1579 replies to this topic

[Spare Knight]

Spare Knight, on 28 April 2020 - 05:56 AM, said:

Wouldn't it be simpler to just take the Win/Loss out of the equation and make it simply match score (adjusted for tonnage)?

My reasoning is thus.

In Quick Play, your team is luck of the draw and because of that, I see times where I get one in 20 wins, or 1 in 20 losses. It is said that because of the luck of the draw, you should average out to 50% wins to losses. Why would luck of the draw be used in the PSR? It makes no sense.

Edited by Spare Knight, 28 April 2020 - 06:25 AM.

[I Come In Peace]

Axys Rageborn, on 28 April 2020 - 05:13 AM, said:

Allowing Solos to opt in to group que is the only way to "make group que great again!"

Allowing people like myself who are looking for a challenge to opt into a more competitive setting allows the following things to happen,

Solo que stays the way it is (good for casuals)
Group que has numbers to fill out games (good for groups)

It also has a knock on effect in that more people can play in groups and then more games can be played faster. If the games are found faster more people will want to group up and wow you have more groups to play with and less solos will be required.

Then with more games, you can improve the MM in group que and make it more competitive / fun for everyone.

Its not that hard to get honestly, with PSR the way it is now and with the changes coming there are gonna be losses and not just in game.

Ps - why is there no world/LFG chat that everyone can see and communicate through? like that would help a lot too.

This idea to allow opting in to group queue makes sense. Sometimes I want to skill up a mech or try a different mech build out and would prefer a more casual atmosphere for this. Sometimes I want the competition of group queue without having to start my own group. More scenarios win if we can opt in.

[Larsh]

I Come In Peace, on 28 April 2020 - 06:33 AM, said:

This idea to allow opting in to group queue makes sense. Sometimes I want to skill up a mech or try a different mech build out and would prefer a more casual atmosphere for this. Sometimes I want the competition of group queue without having to start my own group. More scenarios win if we can opt in.

I would be in agreeance with this.

My only concern, is that do we have enough people playing at one time that would allow for this? It would be a bummer if solo casual players want to play for fun, but the standard solo queue population is depleted. Same would go for the organized group queue as well.

Edited by Larsh, 28 April 2020 - 06:41 AM.

[Dee Eight]

Slothasaurus, on 28 April 2020 - 05:51 AM, said:

This may be a dumb question but how does the person get to tier 1 if they keep sucking match after match? You don't automatically get skill increases just by playing do you? If the person is that bad it would make the team that much weaker making it harder for the team to win.

Because upon a team win, a player is automatically guaranteed to either go up in PSR, or to not lose anything. So a guy who does ZERO POINTS of damage ever game, and is part of a hundred wins in a row by every other player carrying him...will stay at the exact same rank tier rank even when he contributed nothing positive to the team win other than giving the enemy something else to shoot at...They're then considered by the match maker to be the same skill level of a guy who also played 100 games in a row but they they were all loses,. But as long as he did enough damage, kills and other effort to the team each match to combine for between 251 and 400 match score his tier rank also wouldn't change at all. The problem comes in with the players who are part of wins but do minimal effort but still managed a match score of 101 or better as they're tier rank will be increased. Do ten thousand matches that way and poof... welcome to Tier 1. Whereas someone say "above average" to "good" quality might make it to Tier 1 in under two thousand matches and someone "good" to "excellent" would likely do it in under a thousand matches. But as far as the matchmaker is concerned... the guy who does 400+ average match score and has WLR and KDR #s well above 1.00 is treated to be the same ability as a player who has never finished a month even being carried to a WLR above 1.00 and had never finished a month with more kills than deaths, nor have they ever managed to break 200 as their average match score for a month.

[Bud Crue]

Kamikaze Viking, on 28 April 2020 - 05:49 AM, said:

Thankyou Paul for the upcoming test, and proposed changes.

And Im glad that so many people in this thread have finally come to realize that PSR is the Root cause of most of these problems.

I'm curious about this. Seems to me that people, particularly many of the top players of the game (at least the vocal ones), have been telling Paul since day 1 of the current Tier system being put into place, about how bad the system would be/is and the negative impact it would have/has had on the population, etc. But as a topic it was just sort of accepted that this was the status quo and Paul's "it's designed to keep truly experienced players from new players, and its working as intended" view of it would not be changed. But since Paul instituted his 8v8 GQ experiment, just about every thread, regardless of the original topic, ends up discussing the failings of the tier system and how it can be fixed. Is this seemingly renewed emphasis around this topic mere hope that Paul will finally take notice, or did I miss it somewhere that he has given some indication that he is now suddenly willing to take a new look at the tier system?

[Kamikaze Viking]

Bud Crue, on 28 April 2020 - 06:56 AM, said:

Is this seemingly renewed emphasis around this topic mere hope that Paul will finally take notice, or did I miss it somewhere that he has given some indication that he is now suddenly willing to take a new look at the tier system?

Hope, with clearly presented reasoning. Aiming for minimum work for Paul, & maximum gain for the community.

But mostly Hope.

