for everyone.

Some of the spawn locations are going to have to get fixed if the groups are going to stay together in Alpha lance. Between folks being new to the game and Alpha lance not being optimally located for assault mechs on a lot of maps, I was hearing a lot of "wait for the assaults" (Alpha lance assaults) from folks 2-3 grids back when my Fafnir was all the way up in the front with the rest of Bravo and Charlie lances pushing the other teams stragglers.

I don't think there is an easy fix for the tonnage disparity, but it is a bit of a problem for certain builds that run a little lean on ammo when you are suddenly facing 7-8 assault mechs instead of the usual 2-3. My CPLT-C2 ran out of LBX20 ammo in 2 of the 3 games I played it last night.

That's my 2 cents. YMMV

[Slothasaurus]

After a day of playing with the new changes it's what anyone would expect. A group of strong players dominate the match unless there is an equally skilled group to counter that. Before, a highly skilled solo player could influence the outcome of the game but if a few average joes focused you could get that player out of there.

Also not sure if it is a bug or working as intended but some matches now one team will have many more assaults than the other. In some cases one team has a bunch of assaults and the other team has 0 assaults. I know there were cases like that before with the game but it never happened with this much frequency. Few matches ago one team had 6 assaults and the other team had 0.
If it is a bug and should be reported I took screenshots of the matches just in-case.

Kind of disheartening the experience so far, but will keep playing to see if it was just bad luck today.

[Dee Eight]

I generally don't bother with barking orders on comm's... i just provide intel on the enemy disposition... Enemy A is at location B traveling to direction C and has damage or equipment D thru G... etc... people on the team can do with that as they will.

Edit : because the matching uses the group match maker, we are getting some genuinely new Tier 5 players into games with veterans and it shows in their ignoring basic visual clues on the map. I popped two lights with one strike (which takes ten seconds to arrive doesn't it ?) as they stood still behind a terrain feature in the red smoke.

Edited by Dee Eight, 29 April 2020 - 11:24 AM.

[Anomalocaris]

DAEDALOS513, on 29 April 2020 - 11:05 AM, said:

I have no trouble matching and surpassing the gameplay of groups on my team when I solo.. you can do it too, just figure out where you need improvement.. many times a players build will hold them back.. they will build a mech too hot forcing them to poke and hide instead of designing builds that can sustain fire.. when you have nice cooldown quirks for example.. like on the lct 3m.. (i ran that most of yesterday) you go with 4ml instead of 5.. something is holding you back.. u gotta figure out what that is.

Look man, just ignore me from here on out because you're making no sense. There's no way that when you drop with a quality 4 man on your team that your average contribution goes up unless you're a potato who is now surviving long enough to get some extra chip dmg in - and I know you aren't a potato. The damage/kill/match score pie is only so big and they're going to take a bigger chunk than 4 randoms will. It's not a difficult concept.

[Dee Eight]

Slothasaurus, on 29 April 2020 - 11:19 AM, said:

Also not sure if it is a bug or working as intended but some matches now one team will have many more assaults than the other. In some cases one team has a bunch of assaults and the other team has 0 assaults.

"as intended" The old solo queue match maker that balanced tiers and weight classes is NOT being used. The group queue match maker is being used, it ignores tiers and weight classes. It just wants the correct # of players and correct tonnage restrictions to be met. Its treating groups as the tonnage restriction in the announcement post and every other solo is being treated as a group of 1 with a 100 ton maximum. I'm surprised more aren't abusing that yet to only play assaults. And the only way they'll be able to prevent that eventuality is to restrict the group tonnages such that its not possible to play an assault at all by any player in the "group" or that only a single assault can be brought. So say 155 for 2-man, 175 for 3 and 195 for 4. The limits you to a single assault in the group element.

Edited by Dee Eight, 29 April 2020 - 11:34 AM.