Edited by Kamikaze Viking, 28 April 2020 - 06:59 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Kamikaze Viking, on 28 April 2020 - 06:58 AM, said:

Hope, with clearly presented reasoning. Aiming for minimum work for Paul, & maximum gain for the community.

But mostly Hope.

Damn. I was hoping he had maybe indicated that he would be willing to look into it, and that I just missed it. Well, here's to hoping.

[paradroid2000]

Unbelievable how many people are whining about this!
Its like I am sitting on a couch at home and.. . what should I do.... err... perhaps I go to MWO forum to write some more ******** and complain because that is so much fun!

Isn't it good that PGI is now at least trying to address the group play problem which has been a real problem for quite a while...

[Sniper09121986]

Bud Crue, on 28 April 2020 - 06:56 AM, said:

Is this seemingly renewed emphasis around this topic mere hope that Paul will finally take notice, or did I miss it somewhere that he has given some indication that he is now suddenly willing to take a new look at the tier system?

If Paul has stated anything at all about matchmaker recently, I have yet to see it. So far nobody has even acknowledged that the problem exists.

[YpaH]

Nice try. Let's see where this leads

[4irkaDbIrkaShikabuk]

2-player groups: Min Tonnage 40, Max Tonnage 200
3-player groups: Min Tonnage 80, Max Tonnage 255
4-player groups: Min Tonnage 120, Max Tonnage 280

I think its wonderful idea and I'm glad that finally started to implement it!
And [Redacted] all nascar players who thinks otherwise/

[DAEDALOS513]

Brauer, on 27 April 2020 - 03:34 PM, said:

We'll see. I expect we will see stomps become more common as competent players will group up and I suspect we won't see competent teams facing each other all that often.

Yep, more often competent players will group up.. so hopefully more likely to see them on both sides..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 28 April 2020 - 07:22 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Sneakytrig, on 27 April 2020 - 06:40 PM, said:

Really really good. I've just started playing in the last month, and I've brought another 4 friends/relatives along with me, it has been very frustrating to not be able to play together.

Whether we win or lose will probably be no biggy, it will definitely be funner playing together! Thanks!

Jaecyn, on 27 April 2020 - 06:43 PM, said:

This isn't directed solely at you good person, but this is a good encapsulation of much of the sentiment against making this kind of change I think. I'd just like to offer a view from the other side of things, as a Tier 4 scrub solo player. Not for nothing, but might I actually get to learn something from playing with organized lances operating beside and against me? Since, as has been pointed out several times I literally can't do group drops right now (45+ wait times if I scrape 2 or 3 people together before just giving up and sync dropping), I've never really even had the chance to experience anything like what many here are describing as the 'optimal' experience.

It sure sounds fun!

So I would absolutely be opting in if there was a choice as is being demanded in places. And I think more players than not probably feel the same way. So if I drop with you in the coming weeks, thanks for carrying me / sorry I didn't contribute more. But also, it sure would be nice to get to play against and with you folks and I look forward to doing so. It's kinda bumming me out hearing so much that the feeling's apparently not mutual.

But again, Tier 4 scrub here. So what do I know?

These guys have the right attitude. I keep hearing this game is going to lose players.. well I say the opposite.. not being able to play with a friend is what was costing this game players..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 28 April 2020 - 07:38 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

Jaecyn, on 27 April 2020 - 06:43 PM, said:

This isn't directed solely at you good person, but this is a good encapsulation of much of the sentiment against making this kind of change I think. I'd just like to offer a view from the other side of things, as a Tier 4 scrub solo player. Not for nothing, but might I actually get to learn something from playing with organized lances operating beside and against me? Since, as has been pointed out several times I literally can't do group drops right now (45+ wait times if I scrape 2 or 3 people together before just giving up and sync dropping), I've never really even had the chance to experience anything like what many here are describing as the 'optimal' experience.

Mostly, you'll learn "Gee, how do they make people DIE so fast?" as there isn't as much learning experience time while you're in one cockpit while the grouped up lance is harvesting as many kills as quickly as possible- or you will end learning because you will unfortunately be the one the enemy team lance finds and focuses down, giving you ample time to watch in spectator mode.

Don't expect communication. Most groups use outside VOIP simply because it's a clearer channel and soloers are frequently more of a liability if not an active impediment (if you've ever heard someone going full salt in solo, well expect to hear it more often).

Either way, also expect your grinds to be slower. Being more efficient, most lances will proceed to gobble up the lion's share of kills, leaving you with few if any games of note other than being "Fodder #6" in the ranks once you hit Rank 3+ and can be included in the same games as most groups.

And if it's a lance that can be in T4 games? Cringe, because odds are you're about to experience the joys of people in accounts they should not be, looking for target practice far below their skill levels.

[Brain Cancer]

Spare Knight, on 27 April 2020 - 07:15 PM, said:

Please fix the PSR. It doesn't work. I don't belong in tier 2 or tier 1 and I maybe I will ever belong there. Sometimes, I get over 1,000 damage and 3 to 5 kills, but it's not a common occurrence for me. It just means I got lucky to be in the right place and out out of position like I normally am. I just don't have the strategy experience yet.

Sincerely,
Spare Knight (formerly TritiumKid)

The horrifying thing is that PSR is working precisely as intended. We know, because it has been working like this for years, even after it's processes were determined by people with a bit of math knowhow, issues have been repeatedly described to the devs, and the entire thing has been left this way with Paul's tacit curse blessing.

By feeding lower-skill players straight into the woodchipper, in order to make sure the most *ahem* enthusiastic players continue to get matches, even if that means the matches are filled by people like yourself.

Z Paradox, on 27 April 2020 - 09:56 PM, said:

Removed post

Paul has been doing the right thing for Paul for years to get the results he desires.

That, much like having a group of 4 in solo queue, does not mean what is the right thing for a better MWO.

[Brain Cancer]

StuntChicken007, on 28 April 2020 - 04:50 AM, said:

You guys should all work for PGI. Hell, I bet if they hired you all the game would be fixed INSTANTLY lol. You guys have skillz for realz. Hell, why don't you guys just MAKE the game you want to play? Make it free and make every game a win. See Easy fix RIGHT? Make the pros play only other Pros and the noobs play only other noobs. I myself try to learn from the good players and find it enjoyable for a win or a loss.Can you imagine if when the new players joined in they never had the ability to hear an old skooler call the shots or lead the team to a win? = Noobs Forever. Like me LMAO.

No number of hires would change anything, as the problems have always been at the top, making their money regardless, and having very little competition to create change. Most results that actually would cause real change would be felonies, not hirings.

[Brain Cancer]

Spare Knight, on 28 April 2020 - 05:19 AM, said:

Being a noob, I consider it an honor when one of the good players will drop call a game. They don't even have to be a great player. Any co-ordination is better than no co-ordination. I am improving and will continue to do so, because of the good guys that help us to learn.

Groups, you are going to find usually have their own coms set up outside the in-game VOIP. Less interference, better quality. If anything, this will likely result in less co-ordination as the average group will get more effective results being silent than chatting with the (unfortunately frequently salty or disruptive) PUGs.

You're better off finding one of those lances and getting in while the getting is good until the population ends up contracting again.

Slothasaurus, on 28 April 2020 - 05:51 AM, said:

This may be a dumb question but how does the person get to tier 1 if they keep sucking match after match? You don't automatically get skill increases just by playing do you? If the person is that bad it would make the team that much weaker making it harder for the team to win.

Actually, they basically do. Even a horrid player that ends up being carried a bit less than half of the time (that is, a W/L of 0.5) is quite capable of actually gaining on their tier bar. The system is heavily biased towards the positive- designed to get all but the absolute worst and toxic players into a high enough tier to be fodder for the matchmaker.

[D V Devnull]

MovinTarget, on 27 April 2020 - 01:23 PM, said:

I just came back after 1.5 years and this???

I feel the exact same way.

This blasted pandemic drove me nuts enough to be undead and hop in a Mech again. But then I came to find I didn't have enough time to launch for any reasonable match count, even though I should be virtually twiddling my thumbs. What are the odds, huh?

Unfortunately, I'm betting the effects of this change will result in negative effects against the Events that Matt Newman has been putting up for those who have been around since April 2019, thus forcing him to have to lay in an extra extension that he didn't expect to find desirable. Effectively, one might jokingly say that Paul Inouye unintentionally & accidentally shot Matt Newman in the foot. However, that prediction is only good if this change to the MatchMaker doesn't totally sink MWO in entirety. But hey, that's just my guess...

~D. V. "wonders if this would have gone better with not-so-mutilated lock-on weapons" Devnull

[Valley Pirate]

First off, to everyone complaining about 'yet another bad move,' QUIT. YOUR. BITCHING. You're a lot of the same people complaining that the other 11 people on your team all suck and that's why you lost. At the very least, give PGI some credit for doing SOMETHING in response to all the whining that's ALREADY been happening (it's been a stomp or wipe in solo a lot of the time for a while now; this change just lets you have fun with friends while that happens).

Second, maybe give a few hours over the next month or so to participate and work WITH devs to support the game you're getting FOR FREE. Stop expecting that your views should be prioritized over anything else. I can't imagine how it would feel to be a dev and have literally every move criminalized so badly. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Kudos to them for doing something anyway.

That said, I expect PGI to be open with the data they're gathering with anyone who asks. If it's really going to be a community experience/decision, that much is minimum. I also whole-heartedly agree that ranking needs fixed - DESPERATELY. I've been in tier 2 for a while, and for a long time felt like I didn't belong there because my skill was too low. Fortunately now I do fairly well even in lost games, but this still needs adjusted.

[J a y]

Scenario 1: four pugs end up on a team that has two lances of competitive players. The pugs make 9,000 cbills each and gain no experience. They possibly die.

Scenario 2: four pugs end up on a team fighting against two lances of competitive players. The pugs make 9,000 cbills each and gain no experience. They die.


Unless there’s a great reworking of the PSR system, this doesn’t work out in favor of the solo players.